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Paelos
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Reply #70 on: June 01, 2016, 09:34:07 AM

I remember when I completed Lich King on fuckin normal with my guild, and then in 25-man in the guild alliance I was in.'

It was fun and good, and I enjoyed it. I'm still salty that Cataclysm destroyed my release-day guild.

I'm still salty it destroyed both my release day guild and my raiding alliance. The guild held on for a while, but I checked and it has no activity as of this week. It's dead.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 09:36:52 AM by Paelos »

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Reply #71 on: June 02, 2016, 12:22:52 PM

I know, I was a part of that raid alliance. :P

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Paelos
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Reply #72 on: June 03, 2016, 11:28:30 AM

I know, I was a part of that raid alliance. :P

I'm forgetful in my 30s.  why so serious?

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Khaldun
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Reply #73 on: June 15, 2016, 08:19:16 PM

Having last played in 2013, my daughter asked me to reup for a while to help her level 89 toon with my level 85 rogue. So I did, and that puts me in Mists of Pandaria. Instantly reminded of why I unsubbed--every design idea that was getting bad in Cata is worse in Pandaria. Rigid linearity, forcing me to play for a while as NPCs, acting like the appeal is the dull-as-dishwater narrative and aggravating characters rather than controlling my own toon and having my own adventures. I guess I can stick it out to get into Draenor and then Legion when it's out and help her some--gonna have to theorycraft again and find out where rogues are at now. But man. While a lot of the rest of the gaming world was either making better stories *or* making better worlds, here's poor old WoW as stuck in a rut as it's possible to be stuck.
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Reply #74 on: June 16, 2016, 06:16:19 AM

The whole narrative shtick is even worse in the Legion beta. The only nice thing is there's no established "Starting zone." You can pick any of the 5 zones to begin with. I'm not sure how you move on to the next one as i've only bothered to put in 3-4 hours total.

Having an Artifact weapon from the get go is also not as nice as it might sound.
1) Everything is balanced around knowing exactly what iLevel your weapon will be
2) Since you can't transmog Artifacts everyone is running around with this rare one-of-a-kind item.  awesome, for real


In other beta news, having transmogs turn into an interface like Wardrobe is much nicer than the old "stow it and remog it" bullshit. Too bad I won't be paying for it. A too little-too-late change.

Oh, and as far as I can tell, yes, your Garrison is as abandoned as your Pandaria farm. Nice key feature, guys. Glad so much of the last Expansion revolved around it.

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Reply #75 on: June 16, 2016, 06:42:28 AM

Basically going back into WoW is like discovering in perfect crystalline form why MMOs basically failed. I don't even think it's the time factor--it's that they're the opposite of "worlds". WoW is like the biggest, most complicated version of Dragon's Lair ever--the screen blinks, you pull the arcade stick, you get another scene. It doesn't feel even remotely free or open, and it feels empty of life or activity most of the time. All that building of visual space to no end. Will I ever be back in the three places I just went through this morning in Pandaria? Likely not, only if I made an alt, and for the same amount of minimal-as-I-can-be as the last time if so. Do I care about the creatures I'm seeing? No, unless I have to carve out their livers or something for a lazy NPC who is picking his ass while I do his laundry.
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Reply #76 on: June 17, 2016, 12:41:46 PM

I'm not going to nit-pick your points, as to each their own and its points we've all argued before. But to address this for clarity sake:

I'm not sure how you move on to the next one as i've only bothered to put in 3-4 hours total.

That's the nice thing about what's they're doing with the leveling this time around. You can start your progress wherever and whenever you want to. All of the quests, their rewards, and all NPCs involved all scale to your level. If you want to zone hop to hang out with friends one night and progress on the story in another zone the next night, it's fine.

To kick start in any of the five zones, you just get the breadcrumb quest(s) from your class hall mission table.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 12:44:33 PM by luckton »

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Reply #77 on: June 17, 2016, 12:52:38 PM

Rigid linearity, forcing me to play for a while as NPCs, acting like the appeal is the dull-as-dishwater narrative and aggravating characters rather than controlling my own toon and having my own adventures.


