Need general advice: Moving from Australia to Germany

[Pagz]

Alternate thread title: An Australian and a Chinese walk into a Germany.

Last year my girlfriend decided she wants to go back to uni and also discovered that Germany recently introduced free education, putting the two together she deduced living and learning in Germany would be pretty cool, to which I agreed. However since I've never even been to Germany let alone spendt longer then a week in a country that didn't speak English It'd be nice to get general advice about not only moving over seas but peoples anecdotes of their experiences and hardships of the process. The end game is to live in Germany from 2016-2020 then move back to Australia.

My main snag at the moment is what the hell I'll be doing over there. My job is online so it really doesn't matter where I am, however work is concerned that I wouldn't be able to legally get paid whilst over there (and they kinda don't want to hire layers to figure it out until closer to the date) so was wondering if anyone here would have any idea about working for a company in a different country?

Visas for me to actually stay over there is a whole other ball game. While she could stay with an education visa my options are a little more limited. My initial thought was to scrape up a lot of paperwork and apply for Italian citizenship through my grandmother, yet the Melbourne consulate is booked out for the next two years. Is there any way to get around this? Is there some way to just go to Italy and get it happening quicker? What kind of visas could have me staying in Germany for an extended period of time? Are there quirks or pains in the ass to Italian citizenship that I should be aware of? I also speak zero Italian, which... could be interesting.

My girlfriend is in the process of trying to find universities that she would like to go to and cities that are good to live in, are there any suggestions or warnings for particular places?

Two young people impromptu deciding to move to an entirely different country where we neither speak the language nor know any of the emotion stress it's sure to cause, what's the worst that could happen? 

[NowhereMan]

As someone living abroad currently, it's really, really important to look into and thoroughly research visas, document requirements, etc. well in advance of making concrete plans. You partner should be fine getting a student visa or whatever for Germany but if you're planning to work (legally!) then you need look at what visa you require and what you need to get it. Since you're Australian there might be some visa waivers in place (you live next door so obviously  ) or you might not need the same level of checks as other nationalities. If you've already got a job and earned income then they may be happy with you just living and paying taxes in the country, although some places aren't too happy with people trying to do that.

I'm really only familiar with China/SEA so I'm sure some other people will have better local advice but one place to start looking might be expat websites Internations has stuff on most countries you can start with.

[Tebonas]

First your girlfriend should check if she really qualifies for the university she has her eyes on. While the Germans have free education, they also have a numerus clausus. Some studies like Medicine are restricted Germanywide, while others are restricted only in some universities.

[ajax34i]

Is the cost of moving + renting + living in Germany (for 2 people) less than the cost of attending uni in Australia?

[IainC]

I can tell you quite a bit from the PoV of a foreigner who moved to Germany. Although I am an EU citizen and didn't need to worry about visas, my ex-wife as an American certainly did. The advice about getting all your paperwork in order before you make plans is a good one. As far as your company is concerned, in order to pay you in Germany, they would need to have a local office to pay you from. If that's not an option then the alternative would be for you to set up a German company yourself and work as a contractor for them (I am not an employment lawyer but that is how it has been explained to me by people who are).

Leaving aside all the legal stuff, I will say that living abroad has been the best decision of my life (although admittedly the bar is pretty low). I seem to end up routinely moving to countries where I don't speak the language. I don't have any special gift for picking up new languages but it's amazing how little of a language you actually need for day-to-day living. Depending on whereabouts in Germany you are, you will find a variety of English fluency. I lived in a tiny rural village in the Black Forest and it was pretty rare for  any random person to speak English, in Berlin or Hamburg though it's much more likely. There are a load of expat resources - especially around Stuttgart, Berlin and Dortmund (all of which are current or former US/UK military centres). I can't imagine however that a German university will teach courses in languages other than German.

