That's So Maven [Formerly "Ethics" or something]

[Maven]

I have found myself  in a questionable situation as a result of Thursday's incident that I described in Useless Conversation. TLDR: One of my teachers is bypassing the enrollment system in order to give seats to students whom she made promises in the past, and I find myself party to the practice after witnessing all the facts.

Long Story: I took two classes with the same teacher this semester as a tactic to get a higher grade in each class. The teacher was also highly ranked.

On Day 1 of the first class, the classroom was packed. The teacher announced there were 35 seats, but somewhere around 60 people showed up. I was on the Wait List for the class and did not have a seat. The teacher took attendance, noting that roughly 8 people were absent. She started calling Wait List names. Five were present, including me: I was number 4. All other students were asked to leave. Add codes would be given out Thursday to give an opportunity to the absent students who were enrolled an opportunity to join class.

On Day 1 of the second class, the same situation arose where the class was full and there were limited open seats. This time, I had an official seat. One student was absent; one student was taken from the wait list. All other students were asked to leave. An acquaintance of mine who I had met last semester confided in me that he wasn't enrolled nor on the Wait List, and was crashing the class. He stayed in the class despite the teacher's instructions.

On Day 2 of the first class, I had the incident described in Useless Conversation. During the student's tirade against me, he stated that the teacher had promised him a seat last semester. Outside the incident, the teacher announced that there were 45 seats in the class. Attendance was taken: 42 students were present (I did not count the number of enrolled names she called on both occasions). Three Wait List students were allowed seats, the rest were asked to leave, including myself.

On Day 2 of the second class, it was confirmed that one student was absent and would be dropped. The slot went to the first person on the Wait List. My acquaintance stayed through the second class. At the end of class, the teacher and he met for a private discussion over a list; I was going to talk to her about finding out the chances of someone dropping and taking the seat in the first class, as I was next on the Wait List. I asked to meet during her office hours, which turned out to be two weeks away.

Between Day 2 and Day 3, I e-mailed the teacher about the incident, indicated I would like to have any seat that opened up, and asked her how best I can check whether a seat became available or not.

On Day 3, in the second class, my acquaintance once again attended class. During attendance, it was openly admitted by him in front of the entire class that he had received a (second) add code.

At the conclusion of Day 3's class, the teacher told me she had received my e-mail and that all she could do for me was promise me a seat in her summer Online-Only class, even if the class was full. I said Yes, but I feel I'm exposing myself to a problem if I don't commit to that Yes or do something quickly about it. This is where I'm at.

There are significant consequences to reporting. First off, she would know I would be the one reporting it. As I have her for class this semester (and have to take her class because of my schedule), this can affect my grades. Second, I would embroil myself in a situation where I have few facts aside from what I observed over the course of three days. Third, even if I was fighting for the seat I missed out, I wouldn't get it -- the student I had the incident with appeared to be one of the students she promised a seat, and may have been granted enrollment (I haven't confirmed it yet). I wouldn't want to be in the same class with him, and the teacher is smart enough to realize that I shouldn't be in the classroom nor should I get confirmation that his official status was ignored and given priority over other students. Fourth, because of the incident with that student has yet to be resolved administratively, the timing could distort the nature of my report; it might be construed as retaliation.

Fifth, all kinds of issues arise from being offered the same deal as her other students. It not only confirmed my suspicions but made me party to them. From one angle it looks like I'm being paid off to remain silent, but on the other she genuinely wants to give me the opportunity I missed out and extended her policy to me.

One of my closest friends advised me to let it lie, take her deal (and I'd only have her word I'd get a slot), get my classes and grades, and let the teacher do what she is doing. I couldn't have been the only one witnessing the conflicting information reported on several days. Other students were turned away that might have gotten seats they were entitled to. My student-teacher relationship is already compromised.

It's one giant clusterfuck. Thoughts?