In retrospect, there are two primary reasons I drifted away. One is the above, Vashjir was a somewhat cool zone, but roughly 1/3 of it was spent not playing my toon. It makes the alt experience terrible, as it's the same thing over and over every time I tried to play. The second reason is the dramatic changes to classes each expansion. It's as if they never really figured out a vision for what they wanted the game to be.

I've always wondered if they do any type of A/B testing during the design process. If they do, I would like to be a fly on the wall for that.
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Reply #78 on: June 25, 2016, 04:17:38 PM

Having sped through Pandaria, I will say that it's possibly the worst expansion in the history of the game, at least for me. I hated every second of it. Warlords, in narrative terms, at least *starts* right: now I'm not once again apprenticed to some fuckhead NPC collecting toilet paper so he can wipe his ass, I'm hanging with the big dogs and acknowledged as somebody who has a few miles on him. That inevitably abrades some once you're out levelling, but they do a lot of small iterations right (treasures, silver dragons, garrisons). But on the other hand, the garrison thing is both genius and completely fucked up. It creates a feeling of physical isolation, but I'm still listening to 13-year old boys talking about their views of women and race and so on in /trade while I'm in my garrison, which makes the typical mouth-drooling dumbshittery even more alienating in a certain way--it has a kind of ghostly feeling, like an amputated limb. Like a game that was built around thousands of people being in the same world that doesn't know how to do that any more but also doesn't really know how to be a satisfying solo-centered experience. It's really interesting the specific moments where Warlords stops holding your hand and explaining what will happen next--those moments tend to teeter exactly on that point.
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Reply #79 on: June 25, 2016, 04:39:38 PM

I actually had a bit of fun with WoD so far.  Probably the most fun I've had in WoW since WotLK.
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Reply #80 on: June 25, 2016, 07:48:18 PM

I'll grudgingly admit that the content in WOD isn't really bad (the leveling experience is pretty damn good compared to all other expansions), it's just that after you hit 100 and run a few dungeons, you're pretty much done unless you want to get in a hamster wheel that's not particularly interesting compared to previous expacs.

Oh, and the leveling experience thing? It's good until you finish Nagrand... at which point it goes full Metzen, because duh. why so serious?

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Reply #81 on: June 25, 2016, 08:05:56 PM

Yep, WoD had a great leveling experience. One of the best in years and it was pretty fun during that.

However, at 100 you were thrown many, many, many grinds to do anything at all. None of them were compelling or particularly fun and the only reason I kept going was raiding with my guild. When that blew-up I stopped playing.

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Reply #82 on: June 25, 2016, 08:30:12 PM

I just got flying, which was my primary goal.  Now it's just trying to build up some gold in case I actually buy Legion.  Part of me just wants an MMO to play though. 
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Reply #83 on: June 26, 2016, 04:52:36 PM

If they can deliver patch content at a decent pace as opposed to rushing out the next expansion, Legion might just redeem a lot of things. They've got the leveling/questing thing down to a flipping science at this point, and the aforementioned criticisms of WoD are getting addressed with Legion.

End-game is going to be at least three raid content tiers. Aside from that, Bliz hopes to keep people coming back by adopting D3's methodology on two fronts:

- World quests (Adventure Mode): Randomly generated world quest/content that you can tackle at your discretion. No more daily quests hubs. All of the random quests you can do are on your map, their requirements, and their rewards are all on display for you to choose. Some quests will only be available for a day (maybe even a few hours?), while others may be week-long ventures. And it's every kind of quest they've done to date: regular quests, rare elite spawns, rare spawns, pet battles, outdoor PvP activities, world bosses, special dungeon activities, profession activities, and so on.

