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Author Topic: Making A Murderer  (Read 1234 times)
Mithas
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on: January 08, 2016, 08:18:08 AM

Anyone else watching this? I'm only 3 episodes in, but holy shit is it fucked up. I'm generally not a big fan of documentaries, but this one has me glued and man does it make me angry.
kaid
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Reply #1 on: January 08, 2016, 08:28:43 AM

One thing to note is the documentary does leave out some likely damning evidence. Living in wiconsin and hearing a lot about this it seems pretty unlikely if he and the dumb ass kid did not rape and murder her. BUT and this is a big but the local police were try harding so bad after he got sprung for being falsely convicted of rape and was suing the shit out of them that they pretty clearly planted faked a LOT of the evidence to try to make it a easy slam dunk case.

This is a case of where justice was probably served but it could easily been thrown out of court even though he probably is guilty due to the stupidity of the police investigation of him.
Threash
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Reply #2 on: January 08, 2016, 08:38:11 AM

They should just call that an "O.J."

I am the .00000001428%
kaid
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Reply #3 on: January 08, 2016, 08:49:12 AM

They should just call that an "O.J."

Its not really an OJ. OJ all the legit evidence pointed at him without the police doing that much to try to falsify things to point that way. In the avery case you have a guy who likely is guilty of the crime but had a huge chain of sherifs falsifying data in clownishly easy to spot ways to the kid defendants own god  damn lawyers investigator coercing a confession from the mentally impaired kid. It was a total shit show of failures and I think it was probably a case of the jury holding their noses realizing avery probably did kill the woman and convicting him in spite of all the horrid failures surrounding the case.
Selby
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Reply #4 on: January 08, 2016, 10:08:23 AM

It was a total shit show of failures and I think it was probably a case of the jury holding their noses realizing avery probably did kill the woman and convicting him in spite of all the horrid failures surrounding the case.
I have no clue whether he did it or not, but the complete lack of evidence in some places and evidence later being "discovered" in plain view days if not months after that was missed the first time points to either the police planting evidence to frame him (as Avery claims) or the police had such a hard on to get him it didn't matter if the evidence made sense or was legally going to stand up in court.  And the police/prosecution holding press conferences describing graphic murder details they supposedly only found out from a mentally challenged kid (whose entire answers consisted of "yes, no, & I dunno" type responses) is just odd. That the kid was claimed to have given a graphic confession when all he did was be evasive & give generic responses point to a prosecutor and police that had zero cares of actually giving the guy a fair trial with an impartial jury.  There may have been damning evidence the documentary neglected to point out or focus on, but what evidence they did present was flimsy and in some parts should have been tossed out by the judge.  Neither of those 2 or their family are criminal masterminds who can eliminate any trace of the crime as presented.

As much as it sucks sometimes, the justice system isn't there to put people in prison for life based on "someone's gotta do time for this murder". Whether or not he did it, the way it appears is they railroaded the guy because someone had to do time for the crime.
lamaros
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Reply #5 on: January 08, 2016, 07:58:20 PM

One thing to note is the documentary does leave out some likely damning evidence. Living in wiconsin and hearing a lot about this it seems pretty unlikely if he and the dumb ass kid did not rape and murder her. BUT and this is a big but the local police were try harding so bad after he got sprung for being falsely convicted of rape and was suing the shit out of them that they pretty clearly planted faked a LOT of the evidence to try to make it a easy slam dunk case.

This is a case of where justice was probably served but it could easily been thrown out of court even though he probably is guilty due to the stupidity of the police investigation of him.

The bold. That's not how these things work. This is not justice.

Expect poison from the standing water.
Ginaz
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Reply #6 on: January 08, 2016, 08:31:17 PM

One thing to note is the documentary does leave out some likely damning evidence. Living in wiconsin and hearing a lot about this it seems pretty unlikely if he and the dumb ass kid did not rape and murder her. BUT and this is a big but the local police were try harding so bad after he got sprung for being falsely convicted of rape and was suing the shit out of them that they pretty clearly planted faked a LOT of the evidence to try to make it a easy slam dunk case.