Edit: I want to report on principle and to enforce fairness in the system, but this time I sense I would be rushing into a situation that's way over my head. I had stayed up until 5 am back in January to get enrolled in the second class and get Wait Listed in the first. When seats opened up for the class prior to the first day, anyone on the Wait List had the opportunity to grab the slot, meaning you had to enroll as quickly as possible after a seat opened.

[schild]

Serious reply: You are not cut out for politics.

Serious question: What the fuck kind of shitty school is this?

[schild]

Ok, actually finished reading this.

1. Why is this class so full? Is it bullshit 101? Is it one of those classes everyone wants to take because it's easy?
2. This system is insane. I don't care about her system, because:
3. Nothing is fair. Ever. If you're not willing to play the game, don't join the game.
4. You report her you're setting precedent of being a pain in the ass, and frankly, you won't like yourself (even more?)

[lamaros]

Do you want the Nerf answer or the real one?

Note, this is in itself an answer.

[Khaldun]

I'm untangling this carefully, reading the first post. I guess I'm still confused about Day 2 of the first class, on two fronts. The other student started an unprovoked tirade against you during discussion? About the issues being covered in the class? When did the question of him having a guaranteed seat come up? This is what seems weird to me. I've had students upset about wait lists and I've had students complain that there seemed to be private or prior agreements about access to the class (or complain that they can't get a private or prior arrangement) but I've never seen a student so clueless as to announce right in the middle of class in front of everyone else that they have an issue of that kind. Let alone have two students getting into it with each other about that issue while everyone (including me) watches.

99% of the time, if there's an issue about wait lists, access and policy, students take it first to the administrative assistant, second to the professor in question IN PRIVATE/AFTER CLASS, third to the department chair and then maybe if it's something really nuts (like "I can't graduate if this class isn't available to me, please help) to the division head or dean. I really do not understand this part.

I'm also not clear on what you're planning to report--that you didn't get in the first class? You're in the second, right? Do you absolutely have to have the first course to graduate?

The rest of what you describe is stuff that I think happens in a lot of places on some level or another--a full class that's full for the reasons Schild suggests (popular/famous professor, required course in a desirable time slot, course with a rep for being easy, course that seems like it's a highway to some kind of interesting job, some combination thereof) where students jockey for spaces in some way or another (meeting w/prof on the side, hanging around hoping that the prof will let them in out of pity, etc.) In general, you're better off complaining about your own need for access--I would generally say that you are not going to make any friends if you complain about somebody else seeming to get a better deal than you.

There's a big difference between rule-governed situations like this and laws where life and death (or imprisonment) are at stake. The rules in an institutional setting are mostly intended just to provide a kind of administrative approximation of fairness--if you act like Phoenix Wright yelling "Objection!" you will irritate a lot of folks, even people very sympathetic to you otherwise. On those occasions where I've had to lottery students out of a class, I try to find a way to get them in to the next similar class I'm teaching, get them into a comparable class taught by a colleague or if I think the person is just so so so genuinely desperate to get in this one class for some reason, I may try to see if I can't create a little more space. If I had somebody getting up and saying, "I will report you to the dean!!!!" I would in fact be kind of annoyed--I'm doing the best I can to make it work out, and there is really no way to parcel out a scarce good (X number of spaces, Y number of people wanting space) in a totally fair way.

The only time I think it might be legitimate to say, "This is unfair to the point that I need to keep pressing on policy with the objective of getting myself a seat" is if it's a class you have to have this particular semester in order to graduate on time. But then that's kind of bush league on the part of the institution (though sadly not unknown). We always make sure that if a student has to have the class to graduate or advance in their major and this is the only plausible time they could take it that we have enough seats in the class to get everyone in that situation a place. I usually go down the list like this: a) must have class to graduate; b) major in this department; c) minor in this department; d) other program of study that includes this class/subject as an integral part of the program of study; e) lottery for everyone else.

[Rendakor]

This whole situation sounds like you giving a fuck when it ain't your turn to give a fuck.

