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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Eve Online  |  Topic: Instant skill training: strip-mining your strip-mining skills for fun and profit 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Instant skill training: strip-mining your strip-mining skills for fun and profit  (Read 6236 times)
Sir T
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Reply #35 on: February 09, 2016, 07:00:02 AM

Yeah but they vary wildly. From one

http://nosygamer.blogspot.hu/2016/02/guesstimating-cost-of-skill-point.html

Quote
Guesstimating The Cost Of Skill Point Injectors
Whether we like the feature or not, skill trading is coming to EVE Online on 9 February. The time for debate is long past, so I will put on my prognosticator's hat and and attempt to determine the cost players will pay in order to advance their characters more quickly. The figure I came up with is 500 million to 600 million ISK. How did I come up with that price range? Time to show my work.

First, the professional ghouls with their clone farms have to cover the subscription price. I imagine those running the farms will PLEX their accounts. What is the cost of a PLEX? Currently, the price is hovering around 1.2 billion ISK. I expect that the price of PLEX will increase as skill point injectors become more popular, but for now 1.2 billion ISK is a fairly round number.

Next, how many skill points can a clone generate in a 30-day period? Assuming I know how to use EveMon properly, a character with +5 learning implants can generate 2,700 skill points in an hour, or 1,944,000 in a month. With each skill point injector holding 500,000 skill points, that means a single account can generate a total of 3.888 skill injectors per month. For simplicities sake, let's round the number up to 4 skill injectors.

To merely cover the subscription price, the skill point injector manufacturer must charge at least 300 million ISK per injector. If the clone farmer is thinking long term, then substitute the actual figure of 3.888 skill injectors and the total to cover the subscription cost is 308.6 million ISK.

But wait, the farmer also has to purchase the skill extractor from the cash shop. Once again, the clone farmer will not want to spend real life cash, so will purchase a second PLEX. The conversion rate of PLEX to Aurum is 3,500 AUR per PLEX.

Now for the 64 million ISK question. How much will CCP charge for the skill extractor? As of the time I write this post, CCP has not said. My someone educated guess is between $2-$3 USD. If I were setting the odds, I would put the over/under at $2.50 USD per skill extractor.

Why $2.50? Because I believe that CCP is targeting the player with between 5 million and 50 million skill points. CCP will want to charge the player for the amount of training time saved by purchasing and using skill injectors. The number of skill points gained per injector use is below:

    < 5 million total skillpoints = 500,000 skillpoints per injector
    5 million 50 million total skillpoints = 400,000 skillpoints per injector
    50 million 80 million total skillpoints = 300,000 skillpoints per injector
    > 80 million skillpoints = 150k skillpoints per injector

Since a player in the target skill point range would need to purchase 5 injectors, that means manufacturers would need to spend $12.50 USD in order to create enough injectors to supply a one month supply of skill points. Looking at the subscription price chart, a three-month sub costs $12.95 per month and a six-month sub costs $11.95 per month.

Now for the key. How much aurum can one buy for $2.50? The below graphic from the account management page gives a clue:

Aurum prices in USD
I figure the price from the $5 amount, or 450 AUR. If purchasing PLEX in-game to convert to aurum, that means a clone farmer can get 7.78 skill extractors per PLEX. For the sake of the math, I will round the figure up to 8. So the monthly manufacturing costs per clone must include additional half a PLEX, or 600 million ISK, to cover the purchase of aurum. That brings the total monthly production cost per account to 1.8 billion ISK, or 450 million ISK per skill injector.

Will the traffickers of skill injectors sell their products at cost? Hardly. But what is a good mark up? I think 33%, which brings the total up to 600 million ISK per skill injector. Since one account can create 4 skill injectors per month, that means two accounts should just about generate enough ISK to purchase one PLEX in order to pay for someone's main account.

I personally won't enter the skill injector market. Besides the thought that extracting skills from clones is icky, I am not sure if the demand for skill points will really bear a 600 million ISK price. Personally, I do not believe so. CCP would do better with a $2 USD, or 360 AUR, price point. The only problem with that price is that some illicit RMTers may try their hands at clone farming. Still, I think the big RMT operations won't bother with the low profit margins involved with skill point training. Of course, I'm probably wrong. At least I won't have long to wait to find out.