I don't know much about Australia so I can't easily compare what the cost of living and level of services would be for you but Germany is a pretty expensive place to live compared with a lot of Europe. For most people, your tax, social security and (compulsory) health insurance deductions will be 45-55% of your pay. You do get a lot of value for that however. Doctor visits are almost free (you pay 10€ for the first visit to any doctor in a 3 month period and nothing after that). Rents are high in cities, not so much in more rural areas. Transport is excellent either personal or public. Long distance trains are expensive but regional ones are very cheap. Every city has some kind of light rail or metro system and buses are frequent even in the countryside. There is still something of an economic divide between the East and West. Big cities in the east like Leipzig have had a lot of investment but many places are still struggling. Bavaria and Baden-Wurttemburg inthe South, and Nord-Rhein Westfalia in the North are where all the money is.

[Baldrake]

I've lived in a number of countries over the years, including Germany. First, I think you'll have a vastly different experience if you are able to go over with an EU passport. Rather than being house-bound, you'll be free to move and work as you please. If it's hard to get advice directly from the Italian consulate, it might be worth hiring a specialist for one session to get some basic information. (In my part of the world, there are immigration lawyers who do this kind of thing. They are expensive and really just do things you could do yourself, but if you're finding that the system is hard to navigate, it might be worth it.)

Second, you'll find that Germans have an astonishingly good level of English. And as an Australian, you will find people open and welcoming. But it's worth learning as much of the language as you can before you go. You will learn slowly while there since you'll be speaking English at home. You want to have enough of a base that it's possible for people to communicate with you in German, or else they will have to speak with you in English and you will never learn.

You will have a great time if you can get this organized. Everything is so close together that you can hop on a train and be somewhere completely different within an hour. Germany has great culture, food and (surprisingly) access to nature. I'd say go for it!

[Yegolev]

I was going to say that this isn't worth a thread since you're just moving a few miles west, but I see Tebonas is posting in here and he'd say something mean.

[Tebonas]

Like if what you implied were true it would actually be a few miles north, because a few miles west there's Switzerland?

Nah, I'd never be THAT mean! 

[Engels]

While Germany is awesome in a million ways, food was not one of the things that impressed me about it when I lived there for 8 months. Granted, my exposure was limited to Hamburg, Berlin and a few day trips to Leipzig and Dresden.

[Baldrake]

Wow, either you're a vegetarian, or people were not taking you to the right restaurants!

[lamaros]

Australia, especially Melbourne and Sydney, has some of the best food in the world. My experience of Germany certainly wasn't at all comparable.

[Baldrake]

I don't want to derail Pagz' thread, and I know everyone has different tastes and experiences. But I'm really surprised.

One thing I found in Germany is that "average" food is enormously better. If you grab a sandwich at lunch, in Germany it will be a on a freshly baked bun made from whole grains. Here, it will be Subway. If you have a quick meal in a pub, in Germany it might be home-made noodles with meat and an interesting sauce; here it is a burger and fries.

[MrHat]

I don't want to derail Pagz' thread, and I know everyone has different tastes and experiences. But I'm really surprised.

One thing I found in Germany is that "average" food is enormously better. If you grab a sandwich at lunch, in Germany it will be a on a freshly baked bun made from whole grains. Here, it will be Subway. If you have a quick meal in a pub, in Germany it might be home-made noodles with meat and an interesting sauce; here it is a burger and fries.

Someone's been taking you to the wrong sandwich lunch shops and pubs.

[Teleku]

German food itself is great, but with Germany (and every other country in central/northern Europe) the quality of the food from the rest of the world can be very hit or miss (you can still usually find one restaurant in the major cities that will do what you're looking for decently).  If your coming from a place like the US, where most major cities on the coasts offer the best food selection in the world, where you can always expect to find a restaurant somewhere that offers the top end of any food type, it can be a bit of a let down.  I imagine Australia is similar in that regard.

But I went through this in Poland, and its fine.  Because Polish and German food is fucking great and so is the beer, and if you don't have fun living in Germany, you are broken.  You can give up top quality ethnic food for a few years.  Or just take a cheap flight down to Italy or Spain for the weekend if you desire the best food in the world.

Edit:  oh yes, moving advice!

Not much I can add.  Sounds like you would be living in a major city for university, so don't worry to much about language.  English is widely spoken in Germany, and it's easy to get around.  I get the impression from friends that it's not hard to get into the EU and hang out for awhile (as long as you are the right color).  You may have to do some visa juggling, but probably doable without to much hassle.  I'm on home leave right now, otherwise I'd just go ask the VISA section about EU rules, sorry.  I know a lot of US firms/startups that hire programmers out of Europe to work remotely, and they don't seem to have issues paying them.  Though a lot of them are in places like Ukraine.   