[Samwise]

Your cunning strategy to get the prof to like you by taking multiple classes with her and thereby get better grades in both is UTTERLY going to backfire if you act like an asshole.  I understand that you feel like you're owed a seat in her class, and not getting it is making you angry, and in your mind by being willing to carry this fight all the way to the top you're some sort of cross between Sir Lancelot and Serpico, but you probably don't have all of the information necessary to know whether she's being "fair" or not.  For all you know the other dude has a terminal illness and this is his last chance to take this class before he croaks.

In fact, that's a useful way to approach this general type of problem.  Go ahead and pretend the other guy has a terminal illness, or that he's already been through this same waitlist drama three semesters running, or whatever, and then in considering your next move, ask yourself if in light of that situation you would look like a tremendous flaming asshole for making whatever move you're considering.  (In game theory terms this is an example of the "minimax" strategy.)

It also sounds like it might be in your best interests not to be in the same class as this individual for the rest of the semester anyway.  Taking the class at a later date could be a better deal all around.

[Paelos]

You sound like the guy who didn't get a raid slot.

Seriously, this is what you're worried about? It's fucking ridiculous. You know how much individual classes matter in the real world? Jack shit. Take the stuff, make good grades, put it on your resume and after you get a job in your field absolutely nobody will ever reference what you did in college again except for parties and/or sports.

I mean fuck, dude.

[Rasix]

Go HAM, dude.  Fight the system.

[schild]

Paelos is basically right.

Except in your case, I highly suggest booting up Quake 3 Arena and not going to parties.

[Fordel]

That gif gets funnier the more I watch it.

[Abagadro]

Quit being a dipshit. Be glad you are in one tough-to-get-into class and take advantage of the offer to get you into the other one. FFS.

[Mazakiel]

Yep.  This reads as if you're blowing the whole thing WAY out of proportion, you just need to take the class you're in, and take the other in the summer as offered.  Or find a different professor to take the class from if you need it this semester.  I've been in a situation where a class I would have liked to have was full and being on the wait list didn't get me anywhere.  It sucks, but that's just part of life.  I doubt there's some vast and nefarious conspiracy on the part of the professor to screw over students.  Take it at face value:  She knows you wanted to get into her class and it hasn't worked, so she's trying to help you out for next semester. 

As Paelos said, this stuff is something no one will care about once you're out of college except you.  If this professor is part of your major/program, you can make your life a lot more difficult from here on out by going crazy over this stuff, because again, this sounds like nothing worth causing a big stink over. 

[HaemishM]

One of my closest friends advised me to let it lie, take her deal (and I'd only have her word I'd get a slot), get my classes and grades, and let the teacher do what she is doing.

Your friend sounds like someone who is not going to be getting an ulcer worrying about trying to change shit he has no hope of changing. Unlike, it would appear, you.

[Maven]

I'm going to crawl back into my hole where I belong.

[HaemishM]

Jesus fuck, dude. Not to pile on or anything, but really... you take shit way way too personally, and it is going to end up killing you. Either from you eating a gun or burning a hole in your stomach. I realize you are on meds and seeking help, but it does not appear to be working.

[schild]

Get clinically diagnosed with what the fuck ever.

Grats, you can now register before everybody.

Seriously, you're doing literally everything pretty inefficiently.

[Abagadro]

I'm going to crawl back into my hole where I belong.

See this is the completely wrong fucking attitude. You deleted your avatar and, apparently, are going back into lurker status. Fuck that noise.

I'm fairly drunk at this point because I had an unbelievably shitty day. I basically was fucking pantsed in front of an assembled crowd of the public, my boss, my boss's boss, the legislative body of my employer, and the local media, live on camera.  I then had to go scramble to write a four page, single spaced memo in a couple of hours to salvage my shit, then go back and get grilled again by said legislative body, again in front of my boss, and my boss's boss.  All of this related to a several hundred million dollar project that is incredibly high profile on a national scale.  I ultimately think I pulled the shit out of the fire, but who the fuck knows how this will all shake out.  That's the kind of shit that gives ulcers out here.  What I didn't do was flip out and actively make things worse.  Sometimes you need to step back, take a breath, and sublimate your own rage/sense of justice/anger to make things right. Then you go bitch to your friends/girlfriend/wife/message board about how unjust it all is, and move on.