This is a case of where justice was probably served but it could easily been thrown out of court even though he probably is guilty due to the stupidity of the police investigation of him.

The bold. That's not how these things work. This is not justice.

Agreed.  Just because it's "likely" they are guilty, it shouldn't be enough to convict, esp. with the misconduct of the police.  It's easy to say since we didn't know the victim, but sometimes you have to hold your nose and apply the law to the proceedings.  Mob justice is a far, far worse prospect.

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HaemishM
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Reply #7 on: January 08, 2016, 08:55:55 PM

My wife has been watching this and I've listened to a bit, especially of the interrogation done at the high school (not even at the police station) of a minor without a lawyer, guardian or parent in the room. That alone, regardless of what was said, should have been enough to have the case tossed and the interrogating officers suspended. Then to hear the way they were leading that kid on by the nose should have cost them their jobs. I mean, we're not talking about LITTLE things here - these are things that go against the entire basis of the rules of evidence of our justice system.

Slayerik
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Reply #8 on: January 25, 2016, 08:08:55 AM

This show made me sick to my stomach. As soon as he was charged with that murder the county won. He had to settle for a fraction of what he would have been awarded. The fact that Manitowac county was involved so deeply in that investigation was bad enough, but then to ruin a kid's life without a shred of physical evidence placing him at the 'crime scene' (which, didn't have any evidence of Habbach ever being there when they supposedly raped her and slit her throat in his trailer). Where was the trace blood from dragging her or mutilating her? This supposedly horrific rape/murder, and all they convicted him on was very suspect evidence.

How hard is it really to dump a barrel full of remains and plant a few drops of blood? Who is to say that lab even sent real swabs to the FBI? Brendan wasn't even part of the plan, but he was a welcome addition to it once they interrogated him to a false confession.

Where's the motive for Avery? To rape a chick? If he did it, he had tons of tools at his disposal to cover up the crime...and even not being a super intelligent guy I'm sure he wouldn't just have a bonfire with the lady. It just doesn't make sense. It pisses me off and scares me what can happen to you if you piss off one sheriff's wife. That's what started this whole chain of events.

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
MahrinSkel
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Reply #9 on: January 26, 2016, 04:03:26 AM

Haven't finished this yet (on Ep 4), but a few things have jumped out at me as "WTF?"

1) The blood in the Rav 4, near the ignition: It didn't look right the first time I saw it, and I couldn't figure out why at first. I considered the shape of the mark, the location, and although those were hard to picture how it could happen it wasn't what was bugging me. Then it hit me: It's too red. Blood smears don't stay that red for more than a few minutes, naturally. Even given that it was cold weather, it was something like a week between the date of the crime, and the car being found, that blood should have looked like a smear of chocolate. There had to be some kind of preservative preventing it from decaying and oxidizing.

2) That key was pristine (completely unmarked and unworn), and on a ring by itself. It looked like a spare key that had never actually been used. The fact that the one deputy wanted to be very clear at the original arraignment that the key was not there until after the detective started to search that area also stood out.

3) They found no DNA from her in the house, garage, anywhere. This woman was supposedly beaten, stabbed, raped, and shot, over the course of several hours in a house that was not exactly filled with marble and stainless steel, and yet *none* of her DNA was found?

4) The second/third confession by Brendan was almost textbook in how it was manipulated out of him, exactly as if they were using the reports of how the mentally handicapped will make false confessions as a guidebook.

5) The victim's brother looked extremely sketchy. The way he was talking about her in the past tense, about how they were going through a grieving process, when they hadn't even found her car yet, was just fucking weird.

--Dave

--Jello Biafra: "If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve."
Mithas
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Reply #10 on: January 26, 2016, 08:28:59 AM

I'm on episode six and it gets worse. The police could not have fucked this up more. Even if Avery did it, they had it out for him and wanted to make sure that he got convicted.
MahrinSkel
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Reply #11 on: January 26, 2016, 12:35:56 PM

I just got to the verdict, and it just does not make fucking sense to me. Any theory of the crime has to account for two facts, one of presence and one of absence:

1) The presence of bone fragments at the quarry.