I would be concerned about language for your girlfriend.  She would need to find a program that's taught in English (they exist, especially for stuff like MBAs).  I have a hard time imagining she will be able to just pick up German within a year to the point she can start taking advance level college courses taught in German, but maybe she is a prodigy. 

In short, What exactly your girlfriend is going to do in Germany as far as college goes is your biggest concern.  From what I've seen, everything else is pretty easy (just because I know a lot of people who have done similar), and Germany is a fantastic country.

[Baldrake]

Someone's been taking you to the wrong sandwich lunch shops and pubs.

Hey, I know that there are good eateries in North America, and I know they have MacDonald's in Germany. All I'm saying is, if you walk into an average place in Germany, no matter how humble, you are probably going to be served a good meal made from fresh ingredients. The same is not even remotely true in North America.

[Engels]

Sorry, not my experience. Walking into the 'average' place in Germany got me a depressing schnitzel or a bockwurst. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, only a little bit worse than your average american diner experience, but there it is. The beer amply made up for it. Even at a high end hoffbrauhaus in Berlin, with wood paneling and brass finishings, their 'top menu' item was a hacked off pork leg with potatoes thrown in the oven. Simple, and even good, if you don't mind eating like freakin' Conan the Barbarian, but not exactly haute cuisine!

I ate waaaay more Italian and Turkish in Germany than German food. Thank GOD for immigration.

[Baldrake]

Ok, I can only conclude that the Germany you guys visited is in an alternate dimension from the one I used to live in. 

[Tebonas]

Far be it from me to defend the Germans, but Hofbrauhaus doesn't sound like a restaurant to me, more like a venue to get beer. Even at the "original" Hofbräuhaus in Munich food is secondary. One could even say they just have food so that you have something in your stomach for being able to drink more beer. The dishes they have tend towards rustic with lots of meat and heavy fixings like dumplings and Sauerkraut. Just like everywhere else in that part of Europe, the menu in a "traditional" restaurant in Talin looked roughly the same, for example.

I've eaten quite well in Berlin and even in Hamburg, even when those northern barbarians do things like killing a perfectly good Schnitzel by contaminating it with some kind of mushroom sauce. Usually you also find enough immigrants to provide you with more exotic dishes and good restaurants have quite a choice of different kinds of food as well. A rule of thumb is though, the later the restaurant still is open and the more alcohol they sell you at a bar, the less diverse the menu is. Slabs of meat or sausages are their version of pizza slices and burgers.

[Engels]

I guess I should have clarified; I ate well enough in Germany, but never found actual good German food, with one small exception of a road side truck stop that had venison sausage that was amazing. I ate Thai, Greek, Turkish, Moroccan and other nation's food in Germany that was quite good, I can say that the Germans know their way around pastry and cakes, no doubt, and I must say that German knockwurst metro stands are fun on a night out, but a 'sit down' restaurant with a for-realz German menu with German food? I guess I never ran into one.

[Pagz]

Is the cost of moving + renting + living in Germany (for 2 people) less than the cost of attending uni in Australia?

It's more a convenient excuse then trying to beat the system.

As someone living abroad currently, it's really, really important to look into and thoroughly research visas, document requirements, etc. well in advance of making concrete plans. You partner should be fine getting a student visa or whatever for Germany but if you're planning to work (legally!) then you need look at what visa you require and what you need to get it. Since you're Australian there might be some visa waivers in place (you live next door so obviously  ) or you might not need the same level of checks as other nationalities. If you've already got a job and earned income then they may be happy with you just living and paying taxes in the country, although some places aren't too happy with people trying to do that.

I'm really only familiar with China/SEA so I'm sure some other people will have better local advice but one place to start looking might be expat websites Internations has stuff on most countries you can start with.