You are dealing with people on average 10-25 years older than you are. We have been through shit. We have dealt with shit. Maybe take a fucking second to reflect that maybe we actually give a flying fuck about you (despite being a random, anonymous shitheal on a website, that's what is amazing about this tiny little dust-bunny corner of the intertubes), and are trying to impart some genuinely earned wisdom based upon not only going through some crap, but having the self-awareness to know that we didn't always handle it all that well. It may be snarky and it may be harsh, but there are pearls of god honest truth in it.  So step back, drop the ego, and maybe learn a fucking thing or two.

Of course, I am also quite drunk. So whatever.  

[Montague]

What Abagadro said.

If you absolutely cannot let shit go to the point that you're calling the cops over fucking class seats in college, I shudder to think what's going to happen when you get into the real world. Like a client wanting to tear your eyeballs out over something you've got no control over, but if you lose that client it's your job. Or in my case the FAA breathing down my neck over something I've warned our company about repeatedly but which was fucked off by upper management until now, and now I've got to make excuses for said upper management to get the feds off our backs. Schild is right, the WORLD is unfair, and if you don't get this sorted out immediately your degree will be meaningless because you won't be able to keep a job from all the tilting at windmills you'll be doing.  

[Nebu]

Long Story: I took two classes with the same teacher this semester as a tactic to get a higher grade in each class. The teacher was also highly ranked.

As a university professor, I'll give this little tidbit of advice.

Stop doing this.

1) Gaming the system for grades is a waste of your EDUCATION money.

2) Highly rated teacher?  By whom?  Students, by and large, are not qualified to judge the ability of someone to teach.

As for the rest, you can avoid ALL OF THIS by registering on time and getting seats when they are available. 

[schild]

Nebu and I disagree on this point:

Learning how to game the system is the most valuable thing you can do in college. (Edit: CAVEAT: This only applies if you aren't going to school for a very specific degree, in which case, you should still learn how to game the system, but take your core classes fucking seriously).

Learning how to game any system is how you bend the American Dream over your knee and make it your bitch.

I stand by my "Get diagnosed to get an advantage" comment.

[apocrypha]

If you want to actually challenge this (which, along with everyone else in this thread, I advise against) then the only way to do it is with the backing of the rest of the class. You on your own - no dice, you'll just mark yourself as a troublemaker and lose.

You along with everyone else - you've got a chance, but you'll mark yourself out as a dangerous troublemaker. Worth it if that's what you want to be in life.

But, this doesn't sound like something worth taking a stand on. Brush it off, get on with important things. When I was a student these were considered to be sex, drugs, rock & roll and... er.. that was about it.

[Margalis]

This is like a word problem from hell.

I feel like it doesn't even matter what your wrote - the details are completely irrelevant. You might as well have written 10 paragraphs about how you ordered a cheese pizza but it had mushrooms on it. Basically you're blowing it out of proportion, and also blowing the responses here out of proportion.

You're being silly - but people act silly all the time. There's no need to be embarrassed or crawl into a hole. You got worked up about something pretty minor - it happens. This is not some unrecoverably shameful incident. It sounds like your teacher is trying to do you a favor by finding a way to slot you in somehow - just take it.

The thing about being trapped in your own head, as you appear to be, is that you assume that everyone is as invested as you are. That they are going to remember every little slight against them or every mistake you've made and obsess over it the way you do. You're maybe thinking "oh my god now everybody on F13 thinks I'm some crazy ass or something!" The second I close this tab I will never think about this again.

There was a time in my life when I was kind of depressed and would constantly think about what other people thought of me. But the reality is that most people thought nothing at all, and people who did think anything quickly forgot or moved on. What seems like an external problem - that you come off as weird or that people don't like you or think you're a drama queen or aloof robot or whatever else, is actually just an internal problem, with other people's perception of you greatly exaggerated in your own mind.

