New MMOG announced: Gods and Heroes

[schmoo]

http://www.godsandheroes.com/

Here's what they are claiming:

is a premier action-adventure massively multiplayer online game (MMOG) featuring:
The Gods, Creatures, and Monsters of mythology
Squad-based combat in which players hire, train, and lead squads of NPC soldiers into battle
Large scale battles where groups of squads form up into player-run armies
An intricate quest system with over 1,200 quests
A game-spanning epic quest path for every player
An action animation system delivering the most realistic and visceral combat action of any MMOG
Gauls, Barbarians, Samnites and more classic enemies of Rome
Dynamic Zone™ technology and hundreds of scripted adventures providing the best of single-player game mechanics - all unfolding in private, uncontested world-areas for individuals and groups to experience
Future game expansions will add new territory that expands across the map of the world - North, South, East, and West - adding new player races, mythologies, Gods, and creatures.

Gods and Heroes: Rome Rising and all of its expansion games also will offer the following key features:
Deep, rich "skills-based" character development and player investment systems
Fully integrated social systems and player-to-player interaction tools

There are some short movies ~2-3MB of combat, including one of a nice snake-lady with ActiveHair(tm) picking up a hapless fellow by the scruff of his neck and slamming him into the ground.  Amazingly, he stands up afterwards and even manages to pick up his shield and sword.

From Perpetual Entertainment, and they are saying release in fall of 2005.

[stray]

picking up a hapless fellow

Such a seemingly simple thing is a mighty impressive feat, considering the genre.

edit: Oops. I forgot City of Heroes. Though I don't recall seeing any characters actually being picked up and tossed about. More like pushed around.

There are grappling moves in MxO, but they're just animations. Not anything you have real fluid control over (like in a UFC or Wrestling game). I wonder if it's the same with Gods and Heroes.

[SirBruce]

Darnn you schmoo, you beat be to this announcement. :)  I was just coming on this morning to post this.

I had a chance to see a preview of the game a few weeks ago, and it is very interesting.  It's still way too early to say if it's actually any fun to play, but they have some clear product differenttiators that might tempt one to play it over Wiorld of Warcraft or Guild Wars.  Also, they have Stieg Hedlund, the lead designer of Diablo 2, on the game, so the loot system should be very satisfactory at the very least. :)

Bruce

[Stephen Zepp]

I wonder why they talk about squad based combat, but then don't have a single screen shot with more than about 5 character models on screen?

I also think that this (Dynamic Zone Technology) is just instancing gone insane--I've talked about it before, but why in the hell clamp yourself into the HUGE infrastructure cost of a MMOG, if what you are providing to your customer base is a Minimally Multiplayer Online Game?

[Sky]

I'll just toss out an early prediction I just made up: Gods will be for catasses and heroes will suck :P

why in the hell clamp yourself into the HUGE infrastructure cost of a MMOG, if what you are providing to your customer base is a Minimally Multiplayer Online Game?

My god, doesn't this line of shit get old after a while? How many times does this need be addressed, or will you just keep repeating this like your own little instance-hate mantra?

[Evangolis]

The Greeks are the biggest cultural influence on the area, and their culture is in full flourish. They as too clever for their own good, and somewhat morally loose.

Good to see they are getting off to a good start with a gratuitous insult to the foundation culture for Western Civilization.  I look forward to seeing this bit of backstory implemented ingame.

Beta summer 2005, release Fall 2005.

They've gotten about 10 mil in venture capital since late 2003, so they have some money, and they have a game system they are promoting:

Perpetual Entertainment Website

The Perpetual Entertainment Platform (PEP) is designed to facilitate the low-cost, high-profit operation of any networked online game. Unlike other platform solutions, PEP provides everything you need to efficiently launch and operate your online game. Our PEP SDK makes it easy to integrate your game into our platform and insulates you from changes in PEP software as we extend the capabilities of the platform over time.


Some of the most critical features:

Customer Support Tools:
The key to keeping profit margins high is having a useful self-help system. The platform utilizes an in-game and web knowledge base system (context sensitive) to help the consumer solve problems quickly without the need for human interaction. When a CSR is needed, we have the tools to enable your TOS requirements

E-Commerce & Billing:
Support for traditional monthly subscription models as well as micro-transaction and time-based billing. Subscription engine handles discount specials and combination packages.