- Challenge/Mythic+ (Rifts): The dungeon variety for launch is already going to be huge compared to WoD and MoP; another lesson learned from those two. To add on to it, you can customize the difficulty ad infinitum at 110 by tailoring the dungeon's handicaps to your pleasure.

I know, I sound like a fanboy, but I can't help it. Legion's looking better and better with each beta patch.

From a lore perspective, look on the bright side:


"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

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Reply #84 on: June 26, 2016, 08:06:13 PM

Yeah, the turn over from levelling to 100, which I hit on Friday, to GRIND THE FUCK OUT OF EVERYTHING is brutal. It's actually kind of confusing--you see this beautiful big zone sitting there on the map but the game is saying, "Run some instances, get some shit that Khadgar wants you to get, um, do this thing and that thing" and nobody even mentions the jungle place. And the grind endgame stuff is especially brutal and unfun from what I can see. People can hardly be bothered--I joined some pugs and it was like everyone was whatevs, did we wipe, who cares.

The Proving Ground thing was interesting, though. It made me theorycraft my level 100 build in a way I hadn't really bothered during levelling. So that was helpful. Kind of well-designed for teaching basics of mob behavior in raids.
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Reply #85 on: June 26, 2016, 08:45:06 PM

Yea, Proving Grounds and Brawler's Guild are both great. Thing is, though, they were added in MOP, WOD just recycled their content 1:1... plus Brawler's Guild at least is going away for Legion (not sure about Proving Grounds).
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 08:46:43 PM by Zetor »

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Reply #86 on: June 27, 2016, 12:34:01 AM

Proving Grounds is "going away" in that it's no longer a requirement before you can get into Heroic dungeons. Bliz's justification is Mythic+ mode; you can't LFG queue for it anyways, so why require scrubs to prove their worth before getting into an auto-matchmaker for relatively low-difficulty normal/heroic dungeons? The good players will be forming groups of reliable friends/guildies...people they can trust to know what they're doing. As a feature that you use for theorycrafting and practice, it should still work, but no one knows if quick-access to it from your class hall will be there.

Brawler's Guild is officially "going on hiatus" with Legion launch. Whether it will return with new matches and content at some point in Legion remains to be seen.

And if you want to talk about recycled content, let's talk about how Blizzard isn't making any new PvP battlegrounds, and as far as open PvP goes, Ashran is getting reused for lvl 110. I mean, I'm not a PvP kind of player, but I imagine for the hardcore PvPer, no new content on that front may be a little disheartening. There also won't be PvP-specific gear anymore, and you have a whole new, separate PvP-talent system to learn. Bliz got tired of balancing talents around PvE/PvP together, so they just made two separate trees from each class.

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Reply #87 on: June 27, 2016, 03:27:10 AM

Yeah about fucking time therein.


Though I'm annoyed to find they took back the old pvp titles. I worked hard for that Knight-captain and the bone I was thrown of Bloodcaptain is a terrible title.

I can't get past the panties - Alluvian
I really like the cocks. - Lantyssa
People rarely believe just how good I am at sucking. - Lantyssa
I love the swinging dongs - Signe
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Reply #88 on: June 27, 2016, 09:55:42 AM

Also amusing in Warlords: pickpocketing is actually fun and vaguely useful. It's not that hard to get 5000 Dingy Coins in a couple of hours of tooling around Tanaan looking for silver dragons and doing quests.
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Reply #89 on: June 27, 2016, 01:44:22 PM

Honestly, luckton's last post made me somewhat interested in Legion. Then I checked out the changes and now apparently my resto shaman lost a ton of utility and has the rest of it locked up behind the pvp honor system, including things like earth shield? My survival hunter is now going to be a melee class with traps (wtf)? No longer possible to zoom out for battlefield awareness in large fights? etc etc. Dudes, c'mon.

Also, while there's no real pvp gear disparity anymore, you actually unlock pvp abilities as you gain 'prestige', so Xxséphiróthxz will now have some extra bullshit abilities he can spam at you instead! Though at least there's some potential counterplay for that.