Basically: chill out. It's cool man!

Go HAM, dude.  Fight the system.

Bonus points for capitalizing HAM.

[Ironwood]

One of my closest friends advised me to let it lie

And you ought to take that advice.  You should also keep this friend, though it's hard to do through Uni.

[Khaldun]

Actually, if you want to get your Machiavelli on, convince some other student who is annoyed that the rules were bent to go complain about it.

Look, don't take the unanimous verdict of the community that you should handle this differently too badly. It's just a confirmation of something you know already and have talked about--that your instincts for reading situations like this are not at the moment accurate.

I talk some with students about this--you could file it under "emotional intelligence". In general, that's a much harder thing to improve on if you're neuroatypical in some way, if you're suffering from any kind of mental illness, but also it's just hard to learn for most people even if there's no reason why per se. It takes experience, usually, and that includes making mistakes. But it's important to functioning well at work and in life.

Break it down like this: emotional intelligence involves understanding:
a) how other people work inside
b) how facial expressions and body language give you information about how people are reacting in real time to what's happening
c) how systems, institutions, organizations, etc. work politically and socially--they all have tons of unstated or implicit rules and habits
d) how to shape your own language, expression, body posture, etc. to the situation as it stands so that you accomplish your goals to the extent that it's possible to do so--you have to assess the limits and capacities of your own power in a situation

That's where what Abagadro is saying about his own day is a good guide. You can walk into some rooms and situations and just know that the only thing you can do is not fuck up. You can't win, it won't be fair, and you can't say anything about what you're really thinking when that moment arrives. Sometimes you're there to take a beating and the only thing you can think about is whether you're being set up as someone else's patsy and whether that's just a thing that happens or if it's being done to you with special malice. And about whether you have the option and desire to get out of that situation later on--because sometimes there's important and satisfying work to be done that just requires on occasion being the guy who takes the blame.

And at some point, emotional intelligence becomes a problem in its own right. Sociopaths are masters of emotional intelligence--the problem is that they have no genuineness or authenticity of their own, they use it entirely to manipulate others. So don't lose a sense of who you really are while you try to learn who other people are. That might eventually let you be the guy who thinks that the rules should be followed, or the guy who gets angry at the smarmy person who selfishly bends the rules. But don't be that guy until you're ready to be that guy, because you can't do that well until you go to emotional intelligence boot camp.

[Merusk]

Khaldun I'm pretty sure you just broke-down Aspergers symptoms.

Which is what I've been thinking is the problem the whole time. I dunno, I'm not a professional, Maven, but you might want to ask your Dr. about the possibility. The inability to read social ques and break-down human behavior is a pretty big indicator, as far as I know things. Of course, it could also be a side-effect of your meds.

This is why we have pros to diagnose this sort of thing. The rest of humanity is really just there to go, "Yo, that's not acceptable social behavior. Consult someone."

You're WAY off the mark about letting this bother you, though. Shit happens, you don't know all the information and you're not going to endear yourself to this professor you desperately want to take a class with by reporting it.  You're also going to hurt yourself in the one class you do have if you DO say something.

Also, taking the class later works out better anyway. People develop casual relationships over time, not over a concentrated amount of time with someone. Developing a relationship with a professor or co-worker over a year is going to work out better than dealing with them twice as much over half the time.  There's a tipping point at which you become a nuisance rather than a familiar face and it's sooner rather than later for casual acquaintances.

[shiznitz]

  Students, by and large, are not qualified to judge the ability of someone to teach.

Oh Puh-leeze. The taught are the best qualified to judge the teachers, certainly at the college level. I agree that asking 2nd graders is not all that valuable.

[Nebu]

Oh Puh-leeze. The taught are the best qualified to judge the teachers, certainly at the college level. I agree that asking 2nd graders is not all that valuable.