To another http://greedygoblin.blogspot.ie/2016/02/skill-injector-price.html

Quote
Noisy wrote a piece on skill injector price and I completely disagree. He wrote

Quote
    a character with +5 learning implants can generate 2,700 skill points in an hour, or 1,944,000 in a month. With each skill point injector holding 500,000 skill points, that means a single account can generate a total of 3.888 skill injectors per month.To merely cover the subscription price, the skill point injector manufacturer must charge at least 300 million ISK per injector. If the clone farmer is thinking long term, then substitute the actual figure of 3.888 skill injectors and the total to cover the subscription cost is 308.6 million ISK.

While this is true, the interpretation is completely wrong. This 300M + empty injector price is not a lower limit, but an upper one. The price will be lower, probably much lower. This is why:

This is the proficiency of my titan pilot in Ragnarok. All skills trained to 5. Which is great except I won't fly one in the near future. These skillpoints have no practical value to me. I trained them when I had very different views on EVE. I have several other pilots overtrained. My logi pilot can fly all carriers on 5 and I undock her once a year to fly a Guardian in Burn Jita. I have an all 5 on 3 dreads pilot and so on. I'm sitting on more than 200M skillpoints on my pilots that I have no use for and would sell for any price. We are talking about 400 full extractors here!

I'm sure I'm not the only one. Titan and supercarrier pilots can sell all their subcap skills. PvP pilots can sell mining, industry, marauders. Focused role pilots can sell off-role skills. Ratters can sell gunnery and missiles. Winet can sell leadership. Everyone and his mother can sell PI. If an average veteran has just 20M no longer needed SP and we count with 100K veteran pilots, than we are facing 4M full extractors on day 1 which have no opportunity cost to create. Sure, most of them will not be created on day 1 as people don't know about them or don't have the capital to buy empty extractors or whatever, but this SP will find its way to the market sooner or later.

This isn't just a stockpile I that will diminish once. My pilots are earning SP every day and I won't need this SP anymore than today. I run 10 acounts and train only 3 super pilots, which means that I produce 27 extractors a month "for free", since the opportunity would be to train skills I won't use (I don't want to sell these pilots).

I'm pretty sure that the full extractor price will be less than 200M+empty extractor. Maybe even less than 100M+empty until the dump is over (which can take months). The only thing that will sell is PLEX which people will buy to get their empty extractors.

So take your choices.


"I think its pretty troubling when a backyard decoration comes out swinging harder against Nazis than the President of the United States." Stephen Colbert
ajax34i
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Reply #36 on: February 09, 2016, 07:02:53 AM

Well, they are also offering discounts on PLEX, and subscription bundles that include free extractors (link here), so I don't know right now, but last night PLEX was racing up from 1250k to 1275k then as soon as they announced the discounts it took a dive back down to 1240k.  At work right now, so I can't tell you what's going on right now.

EDIT:  The couple market traders who posted on the official forums seemed to think that the prices should be between:

- cost of extractor + subscription cost of training the SP = half a PLEX
- cost of extractor + "SP are free" = quarter of a PLEX

Currently, PLEX = 1.25 billion ISK, so 600 and 300 million.  I'm guessing CCP is trying to keep PLEX prices down by offering the discount bundles, and making the aur discounts the cheapest way to get extractors.

EDIT2:  Someone posted from in-game.  Initial injector prices were 1.5bn but they rapidly dropped to 630 mil, and now rising back up through 730 m.

PLEX prices up from 1.25b to 1.35b.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 07:35:00 AM by ajax34i »
Endie
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Reply #37 on: February 11, 2016, 02:33:07 AM

The patch is today, so the price will be flying up due to marlet bot specialization.

lawl market bots driving macro price changes.

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Amarr HM
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Reply #38 on: February 11, 2016, 03:47:02 AM

So I don't need to RMT to extract, just need to buy an extractor and then receive an injector, which I can sell on the market? How are the extractors seeded?

I'm going to escape, come back, wipe this place off the face of the Earth, obliterate it and you with it.
Sir T
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Reply #39 on: February 11, 2016, 07:00:05 AM

AFAIK they aren't. People buy them with AUR and put them on the market. You don't think CCP would miss an opportunity to make 5 bucks do you? If they were stuck up for free it would defeat the purpose, aside from indirectly with people selling PLEX.