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Reply #90 on: June 27, 2016, 01:56:28 PM

The hunter changes are the most infuriating and another great example of listening to the loudest forum warriors over having any sort of a clear vision of the classes. "Rexxar is a hunter and HE's Melee! I wanna be a melee hunter!"

Yup.

They also stripped a lot out of all the classes to further streamline the specs yet again. Hunters lost aspect of the Stun (Cheetah) turning it into a 3-5 second buff, traps are gone from everyone but survival..

Hell here's the overview page: http://www.wowhead.com/guides/classes/legion/hunter#abilities-marksmanship


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I really like the cocks. - Lantyssa
People rarely believe just how good I am at sucking. - Lantyssa
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Reply #91 on: June 27, 2016, 02:43:09 PM

While playing an exclusively-melee hunter sounds pretty shit, I hated when they removed the melee abilities entirely and made them a 100% bow/gun class. I mained hunter in vanilla PVP, and my melee abilities were often surprisingly effective (not the least because they expected me to keep backpedaling).

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Reply #92 on: June 27, 2016, 06:32:04 PM

They've always had a hard time trying to balance three ranged specs with Hunters. A pet-friendly spec and a not-so-pet friendly spec were easy, but two not-so-friendly pet specs was hard. Making Survival a melee-spec serves a lot of purposes; it allows them to easily fit ranged pet-friendly skills in Beast Mastery, ranged not-so-friendly pet skills in Marksman (they did try experimenting with Marksman being a non-pet spec completely, but it didn't pan out so well with a chunk of testers. The option to go "lone wolf" is still there, but can now be picked up at level 15 instead of 100), and pet-friendly melee stuff for Survival. Yes, it sucks when you're used to one way of playing already, but this is pretty par for the course with Bliz every expac now. At least in giving up the yearly-goal, you'll stick with the playstyle a little longer before they change things up again.

For Resto Shaman, yeah, Earthen Shield got relegated to a PvP talent. And some stuff got culled. What you may not have seen is the Earthen Shield Totem talent they added at the lvl 75 tier. Also, every class is getting culled in some form or another. What isn't being advertised as much is the revamped talent trees, which give a lot of active and passive options, and the active and passive options you're going to get from your artifact weapon. In the case of Resto Shaman, you'll be getting the Gift of the Queen spell.

I have no qualms about loosing Aspect of the Stun. It should have died in a fire a long time ago, or at least been disabled after the first hit by an enemy against anyone under the influence of it.

Finally, regarding the camera nerf, here's a sample of what's happening. You be the judge of whether it's a loss to you or not.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

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Reply #93 on: June 27, 2016, 07:12:48 PM

And if you want to talk about recycled content, let's talk about how Blizzard isn't making any new PvP battlegrounds, and as far as open PvP goes, Ashran is getting reused for lvl 110. I mean, I'm not a PvP kind of player, but I imagine for the hardcore PvPer, no new content on that front may be a little disheartening. There also won't be PvP-specific gear anymore, and you have a whole new, separate PvP-talent system to learn. Bliz got tired of balancing talents around PvE/PvP together, so they just made two separate trees from each class.
I  think they shy away  from  more PvP battlegrounds because BG's arent really where they have been drifting for the focus of PvP for a while. Legion does get two new Arenas from what I understand, as well as the complete overhaul of pretty much everything mechanically in regards to PvP.

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Reply #94 on: June 27, 2016, 08:52:08 PM

Aspect should have been switched to a "turn it off" yes, and that's all that needed to happen. Now Hunters have a longer CD run boost than other classes and no passive 20%. 3 min CD for a runspeed boost? It's fucking stupid. Ask priests how much no passive boost sucks running back from wipes.

It's no more difficult to manage 3 ranged specs than it is for Mages, 4 specs for Druids, or two healing specs on Priests. It just takes more vision than, "Fuck I dunno, they have a bow and some pet. Fuck 'em there's a few hundred we need to thin 'em out."