We have no concrete plans yet, but we can already see the entire thing getting bogged down and taking forever. A lot of the uni clauses have a required amount of German speaking ability so she wants to do a unit of that first in Germany before an actual course. However the semester doesn't start until close to the middle of next year and then after the German classes she wouldn't be starting proper until 2017. We're both taking German night classes now but she's already having trouble with the fast pace of the language and pronunciation (which I'm finding a little easier having English as my first language), so we're wondering how hard it's going to be if we try to rush it all.

The German contracting sounds like a good idea, but I'll have to do more research if I can actually do that. I imagine it'd be so much easier if I had EU citizenship, which still looks like a huge pain in the ass to get. The consulate is open from 9am to 12pm  .

First your girlfriend should check if she really qualifies for the university she has her eyes on. While the Germans have free education, they also have a numerus clausus. Some studies like Medicine are restricted Germanywide, while others are restricted only in some universities.

She wants to do something along the lines of marketing, which I think just has a language requirement. Unlike me she has researched this into a fine paste.

I was going to say that this isn't worth a thread since you're just moving a few miles west

Australia, especially Melbourne and Sydney, has some of the best food in the world. My experience of Germany certainly wasn't at all comparable.

If that's the case, I am spoilt and totally screwed abroad  .

Not much I can add.  Sounds like you would be living in a major city for university, so don't worry to much about language.  English is widely spoken in Germany, and it's easy to get around.  I get the impression from friends that it's not hard to get into the EU and hang out for awhile (as long as you are the right color).  You may have to do some visa juggling, but probably doable without to much hassle.  I'm on home leave right now, otherwise I'd just go ask the VISA section about EU rules, sorry.  I know a lot of US firms/startups that hire programmers out of Europe to work remotely, and they don't seem to have issues paying them.  Though a lot of them are in places like Ukraine.   

I would be concerned about language for your girlfriend.  She would need to find a program that's taught in English (they exist, especially for stuff like MBAs).  I have a hard time imagining she will be able to just pick up German within a year to the point she can start taking advance level college courses taught in German, but maybe she is a prodigy. 

In short, What exactly your girlfriend is going to do in Germany as far as college goes is your biggest concern.  From what I've seen, everything else is pretty easy (just because I know a lot of people who have done similar), and Germany is a fantastic country.

She really wants to live in Munich, and while I'm sure where we're going they'll be English speakers, we really want to speak as much German as we can. The idea of visa juggling is interesting, it might have to be the way to go until I can get Italian citizenship.

[lamaros]

Yeah. Like Teleku said about some US cities, the most significant thing is that in Melb and Sydney you can have world class cuisine of near any type, and family restaurants of nearly every type, and fast food of a lot of decent types (especially asian). Europe, not so much. Even in England isn't not at all comparable, especially outside of London. (Note: it has been 9 years since I went to England, so it might have changed a bit).

If you're a vegetarian? Good luck. Gluten free? Not the best choice...

[Lantyssa]

It's been 25 years since I've been there, but I did enjoy Munich quite a bit.  I'd say it's a pretty good choice.

[Bungee]

I guess your gf has her stuff figured out. The most complicated thing will be getting you paid while living there. Maybe see if the German consulate's hours are a little friendlier than those if Italy's and ask them what it takes for you to get self-employed and then be basically a contractor for your current work. Might be the easiest way. (Some links from google)

Other than that, Munich is I think the best city if you want to travel around a lot as it's the most central (EU wise) of all major German cities and has a lot of nice weekend trip worthy sights just half a day by car or train away (Also the closest to Austria ;)). Also, Munich is among if not the most expensive city in Germany, so there's that. There's of course universities close by (Stuttgart, Passau) which share the centrality of Munich without the price tag.

[Baldrake]

No way  . If you're going for a big city in Germany, it has to be Berlin. I mean, seriously.

But strongly consider smaller cities - Freiburg, Heidelberg and the like. They allow you to live your life in the city centre with minimal commutes and have all the amenities you would want - culture, entertainment, beautiful architecture...

[calapine]

Why not Austria (well, Vienna specifically)? 

[calapine]

Yeah. Like Teleku said about some US cities, the most significant thing is that in Melb and Sydney you can have world class cuisine of near any type, and family restaurants of nearly every type, and fast food of a lot of decent types (especially asian). Europe, not so much. Even in England isn't not at all comparable, especially outside of London. (Note: it has been 9 years since I went to England, so it might have changed a bit).