2) The complete absence of DNA from the victim in the home (excepting the 'magic bullet').

I don't see how you reconcile those facts with any theory of Stephen Avery's guilt. Every attempt I see to do so appeals to 'evidence the jury wasn't allowed to see', and then proceeds to talk about 'evidence' of bad behavior and juvenile misconduct that was excluded because it was prejudicial and completely without applicability to the case. In other words, they don't account for those facts, they make emotional appeals, asking you to weigh this poor white trash moron against the reputations and careers of the Manitowac County Sheriffs, specifically Lt. Detective Lenk, the Sheriff himself, and the patrolman (forget his name).

Three people that we know for a fact, as a finding of law, at a minimum participated in the mishandling of the sexual assault case that Avery was wrongfully convicted for. That were fighting with the insurance companies over whether they were covered against Avery's lawsuit (and the insurance companies were winning, on arguments that their actions were so egregious as to totally remove their claims of 'just doing our jobs"). So we're talking about 3 known liars, three *known* "bad cops", that were looking at complete ruin, professional, personal, and financial. And they're at the center of this investigation, in just the right places at just the right times to find the sole pieces of evidence that linked Avery to the crime. Even though they weren't supposed to be. Even though the Calumet and Manitowac County Sheriffs claimed that Manitowac was operating in only a supporting capacity.

So we have a police department with a history of making the evidence fit the suspect, facing severe consequences at every level. And we're supposed to believe they had completely reformed, were no longer engaging in their malfeasance, and that to even suggest it is a heinous accusation that doesn't deserve to be taken seriously? When we have them lying *again*, on the record, repeatedly?

No, we're supposed to believe that Stephen Avery just randomly decided to rape, torture, and kill this woman, and then dispose of the body by burning it in a Halloween bonfire in front of his entire extended family (do you have any idea how long it takes to cremate a body? what it looks like, what it *smells* like?), that he meticulously and perfectly cleaned up all forensic evidence of this crime inside his home, but left all of the bone fragments except for two small bits in the ash pile right behind his house, *except* for a couple that he just randomly took to the quarry because...reasons? That the miraculous Detective Lenk was able to turn up crucial evidence that escaped all other searchers, repeatedly? That this making their problems with the 1985 case go away was just a happy coincidence and in no way affected anything?

No, it seems pretty clear that someone else killed the victim, and the Manitowac Sheriff saw that the fact she had been at the Avery property as an opportunity to fix their problem. That patrolman found the vehicle (and probably the body) somewhere else, and together with Lenk arranged to have the remains (and the vehicle) taken to the Avery property.

There are only 4 bits of actual evidence, and they are all sketchy: The burned bone fragments, the key, Avery's blood in the car, and the bullet. Everything else is just appeals to emotion and people's desire to believe that the system couldn't possibly be *that* rigged.

--Dave

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Miguel
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Reply #12 on: January 27, 2016, 03:45:51 PM

Despite any theory of motive, I do believe that either one or both of them did it, or participated in some fashion.

However I also believe that the prosecution didn't meet the burden of proof by any stretch of the imagination, and there was enough evidence of malfeasance to paint "reasonable doubt" all over that case.

A few other interesting tidbits in there:
1) The defense attorney's did an outstanding job - the prosecution spent 80% of their time trying to defend the allegations of police tampering rather than actually presenting a substantive case against Avery.  In the end, it didn't matter, but kudos to them.
2) I found it interesting that the one defense attorney let slip that deliberations started out at the preliminary vote of 7 not-guilty and 5 guilty.  Who's to say there wasn't any tampering of the jury pool?

To speak nothing of the travesty of the questioning of Brandon, and the cozy association between his first attorney and the prosecution / police.  I think Brandon might have escaped jail time if his first attorney just had told him to shut the fuck up, as any competent attorney would probably do.