"I think its pretty troubling when a backyard decoration comes out swinging harder against Nazis than the President of the United States." Stephen Colbert
Endie
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Reply #40 on: February 11, 2016, 08:00:25 AM

AFAIK they aren't. People buy them with AUR and put them on the market. You don't think CCP would miss an opportunity to make 5 bucks do you? If they were stuck up for free it would defeat the purpose, aside from indirectly with people selling PLEX.

Quite right they should do it for free and another thing do you know that they charge for subscriptions those scammers well anyway I'm off to shoot the jita monument who's with me?

My blog: http://endie.net

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"What else would one expect of Scottish sociopaths sipping their single malt Glenlivit [sic]?" Jack Thompson
Sir T
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Reply #41 on: February 11, 2016, 08:47:12 AM

Sorry, already shot the Amarr monument.  why so serious?

"I think its pretty troubling when a backyard decoration comes out swinging harder against Nazis than the President of the United States." Stephen Colbert
Amarr HM
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Reply #42 on: February 11, 2016, 09:48:10 AM

I wonder how wide the gap in extractor/injector could stretch. Anyone else think waiting it out is the best option, or will the market madness be giving us the best prices right now.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 09:50:04 AM by Amarr HM »

I'm going to escape, come back, wipe this place off the face of the Earth, obliterate it and you with it.
Sir T
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Reply #43 on: February 11, 2016, 10:13:42 AM

Usually the prices of new stuff is vastly inflated for a week or 2.

"I think its pretty troubling when a backyard decoration comes out swinging harder against Nazis than the President of the United States." Stephen Colbert
Amarr HM
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Reply #44 on: February 11, 2016, 10:27:09 AM

Yeh I tend to agree with you there, hence why I'm veering towards the sell sell sell approach, now might be a good time.

I'm going to escape, come back, wipe this place off the face of the Earth, obliterate it and you with it.
ajax34i
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Reply #45 on: February 11, 2016, 02:18:06 PM

Well the extractors have pretty much reached equilibrium at whatever 1000 Aur is, in terms of ISK.

Injectors, on the other hand, are up in the air.  The supply CAN be pretty high (if everyone makes skill farming alts), but the demand can be pretty high too.  I believe what will happen is injector prices will go to the minimum (based on Aur and subscription costs to get the SP), with spikes in demand whenever CCP announces new ships that require new skills (like the carrier / aux revamp).

So it depends on whether PLEX prices increase or not.  Typical volume for PLEX is about 2000 traded / day, except these past few days it's jumped to 15,000 / day.  It's been explained to me that people buy PLEX and put it on the market to get ISK for injectors, and then people take the PLEX off the market to get Aur to get extractors, so that accounts for the high volumes traded with no dive in PLEX prices.  So I'm guessing PLEX prices will creep up slowly, at the same rate as they have in the past.

Next change, major rework of carriers (CCP is making them more like WW2 carriers, where you have to manage your flight deck and decide what fighters or bombers to launch, and can be caught with your pants down - sounds cool actually.  Also they're making a new ship to function as the capital remote repair).  In any case, I'm mentioning that because it looks like they're trying to make the new skills for the new ships be a cash sink, which may bring the PLEX prices back down a bit.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 02:19:38 PM by ajax34i »
ajax34i
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Reply #46 on: February 12, 2016, 10:14:10 AM

New dev blog has been posted about the new carriers and force auxiliaries, and also about reimbursing the related skills.

It sounds like they're going to let the force auxiliary ships use the Carrier and Triage skills, and otherwise they're changing the Fighters, Light Fighters, Support Fighters, and Heavy Fighters (previously Fighter Bombers) skills to be similar to how Drones, Light Drones, Medium Drones, and Heavy Drones function; one skill unlocks the ability to use 1-5, the other three unlock the specific kind of fighter and give bonuses.

They're also converting the ships (from carrier to force aux) for people who elect to leave certain modules fitted to signal that they want to switch their ship over.
Amarr HM
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Reply #47 on: February 12, 2016, 06:45:16 PM

I just made 17b isk stripping skills, I purged about 22-25m sp.