Are you seriously trying to argue the camera thing isn't a nerf? That nothing was lost? Fantastic, go play in 1st person mode then. It's the equivalent camera loss from the new max. Surely not noticeable at all.

I mean, for fuck's sake, you made me do Photoshop.


No need to keep defending bad decisions. We know you love the game, even after all the shit thrown on you.

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I really like the cocks. - Lantyssa
People rarely believe just how good I am at sucking. - Lantyssa
I love the swinging dongs - Signe
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Reply #95 on: June 27, 2016, 10:48:16 PM

Honestly, I'm sympathetic to the entire thing with differentiating the three hunter specs yada yada.

BUT. In my mind, there were three things that differentiated hunters from caster dps: 1] traps 2] doing mainly physical damage at range and 3] pets (mail armor isn't a differentiator, cf ele shaman or even boomkin). So far these three things were represented by all of the specs to some degree... except now if you want traps, you MUST go survival (melee), if you want pets that are more than a sideshow, you MUST go BM, and if you want to pew pew at range with any variance to your shots, you MUST go marksman.

My hunter's been SV ever since I created the char in WOTLK*, and it's been consistently fun in each xpac. Sure, there were a few changes, but it had a distinct flavor that wasn't available via MM or BM, like the ability to layer traps, and (this was huge for me) the entire "lock and load" idea of getting free explosive shots when someone is caught in a trap, which was both fun on a gameplay level and highly thematic. Now I guess it's sort of like a fury warrior in mail armor and a pet? White Lions in WAR sucked, man. BM never appealed to me, and I don't see anything unique in MM anymore (expecting to go with the lone wolf build due to no more mend pet). The fact that Lock and Load is now a random autoshot proc instead of a consciously triggered proc off a successful trap is pretty telling on its own.

* I did play a hunter briefly in vanilla, but never got him past level 30 or so... and back then I definitely wouldn't have gone SV (lacerate, lol). But that's vanilla and the era of worthless specs for ya.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 11:10:19 PM by Zetor »

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Reply #96 on: June 27, 2016, 11:19:58 PM

Double post, but I didn't want to put this mini-rant together with the hunter stuff.

So yeah, hunter's out, but my main was a resto/ele shaman anyway. I look up a few ele gameplay videos, it actually seems pretty decent! Thing is, though, with the way artifact weapons level up, I'll be leveling the offspec artifact weapon of my shaman, which means I'll have to grind for some unknown amount of time at 110 to get my resto artifact to a functional state. Leveling as resto seems like a horribly bad idea, with single mobs taking over 30 seconds to kill while my ele shaman can probably 3-shot them. I guess I could level as ele and spec switch to resto before turning in quests... nope.avi. Why can't healers have decent DPS when soloing? It's not like tank DPS is bad (if anything, it looks like prot warriors are bursting things down pretty hard, and blood DK aoe is ridiculous as expected), or DPS classes have zero options for self-healing / damage mitigation. Other games solved this problem long ago (Warspeech for LOTRO minstrels, Cleric Stance for FFXIV white mages). But I guess my resto shaman has to cast Chain Lightning 14 times to kill that group of 3 linked trash mobs while doing regular questing.

e: okay, I did some more reading and apparently it's not 100% doom-and-gloom if this post is to believed... most of artifact power comes from consumables, so just stash them while leveling in a DPS spec with a DPS weapon, then dump them into the healing artifact weapon at 102 (also start doing dungeons at that point). Also there seem to be massive diminishing returns after artifact level 13, so leveling the off-spec artifact to that point is also an option
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 09:16:51 AM by Zetor »

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Reply #97 on: June 28, 2016, 02:06:30 AM

Eh, Personally, other then "ranged physical damage" instead of "ranged magical damage" (and even that isnt much of a thing any more for some hunters pecs), I always thought the main difference between Hunters and other ranged classes was always mobility.   Evver since they removed the Cast While Moving talent for warlocks, hunters have been the only class that can pretty much put out 100% (or damn close to it) of their DPS output while on the move.  I mainly play BM, and I dont think I have a single ability in my entire tookit that can not be used while moving.   Which is pretty damn broken imo.