I'll let you read my evaluations sometime.  These include insightful commentary such as "Dr. Nebu couldn't teach a goat to shit".  Students are not content experts.  They only can evaluate whether a teacher appeals to their learning style or not.  While that tidbit can be valuable, it's often overlooked by students during the evaluation process.  Typically you only hear from the people that had issue with your style, not your ability. 

[Trippy]

Well, can you?

[Samwise]

That's some good grief title material right there.

[schild]

Oh Puh-leeze. The taught are the best qualified to judge the teachers, certainly at the college level. I agree that asking 2nd graders is not all that valuable.

I'll let you read my evaluations sometime.  These include insightful commentary such as "Dr. Nebu couldn't teach a goat to shit".  Students are not content experts.  They only can evaluate whether a teacher appeals to their learning style or not.  While that tidbit can be valuable, it's often overlooked by students during the evaluation process.  Typically you only hear from the people that had issue with your style, not your ability.  

When you're dealing with undergrads, teaching style is nearly more important than what you're teaching.

Go take a comp sci class taught by someone fresh off the boat who literally knows more than god but can barely speak english and get back to me on how it went.

Style is why people love folks like Neil deGrasse Tyson, etc.

FAKE EDIT: YES, I KNOW THAT'S A LITTLE RACIST. I'M STILL BUTTHURT, DAMN.

[Engels]

I think its not that clear cut, Dr. Goat Evacuator. I think it varies from subject to subject. Learning in the hard sciences can be evaluated with non-subjective tests that show whether a teacher is, in fact, reaching their performance goals. If student evaluations are poor on a professor that otherwise has well-graded students in the hard science curricula, then you'd be correct. However, I suspect that that scenario is rarer in subjects where evaluation is far more subjective.

Also, Maven, this looks like a big deal now, but read Aba's post again. THAT is a bad day. You're having a frustrating teachable moment, from which you can learn, but for goodness sakes, don't torpedo yoursefl by thinking that any of it really matters. You'll take the course at some point, you'll pass, or not, and move on to the next, and by the time you're sat behind a desk asked to do a job people are actively giving you money to do, you'll be as bewildered as we are now as to why this seemed to matter to you.

[Nebu]

When you're dealing with undergrads, teaching style is nearly more important than what you're teaching.

Evaluations are a fickle thing.  If I'm teaching a large service course, I disregard them.  If I'm teaching a senior/grad level course in field, I take them VERY seriously.  

I also agree that communication is key.  I find that all of my teaching awards have come because my students know that I care rather than the use of technology or style.  Students just want to know what their expectations are and they'll perform.  Making them guess is the sure way to piss them off.

Also, Maven, this looks like a big deal now, but read Aba's post again. THAT is a bad day. You're having a frustrating teachable moment, from which you can learn, but for goodness sakes, don't torpedo yoursefl by thinking that any of it really matters. You'll take the course at some point, you'll pass, or not, and move on to the next, and by the time you're sat behind a desk asked to do a job people are actively giving you money to do, you'll be as bewildered as we are now as to why this seemed to matter to you.

This ^^^ 

If you think the drama in school is a big deal, just wait until you get into the working world.

[WayAbvPar]

This whole idiotic thread was worth it for Dr. Goat Evacuator. 

[Hawkbit]

Go take a comp sci class taught by someone fresh off the boat who literally knows more than god but can barely speak english and get back to me on how it went.

It's a bit of both.

I took a Java programming class at Ohio State when I was in my first undergrad. I knew I wanted to be working in CIS, but couldn't hack studying it at a major university because I'm more hands-on than theory. The first words out of the professor's mouth was "I don't speak good English", he literally knew ~100 English words, and six weeks later I dropped out of the course along with roughly 20% of the rest of the class. Sure, it was a weed-out course. But language never should have been a barrier in a course about languages.

On the other hand, I have become pretty good Internet-friends with one of my professors from this recent bout at school. He's confirmed the "teach a goat to shit"-esque comments on reviews. There were quite a few of those types of remarks, more than I expected. His response? "If I don't have 10% of the people I interact with mad at me, then I'm not doing something right."