I found the treatment of Brandon in this process far more rage-inducing that what happened to Avery.  It was enough that my wife and I wen't back and re-watched this video, which seemed prophetic when viewed in hindsight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

“We have competent people thinking about this stuff. We’re not just making shit up.” -Neil deGrasse Tyson
MahrinSkel
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Reply #13 on: January 27, 2016, 04:14:04 PM

Despite any theory of motive, I do believe that either one or both of them did it, or participated in some fashion.
Why? Frankly, I don't see any way that any person with half a brain and any sense of logic at all could consider there to be any real chance that either one of them was involved. It seems like some people just have an instant antipathy to them, and after that the evidence is simply fodder for their rationalizations, little hooks of fact with no support from which they hang their prejudice. Brandon especially would simply not have been able to keep a set of lies as complicated as his default story straight, as evidenced by the way that his 'confessions' swayed in the breeze of his interrogator's suggestions.

The prosecution's claimed chain of events just makes no damned sense, if it were accurate then there should be a shitload and a half of circumstantial forensics to flesh it out. Blood in the bedroom, house, and garage. Chain and rope scratches on the bed headboard and footboard. Blood (and other fluids) on the mattress. A knife or knives, and saws covered with flesh fragments and blood (dismembering a body is *messy*, hard work, and takes a while). They never matched the magic  bullet to any of the firearms he had access to. The car key had Avery's DNA on it, but none of the victims. Somehow he was both tremendously knowledgeable and meticulous in removing forensic traces from the house and garage, yet completely inept for the burn pit and Rav 4 (EDIT: he got every single tiny bit of trace evidence out of the house and garage, yet missed the key and the bullet? really?).  No version of the prosecution theory accounted for the victim's blood in the Rav 4.

That's not even getting into all of the shenanigans and psychological warfare the authorities subjected them to, or the clear history of and motives for manufacturing evidence of the local PD. Just on the straight up merits, the case was less than a joke.

--Dave

EDIT: Come to think of it, this may have been the entire point of the prosecutions focus on the horrific imagery of their impossible scenario: It was so horrifying to think about what they said happened, that the rational part of the brain simply couldn't get a grip on it. "How can you think about scratches on the furniture or forensic procedure, with what she went through?" But that was the Jury's job, to think rationally and dispassionately about the guilt or innocence of the defendant in front of them and the logical certainty of the prosecution's case. And they failed, badly.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 09:06:41 AM by MahrinSkel »

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Margalis
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Reply #14 on: January 30, 2016, 12:29:59 AM

Guys, it's a fucking TV show.

You aren't going to unravel the mystery and figure out who is guilty by watching it.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Pennilenko
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Reply #15 on: January 30, 2016, 12:33:19 AM

Guys, it's a fucking TV show.

You aren't going to unravel the mystery and figure out who is guilty by watching it.
Do you even f13 bro?

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Amarr HM
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Reply #16 on: June 01, 2017, 02:10:49 PM

Despite any theory of motive, I do believe that either one or both of them did it, or participated in some fashion.
Why? Frankly, I don't see any way that any person with half a brain and any sense of logic at all could consider there to be any real chance that either one of them was involved. It seems like some people just have an instant antipathy to them, and after that the evidence is simply fodder for their rationalizations, little hooks of fact with no support from which they hang their prejudice.

Dasseys confessions are pretty damning if you read the full transcripts, he's obviously quite suggestible but still provides a lot of information that isn't shown on the show. Avery's twin sons and Jodi his ex have come out after and said Steven had propensity towards violence and that he was quite capable of it. Unless there was actual proof the evidence was planted then it's understandable why he's prime suspect. I'm not totally convinced he did it, there's so much crazy there between the fact it happened during the lawsuit and then lack of dna in anywhere but the car. But then you have the kids confessions, which aren't wholly reliable but still a bit odd.

There's now a theory which has definitely got a bit of meat to it regarding the serial killer Edward Edwards who lived an hour away, had a habit of killing people on Halloween and part of his m.o. was framing people for his crimes. If so the police would have had to put the blood in the vehicle to make it stick.

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