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Reply #98 on: June 28, 2016, 03:19:24 AM

Playing a private server made me realize I really like how simple vanilla is. I liked my rotation being Shadow Bolt spam. I liked that Blizzard didn't design specs around specific rotations. I liked that raids were less about execution and more about preparation. In PvP, fights were much more like rock paper scissors because everyone had such limited options but over time they just started giving every class everything. CC, mobility, and defensive CDs for everyone. Classes used to be so much more distinct, and not just the abilities, they would have their own reagents and their own class quests. Do they even do class quests anymore?

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Reply #99 on: June 28, 2016, 09:21:30 AM

I think this is one of many design cul-de-sacs that Blizzard got trapped in as early as the first expansion. The more they saw balance as the major issue to tweak between and within expansions, the more that argued for class homogenization. Every single difference between classes that made a difference became suspect, because it might represent asymmetry and thus imbalance. This gets stoked further by a perception that their main clientele are the kind of forum warrior/theorycrafters who complain bitterly about small differences in DPS/healing/tanking metrics across class. Homogeneity not only drives towards 'balance', it makes the game cheaper and easier to live manage--it's much less complicated to figure out what's going on when a class ascends up the charts of popularity or effectiveness.

Everything about the game in that sense is being designed towards being more streamlined, more predictable, more easily managed. But the rough edges and quirks are to some extent one of the sources of the charm of an MMO, at least for people interested in exploration and "worldliness".
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Reply #100 on: July 01, 2016, 04:51:01 PM

Class quests are making a huge comeback in Legion thanks to Class Halls and Artifact weapons.

Also, new expansion tech continues to blur the lines between why we even bother having realms in the first place:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745655899#1

Quote
With Legion on the horizon, we wanted to let you know of an upcoming change that will open up additional grouping opportunities for players. As of the expansion pre-patch, players on North American, Latin American, and Oceanic realms will be able to group together in the open world no matter what realm their party or raid members are on. Players will also be able to see all available groups within the Group Finder, regardless of realm. This update will make it easier than ever for people to play together and group up for adventures like the new World Quests in Legion.

Additionally, reset timers for recurring in-game activities such as daily/weekly quests and raid/dungeon lockouts will be updated to a single unified lockout time of 15:00:00 UTC (8 a.m. PDT / 1 a.m. AEST) for all North American, Latin American, and Oceanic realms. This change will make it more convenient for players, as you will only need to keep track of one reset time. Weekly resets will occur on Tuesdays (early Wednesday mornings for Oceanic realms) at this time.

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Reply #101 on: July 01, 2016, 05:14:19 PM

What better way to hide a shrinking playerbase without folding servers? It's actually quite smart and makes it less likely for people to leave because the game is becoming a ghost town.

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Reply #102 on: July 01, 2016, 06:32:50 PM

Zul'Jin is a ghost town Alliance side.  When I do see people in chat or in world they are all French Canadian.   Ohhhhh, I see.
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Reply #103 on: July 01, 2016, 07:19:26 PM

I imagine by WoW 8.0 they'll have found a way to say "fuck it, realms are dead" and just let people create 20 characters max on one big pooled server.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

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Reply #104 on: July 01, 2016, 10:03:03 PM

Speaking of which... is there any point in playing on a PVP server at this point? World PVP was sorta fun in vanilla/bc and sometimes WOTLK, but since then it's been basically just a guarantee that you'll get ganked and camped a few times during leveling by max-level people, and the mandatory daily quest / grinding area at max level will be extra annoying.

I wish Blizz offered a one-time opportunity for guilds to move between server types, I know my guild (those that are still interested in WOW, anyway) would move from PVP to PVE in a heartbeat.

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