I'm going to escape, come back, wipe this place off the face of the Earth, obliterate it and you with it.
Amarr HM
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Reply #48 on: February 13, 2016, 03:43:48 AM

Most of the skills came from an unused alt with 25m sp,  if I had sold that character on the bazaar I would have been lucky to get 12b and had to pay a transfer fee.  I got to keep the character with some focused skills for a specific role and still made about 12bil from him.

I'm going to escape, come back, wipe this place off the face of the Earth, obliterate it and you with it.
ajax34i
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Reply #49 on: February 13, 2016, 06:03:20 AM

Is that 17b buying extractors from the market for ISK, or is that 17b but you paid aur/cash for the extractors?
Amarr HM
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Reply #50 on: February 13, 2016, 11:50:18 AM

Thats net profit from buying extractors removing the skills and selling injectors.  Started with 2.2 bil, now have 18.8bil.

I'm going to escape, come back, wipe this place off the face of the Earth, obliterate it and you with it.
Setanta
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Reply #51 on: February 13, 2016, 03:27:37 PM

I bought 10 injectors and drained one of my mining alts of its SP. I topped up the skills of a 12 month old pilot and then sold the rest. I'm pretty sure I'm going to do the same with my JF/Orca pilot and a bomber pilot - and then biomass all 3 when done. I'll then dump the SP into my remaining research/mining alt and that will take me nicely to 6 pilots instead of 9.

"No man is an island. But if you strap a bunch of dead guys together it makes a damn fine raft."
Amarr HM
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Reply #52 on: February 13, 2016, 07:25:34 PM

Only flaw is you can only strip out as far as 5.5mil SP so you would be throwing away 16.5mil SP when you biomass those.

I've worked out at current rates you can play for free no problem at all. You can make 2700 sp per hour at 30 days is 1944000, divide that by 500,000 is 3.88. So the current profit between extractor injector is 320mil isk, if you multiply that by 3.88 you get 1,244,160,000 ISK. Which is just a pinch above current plex prices. Nerf incoming, or CCP are waiting for the market to gain some sanity.

I'm going to escape, come back, wipe this place off the face of the Earth, obliterate it and you with it.
ajax34i
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Reply #53 on: February 14, 2016, 05:20:47 PM

At some point someone will have to buy PLEX and extractors with RL cash.  It's impossible for everyone to play for free, as the PLEX, extractors, and injectors are consumed.
ajax34i
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Reply #54 on: February 20, 2016, 10:37:44 PM

You know, I'm really tempted to strip my 100m SP character for PLEX.

Previously, characters were priced on the Bazaar based on max training speed 2700 / hr and cheapest subscription ($10 / month).
Now, because they can strip the SP and sell as injectors, characters are priced based on that.  And it ends up being PLEX / month rather than $10.
Prices have doubled. 
One can convert the SP from 5 years of subscription into enough PLEX for 5 years of game time.

Of course, starting over, won't be able to fly anything for a while.  But the metagame has moved to T2 and T3 cruisers, pretty much, with some T1 battlecruisers thrown in.  Capitals are up in the air for a few more months, and I don't have the ISK and (more importantly) the experience to actually fly them anyway.
ajax34i
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Reply #55 on: February 26, 2016, 03:27:34 PM

CCP has released usage charts for extractors and injectors.

Looks like the majority of users were either alts that were bumped up a few million points to extend their usefulness, or new / low skillpoint characters who bypassed a few months to a year of support skill training.  In the dot graphs, each dot is a character, so the number of "rich people" that everyone was whining about on the official forums is in the double digits.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 03:29:41 PM by ajax34i »
Phildo
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Reply #56 on: February 26, 2016, 04:21:03 PM

That graph doesn't account for this.  https://zkillboard.com/kill/52256704/
ajax34i
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Reply #57 on: February 26, 2016, 11:35:37 PM

Yeah, it only accounts for release day-and-a-half (first 36 hrs).
Amarr HM
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Reply #58 on: February 27, 2016, 03:16:14 AM

Wow shitty drop.

I'm going to escape, come back, wipe this place off the face of the Earth, obliterate it and you with it.
Sir T
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Reply #59 on: March 10, 2016, 08:08:56 AM

Whats the space requirements for an extractor? Becasue if they were small I would have used a t3 cruiser (if avalible) and laughed at the gankers. Going to Jita without the Tank of God or a horse of smaller alts to bring them out piecemeal is looking to die.