If you're a vegetarian? Good luck. Gluten free? Not the best choice...

I defer to your knowledge of Melbourne  and Sydney cuisine, but the underlined part is stretching it a bit.
Of course if you specially look for restaurants with traditional dishes you will limit your choices somewhat as a vegetarian, as those tend to be more be more meat-heavy. (More so in Germany than in Austria as we focus more on the sweet dishes). But the time that vegetarians were special snowflakes and ignored by restaurants is long past.


Regarding Gluten: Due to 'Regulation (EU) No 1169/2011 of the European Parliament and the Council, on the provision of food information to consumers,', which is in effect since this year, restaurants (and any other gastronomy outlets) are required to inform customers about 14 main allergens in their dishes.  You wont die.  

[kaid]

I don't want to derail Pagz' thread, and I know everyone has different tastes and experiences. But I'm really surprised.

One thing I found in Germany is that "average" food is enormously better. If you grab a sandwich at lunch, in Germany it will be a on a freshly baked bun made from whole grains. Here, it will be Subway. If you have a quick meal in a pub, in Germany it might be home-made noodles with meat and an interesting sauce; here it is a burger and fries.

Learn to love currywurst you probably will wind up eating a lot of it.

[climbjtree]

As far as the language stuff goes: I've spent a lot of time in/around Germany and I've never had a problem with finding people who speak English. If they are under 30 and from Germany, it's almost a guarantee that they speak with near fluency.

e: Oh, and there are approximately a kazillion Aussies in Berlin. It should be noted that this is not based on anything other than personal experience though.

[Baldrake]

Learn to love currywurst you probably will wind up eating a lot of it.

The German answer to poutine...

[Jeff Kelly]

OK first things first.

As far as your girlfriend is concerned moving to Germany is probably pretty easy. If she gets enrolled into a German university programme she's qualified for a educational visa. She could check with Erasmus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme) which is a EU student exchange programe that also offers help and advice for exchange students outside of the EU as part of its Erasmus Mundus programme. Even if she's not eligible for a student exchange programme they'll have a lot of useful info and pointers that will help you.

As far as fees are concerned. Yes German universities don't charge fees - for domestic students and EU students. Fees might apply for foreign exchange students or foreign students from non-EU states though so check with the universities. Education is free of charge because it is paid for by taxes and there are EU agreements that govern how fees and costs are handled for 'foreign' students from other EU members but if you are from a non-EU country you might be required to pay a fees to be able to attend courses so check first.

Thirdly check if the course you want to attend has entrance limits. Certain degrees require entrance exams, others require a certain grade level or equivalent. MBA programmes and medical schools wuld be two examples where the barier to entry is quite high, so check if the course has entry requirements at the university you'd like to go to. Masters programs generally require an entrance exam and a bachelor degree as prerequisites.

With the exception of Berlin cost of living in most west German university cities is very high or even prohibitively high. Munich, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Erlangen, Aachen, Frankfurt, Heidelberg etc. are among the most expensive cities to live in in Germany. A 1 bedroom apartment in Munich may cost you €800 - 1000 or more depending on where you live. Berlin, some of the cities in the "Ruhrgebiet" and most of the smaller universities are comparatively much cheaper cost of living-wise. East German University towns are generally much cheaper to live in and the quality of teaching is on par with their west German counterparts (in fact it might be even better). Unfortunately as an Australian and Chinese not every east German town will be a good choice because xenophobia and violence against foreigners is not that uncommon in certain parts of my country - unfortunately.

As for you, generally it's not that hard to get a working visa. I'd guess that as an Australian it might not be that difficult check with the German consulate. With citizenship of an EU member state it would be trivial though because then you could simply come over here and live wherever you want.

Apart from the immigration and visa stuff the biggest recommendation is to get an EU bank acount. Nearly everything in the EU runs off of your bank account. recurring fees (rent, phone, utilities) are automatically deducted from your account. The option to pay recurring bills via cash or money order is virtually non-existent. Also a lot of day to day business is also done via your bank account. The account is also used for credit checks and without one you'll have a hard time even finding an appartment to live in.