Metrics and Reporting:
The ability to track core game and business metrics are vital. We provide standard financial reports as well as the ability to link game, business, and operational metrics to better understand the health of your game.

Operations:
Online games can be capital intensive. Our platform allows us to maximize invested hardware by supporting logical configuration tools to allow remote configuration/deployment to all servers. This logical configuration management is linked to our system monitoring infrastructure so all changes to architecture are automatically updated for the 24X7 Network Operations view.

Cross-Platform Support:
Modular design enables game applications to function simultaneously on multiple hardware platforms. (PC, console, handheld, cell phones).

Which sounds good, I've been wanking on CS and Game Management tools as core game elements for some time now.

On the other hand:

We are currently developing two AAA online games.

They have secured the license for a Star Trek online game with Viacom, as well as this game, and are actively seeking 3rd party devlopers for making other games.

The license encompasses all live-action motion pictures and television series including, Star Trek: The Original Series, Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Star Trek: Voyager, and Star Trek: Enterprise.  “The scope of the content license is extraordinary for a game of this kind, giving us the opportunity to immerse fans and players in the incredibly rich, diverse and exciting universe of Star Trek,” said Joe Keene, CEO of Perpetual Entertainment.

The launch for that is 2007, which seems damn ambitious to me.

The principals here seem to be Joe Keene and Chris McKibbin, whose bios list them both as ex-EA employees.  Not sure how to take that, could be very good or very bad.  I don't think there is any connection with the Chris McKibbin of SMS.ac whom I found while googling this stuff.  SMS.ac appears to have some PR/CS problems, so I hope there is no relationship, and I believe there to be none.

The rest of the board is composed of reps from venture capital firms, so it is pretty clear where the power lies in that deal.

On the whole, I like what I find so far, the firm seems extremely ambitous and perhaps a bit tight for funding, but they clearly have at least some experience and they seem to understand what needs to happen.  Still, they seem to be on a two year time frame, which suggests either an efficient and streamlined process or an impending clusterfuck.  Impossible to tell from outside, and perhaps equally unclear from inside.  The game seems fairly straightforward, which is a point toward pulling it off.  A 'simple' MMO, followed by a big license like Star Trek could be a blockbuster success, but execution will be the tricky part.

As always, have to wait at least until beta, and failure is always possible, even if launch happens.  The game doesn't inherently interest me, but a well executed game is always going to be worth considering.

Wonder how you get a beta invite?

[Mesozoic]

I see from the front page screenshots that this is Rome-flavored fantasy, and not historical or even semi-historical.  It seems like a waste to take such a cool period of human history and then throw in monsters.  Any attempt at historical accuracy would have been a great selling point. 

Its not like there is a lack of adversaries or potential scenarios for a Roman historical MMOG. 

[Evangolis]

I'll just toss out an early prediction I just made up: Gods will be for catasses and heroes will suck :P

why in the hell clamp yourself into the HUGE infrastructure cost of a MMOG, if what you are providing to your customer base is a Minimally Multiplayer Online Game?

My god, doesn't this line of shit get old after a while? How many times does this need be addressed, or will you just keep repeating this like your own little instance-hate mantra?

Actually, I had the same concern as Stephen when I looked the game web site over, and I am a proponent of instancing.  This does seem to me to be an SP MMO, although what can I really say from a website?  However, one possible answer to Stephen's question is that this game is a proving ground for their MMO structure, which will then be used to implement the Star Trek license.  It is a logical plan. The devil is in the details, of course, and a simple MMO would be one way to reduce those details.

With the same caveat of purely website info, it would appear that the game has one playable group, Romans, and the Gods are the NPC heads of the 4 factions that the players are divided into.  Which is not to say that there isn't ample room in this model for catassery.  They've got some 'epic quest for each player' verbage which sounds like demi-godhood to me.  Appropriate to the mythos, but still an obvious opening to The Grind.

[Riggswolfe]

I wonder why they talk about squad based combat, but then don't have a single screen shot with more than about 5 character models on screen?