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Endie
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Reply #60 on: March 10, 2016, 10:33:18 AM

I stripped a couple of high-skill but scattergun-trained alts last night, as well as a couple of low-skill ones in the 30-million range, and now I have quarter a trillion isk instead of not much over 50 billion.  I never need to PvE again.  I also still have a couple of high-skill alts that are looking pretty devourable right now.

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Phildo
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Reply #61 on: March 10, 2016, 11:17:55 AM

Aw, am I not the richest guy in the corp now?
Gets
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Reply #62 on: March 10, 2016, 10:27:43 PM

You'll always bring richness to my heart, Samson  Heart
ajax34i
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Reply #63 on: March 12, 2016, 08:28:18 AM

Sigh, I'm sitting at 10b.  But, I'm idle, so oh well.
ajax34i
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Reply #64 on: April 15, 2016, 08:22:36 AM

As a continuation of the whole skill-points are a commodity thing, CCP is planning to introduce daily "opportunities" and reward 10,000 skill points for the first NPC you kill each day, soon to be expanded to the first asteroid you mine, the first production job, the first site scanned, etc, etc.  Supposedly to encourage actually logging into the game.

My suggestion was that they forget about that and change the ship insurance to reward no ISK and just some skillpoints when you lose your ship in PVP (no PVE).  Increased rewards for newbies if they want, as newbies can't otherwise afford the regular skill injectors.  But anyway, the thread is mostly in flames and growing rapidly, as no one likes the idea of dailies, so any replies will get buried fast.
Meester
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Reply #65 on: April 17, 2016, 12:21:49 PM

As a continuation of the whole skill-points are a commodity thing, CCP is planning to introduce daily "opportunities" and reward 10,000 skill points for the first NPC you kill each day, soon to be expanded to the first asteroid you mine, the first production job, the first site scanned, etc, etc.  Supposedly to encourage actually logging into the game.

My suggestion was that they forget about that and change the ship insurance to reward no ISK and just some skillpoints when you lose your ship in PVP (no PVE).  Increased rewards for newbies if they want, as newbies can't otherwise afford the regular skill injectors.  But anyway, the thread is mostly in flames and growing rapidly, as no one likes the idea of dailies, so any replies will get buried fast.

I hate the idea, I have made my feelings known. Goes against everything that eve should be.
Gets
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Reply #66 on: May 10, 2016, 03:16:04 PM

Dailies... in Eve....  swamp poop
ajax34i
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Reply #67 on: May 19, 2016, 05:42:06 PM

So, despite the complaints and comments, they're going ahead with the Dailies and will push the first out on Tuesday.

10,000 skill points / day (if you shoot an NPC) = 300,000 per month = free injector every two months or so = equivalent of PLEX every 3 months or so.

I'm thinking some prices are about to crash on the market.

Average skillpoints / month is 1.6 million, with this change 1.9 million.  Equivalent of having an extra set of +5 attribute implants. 

Maybe they're considering removing attribute implants.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 05:51:36 PM by ajax34i »
VainEldritch
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Reply #68 on: May 20, 2016, 04:44:48 PM

CCP selling SP is like walking in on the Pope wanking as he blarts all over a Tumblr creeper image of Satan's upskirt thong. I like it.

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
Endie
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Reply #69 on: May 21, 2016, 03:32:50 AM

CCP selling SP is like walking in on the Pope wanking as he blarts all over a Tumblr creeper image of Satan's upskirt thong. I like it.

This is an excellent metaphor except for being pointless, inaccurate, irrelevant and horribly-poorly written.  I feel stupider for reading it and even stupider for engaging seriously, but I do feel I have to point out that CCP have always sold skillpoints (those and the right to log into their services are what you get in return for your subscription).  And if you really feel that the new mechanic needs economic analysis in inappropriate IRL-terms, then the new dailies are not a contract of sale (where you pay them to acquire a good) but a contract of hire (where they pay you to perform an act).

So, despite the complaints and comments, they're going ahead with the Dailies and will push the first out on Tuesday.

I honestly do not know why anyone is complaining, except for a very few people who have reason to believe that they genuinely lack the self-control required to resist the urge to log in every single day because what will they do without today's 10k skillpoints.

Not-logging-in is habit-forming.

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