In most cities over a certain population number you'll get around fine without a car. University cities are especially good on the public transport front. You'll also probably have to at first because your driver's license won't be valid in Germany. Check if Germany at least acknowledges the validity of the license of your home country. Then it's just a small bureaucratic act.

[Trippy]

General article on said subject:

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/education/learning-curve/american-students-head-germany-free-college

[calapine]

My main snag at the moment is what the hell I'll be doing over there. My job is online so it really doesn't matter where I am, however work is concerned that I wouldn't be able to legally get paid whilst over there (and they kinda don't want to hire layers to figure it out until closer to the date) so was wondering if anyone here would have any idea about working for a company in a different country?

Visas for me to actually stay over there is a whole other ball game. While she could stay with an education visa my options are a little more limited. My initial thought was to scrape up a lot of paperwork and apply for Italian citizenship through my grandmother, yet the Melbourne consulate is booked out for the next two years. Is there any way to get around this? Is there some way to just go to Italy and get it happening quicker? What kind of visas could have me staying in Germany for an extended period of time? Are there quirks or pains in the ass to Italian citizenship that I should be aware of? I also speak zero Italian, which... could be interesting.

1) As Australian you do not need a Visa to enter Germany, but without you can only stay up to 90 days.

2) In general you need a work permit before being allowed to hold any kind of job.

3) If you have university degree AND and actual, concrete job offer in Germany you can get a "EU Blue Card", which is work & residence permit.

4) If you have a university degree you can apply for a "Jobseeker’s visa". With that you may stay up to 6 months in search for a qualified job. Caveat "While seeking employment, jobseekers are not permitted to work, whether on a self-employed basis or otherwise."

5) If you want to study there you can apply for a residence permit for the duration of studying + 18 months.

Source:
Federal Foreign Office - Studying and working in Germany (en)



I think the best would really be to get Italian citizenship. Which makes you an EU citizen and means in Germany you:

1) Don't need to apply for any kind of work permit

2) You can stay indefinitely as long as you have a job OR at least can prove that you have sufficient means to support yourself.


Two good links I found:

As EU citizen:EU Website - Help and advice for EU nationals and their family

As foreigner: EU Website - EU Immigration Portal

Hope something in there helps.  

[Pagz]

Thank you everyone for your advice! This will be a slow-burning thread, so I'll post updates as they happen (as nothing has really happened in the last month, not a lot has needed to be said).

Reading some of the sites posted one of the options would be to get a residence permit through self-employment? If I create a business and become a "self-employed" freelancer by contracting myself out to the company I work for here in Australia I should become eligible. However it seems dicey because it looks like that's the kind of permit I can only apply for when I'm actually over there. My level of German language would also have to be extremely good as I would have to go through government agencies and hoops not only to get up the business but also maintain it, taxes etc.

The Italian citizenship seems like a huge pain in the ass, I *still* can't make a booking here in Melbourne since they're booked out for the next two years solid and I can't get citizenship if I'm already in Italy. I'm unsure what to do on that front.

[Tmon]

Have you looked at the wait time for other italian consulates in Australia?  https://embassy-finder.com/italy_in_australia  You might have to take a few days off and pony up for flights and hotels but if it cuts down your wait to weeks instead of years it could be worth it.

[Tale]

I'm a Scottish-born Australian, but I speak German and was an exchange student near Munich many years ago. I also really like Berlin, as far as cities go (I prefer rural life and villages). The last time I was there was 2007.

German is a pretty useless travel language compared with French and English, as colonial Germany was not exactly a success (see WWI, WWII). But it's fairly easy for an English-speaker to learn and people will be impressed if you make an effort.

It's a very good society to live in, with fantastic food, drink, sophisticated entertainment venues and general infrastructure, though its winters tend to be even harsher than the UK and France. I looked up real estate prices recently and Germany's have stayed relatively stable and low in comparison to countries that got knocked around by the GFC, as it's remained the engine room of the EU.

If I went back there today I think I'd miss the wide open wild spaces of Australia and the beach. But Germany's not small, and it's pretty safe. It's also great if you enjoy cycling, which I do.