I also think that this (Dynamic Zone Technology) is just instancing gone insane--I've talked about it before, but why in the hell clamp yourself into the HUGE infrastructure cost of a MMOG, if what you are providing to your customer base is a Minimally Multiplayer Online Game?

Because other people are assholes and the less exposure to them the better as far as alot of people are concerned.

[HaemishM]

I'll just toss out an early prediction I just made up: Gods will be for catasses and heroes will suck :P

why in the hell clamp yourself into the HUGE infrastructure cost of a MMOG, if what you are providing to your customer base is a Minimally Multiplayer Online Game?

My god, doesn't this line of shit get old after a while? How many times does this need be addressed, or will you just keep repeating this like your own little instance-hate mantra?

Yes, I agree with Sky. Just because YOU don't like instancnig, don't piss on the parade that it can actually be fun for individuals and groups.

However, after looking at the movies, and reading up on it, I see nothing whatsoever to make this game seem all that interesting. The squad stuff SOUNDS fine, but I question why it's not shown in any of the early movies? It would seem to be a huge differentiating feature, and yet, nothing is shown of it.

The combat in the movie clips looks JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER MMOG OUT THERE. Being picked up by an enemy sounds interesting, and would elicit a coolwowie the first few times I saw it, but after that, not so much. I love their use of a marketing term, complete with TM, for what amounts to instancing, i.e. Dynamic Zone.

On top of that, this is the company also doing the Star Trek MMOG. All of the employees mentioned on their web site are former EA execs, neither of which has game design experience. The rest listed are all venture capitalists, money men. They list on their employment page job openings for some pretty important positions for Star Trek, including GAME DESIGNER. EH? They also don't really mention G&H on their company web site. I think it may just be a test bed for the stuff they plan on putting into Star Trek. Not a promising start. The company was founded last year, I think, and they are already putting out an MMOG?

I smell sewage.

[Ironwood]

Which sounds good, I've been wanking on CS and Game Management tools as core game elements for some time now.

I'm sorry, did you mean to say this ?

[HaemishM]

He left out the sarcasm tags.

[Ironwood]

It's just that now I have this horrible image of him sitting in front of a fully loaded, multi-media capable laptop, tugging away at it....

 

[Evangolis]

It's just that now I have this horrible image of him sitting in front of a fully loaded, multi-media capable laptop, tugging away at it....

 

Hey, some of us find a slick piece of technology very exciting. 

[schmoo]

Darnn you schmoo, you beat be to this announcement. :)  I was just coming on this morning to post this.

[schild]

I smell sewage.

That's not sewage, my friend. That's only the smell of the greatest MMOG EVER. You see, here at Perpetual Entertainment, we do things differently. We're not going to make an MMOG like all those other companies. This is going to be GOOD. Different! Yea, we know hearing that doesn't make you need to change your slacks anymore. It's tough trying to catch the eye of people like you. But remember, it's tough watching our buzzwords get distilled down to the stupidity that they are. But that's OK, and we'll still bend over backwards at E3 for your money.

I can't even go on.

The only even remotely Rome based MMOG should have been developed for the next Gen xbox by the Namco Soul Calibur people and should have been a twitch fighting game where players pick one of two classes, gladiator or stablemaster. One controls the gladiators, where they fight and who they fight. And the others fight for the glory of Rome. ANY other MMOG with any sort of Roman in it is stupid. It is not a background to be taken lightly, and everyone and their dog tries to [ya know, take it lightly].

[Stephen Zepp]

I'll just toss out an early prediction I just made up: Gods will be for catasses and heroes will suck :P

why in the hell clamp yourself into the HUGE infrastructure cost of a MMOG, if what you are providing to your customer base is a Minimally Multiplayer Online Game?

My god, doesn't this line of shit get old after a while? How many times does this need be addressed, or will you just keep repeating this like your own little instance-hate mantra?

Easy killer--I didn't say ANYTHING about the marketability or enjoyability of the game at ALL. I have NO issues with Minimally Multiplayer--if you read the other thread where it was discussed closely, you'd have realized that I think it's a great idea actually--I just think that it is a very poor business decision to shackle a strong Minimally Multiplayer game with the overhead and cost of maintaining huge server farms.

Based on how the web page describes gameplay, it is my OPINION that they could save a ton of money by using a different system...which would leave a lot of room for making the game even better by investing more wisely.

Haemish: In response to your post, it sounds like they have completely valid reasons to instance away at will--and it also sounds like it will make this particular game very enjoyable (assuming everything else about the game is enjoyable as well). In this case, instancing isn't a band-aid to handle poor design in other areas, it's a design decision made from the beginning for good reasons.

I don't hate instancing, and I never said that the concept in and of itself is bad...it works absolutely fine in CoH from what I understand, because it makes sense for that game, and there are no overlying issues that cause problems.

[HaemishM]

Easy killer--I didn't say ANYTHING about the marketability or enjoyability of the game at ALL. I have NO issues with Minimally Multiplayer--if you read the other thread where it was discussed closely, you'd have realized that I think it's a great idea actually--I just think that it is a very poor business decision to shackle a strong Minimally Multiplayer game with the overhead and cost of maintaining huge server farms.

Because then you can JUSTIFY charging a monthly fee, which is a continuous, recurring revenue stream, as opposed to what shooters or other "minimally multiplayer games" do, which is hope you sell enough copies off the shelf to pay back development costs with a little bit of profit. These guys are VC; they are all about return on investment. A cash cow of $1 million a month in revenue (figure dragged straight out of my ass) over 2 years sounds a lot better than $5 million in revenue over a 2-3 month period followed by jack and shit. MMOG's aren't not being considered "the wave of the future" for their gameplay mechanics; it's all about that recurrinng monthly revenue, with the added benefit of being much harder to pirate the game. Provided you don't absolutely shit the bed on release (and even when you do), you are talking about a great business investment, especially if your chosen team can bring the thing in for under $10 million.

[Stephen Zepp]

Because then you can JUSTIFY charging a monthly fee, which is a continuous, recurring revenue stream

That is definitely a valid point...and does fit in with the comment above about this possibly being a "test run" of server architecture for the ST MMOG as well.

It does imply however that the revenue model of MMOG's has had a turn-around in confidence on the part of VC's, because for several years they've been extremely hesitant to put up the up-front cash for the infrastructure purchase in hopes of a positive revenue stream. I think that's a really good change by the way if this isn't an isolated case!

[Alkiera]

Easy killer--I didn't say ANYTHING about the marketability or enjoyability of the game at ALL. I have NO issues with Minimally Multiplayer--if you read the other thread where it was discussed closely, you'd have realized that I think it's a great idea actually--I just think that it is a very poor business decision to shackle a strong Minimally Multiplayer game with the overhead and cost of maintaining huge server farms.

Because then you can JUSTIFY charging a monthly fee, which is a continuous, recurring revenue stream, as opposed to what shooters or other "minimally multiplayer games" do, which is hope you sell enough copies off the shelf to pay back development costs with a little bit of profit. These guys are VC; they are all about return on investment.

Exactly.  Like that line from the description of their MMO 'engine' says.. "The Perpetual Entertainment Platform (PEP) is designed to facilitate the low-cost, high-profit operation of any networked online game."

Alkiera

[Trippy]

We talked about these guys back when the Star Trek MMO was announced:

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=1054.0

The fact that they are licensing their platform screams "EA BUY US OUT FOR OUR TECHNOLOGY PLEASE!" to me.

[Triforcer]

To whomever claimed they are passing up a good opportunity on historical accuracy- umm, if this uses Rome it pretty much HAS to be monster based.  A "historical" based Rome MMO wouldn't last past the first time someone attacked a barbarian invader/tribesman/enemy who was anything but white.   

[schild]

To whomever claimed they are passing up a good opportunity on historical accuracy- umm, if this uses Rome it pretty much HAS to be monster based.  A "historical" based Rome MMO wouldn't last past the first time someone attacked a barbarian invader/tribesman/enemy who was anything but white.

This is where I say people need to get the fuck over themselves and it turns into a political argument and people get angry. BTW, people dealt with GTA: San Andreas, they can cope with a moderately historically correct Roman game.

[Triforcer]

To whomever claimed they are passing up a good opportunity on historical accuracy- umm, if this uses Rome it pretty much HAS to be monster based.  A "historical" based Rome MMO wouldn't last past the first time someone attacked a barbarian invader/tribesman/enemy who was anything but white.

This is where I say people need to get the fuck over themselves and it turns into a political argument and people get angry. BTW, people dealt with GTA: San Andreas, they can cope with a moderately historically correct Roman game.

Isn't the main character black in San Andreas?  That changes everything.  There's a reason that 99.9% of video games that deal with killing people from RL eras are about Nazis and Soviets.  I GUARANTEE you that the first time some white Roman PC player went in and AOEed an entire village of Nubians (Rome made excursions pretty far down the Nile) or Egyptians or Slavs there would be absolute hell to pay.  How often do you even see nonwhite PvE humans in any MMO?   

[schild]

I can kill black slave gladiators in Shadow of Rome.
I can kill black people and hatians in GTA Vice City.

I think you're just trying to make this political. But you can't. Because it's stupid.

[SirBruce]

To whomever claimed they are passing up a good opportunity on historical accuracy- umm, if this uses Rome it pretty much HAS to be monster based.  A "historical" based Rome MMO wouldn't last past the first time someone attacked a barbarian invader/tribesman/enemy who was anything but white.   

There's already a "historical" Rome MMO in development called Roma Victor.  Hopefully after all these games come up we'll all be sick of the Rome genre for a while...

Bruce

[Margalis]

I can kill black slave gladiators in Shadow of Rome.
I can kill black people and hatians in GTA Vice City.

I think you're just trying to make this political. But you can't. Because it's stupid.

In The Getaway you play a white guy and take out huge swaths of very stereotypical Haitians or Rastafarians or whatever the fuck they are. Hell, they even get referred to as Jungle Bunnies or something similar.

[schild]

To whomever claimed they are passing up a good opportunity on historical accuracy- umm, if this uses Rome it pretty much HAS to be monster based.  A "historical" based Rome MMO wouldn't last past the first time someone attacked a barbarian invader/tribesman/enemy who was anything but white.   

There's already a "historical" Rome MMO in development called Roma Victor.  Hopefully after all these games come up we'll all be sick of the Rome genre for a while...

You've learned not a goddamn thing! We have 50 fantasy games Bruce. Minimum 50. 3 Roman games? One's in space. Comeon.

[Signe]

Romans in space?

[Mesozoic]

To whomever claimed they are passing up a good opportunity on historical accuracy- umm, if this uses Rome it pretty much HAS to be monster based.  A "historical" based Rome MMO wouldn't last past the first time someone attacked a barbarian invader/tribesman/enemy who was anything but white.   

Although I disagree that a Roman hisotorical would lead to noticable RL social tirades, the developer of such a game could make certain allowances if they were afraid of that.  Perhaps conflict could be limited to western Europe, fighting German barbarians and oppressing those damn Britons and Gauls.  Maybe they would go so far as to allow for the Carthaginians.  There's still no need for monsters.

[Mesozoic]

Romans in space?

Imperator

[Signe]

Oh that's right!  I forgot.  It looks purdy, too.

[schild]

Oh that's right!  I forgot.  It looks purdy, too.

Don't say that! Marc Jacobs might hear you and think it's a good idea again!

[SirBruce]

You've learned not a goddamn thing! We have 50 fantasy games Bruce. Minimum 50. 3 Roman games? One's in space. Comeon.

I wasn't referring just to MMOs, but also the various Rome-themed strategy games that came on the market in the last year.

Bruce

[HaemishM]

There's plenty of room for Rome-based historical or mythological games. It's really a fairly untapped market when compared to medieval-style fantasy in PC games and MMOG's. Also, even if you could kill Nubians, or Slavs, or Persians, or whatever non-whites in a Rome-themed game, it wouldn't make a big stinking deal. Sure, you'd have your sandy manginas scream and whine for a bit, to be promptly ignored by 99.99999% of the fucking player base, and that'd be about it.

Really, Triforcer, that's an awfully stupid fucking thing to say.