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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Topic: SOE now Daybreak, bought by Columbus Nova, going.... "indie?" 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: SOE now Daybreak, bought by Columbus Nova, going.... "indie?"  (Read 24556 times)
Sutro
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Posts: 162


Reply #175 on: July 20, 2015, 11:05:45 AM

It's pretty simple. Yes, he's entitled to be angry and he can choose to express his frustration. And, as he said, he has to own the consequences of that. It's not good behavior for a CEO of an oft-targeted company, but he's a smart enough guy that he knew that as he was typing it.

I don't know what his personal situation is, but I think a LOA or retirement might be a good call when you find yourself driven to that type of decision and level of anger over your work.

Raph
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Title delayed while we "find the fun."


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Reply #176 on: July 20, 2015, 11:35:59 AM

In general I agree he didn't handle it great. But I don't see how something that started with DDOSing multiple companies gets handwaved away as "it started with shitposting." It started with DDOSing multiple companies. :P
kaid
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Reply #177 on: July 20, 2015, 03:03:45 PM

In general I agree he didn't handle it great. But I don't see how something that started with DDOSing multiple companies gets handwaved away as "it started with shitposting." It started with DDOSing multiple companies. :P

And a fake bomb scare on a plane in flight. Its pretty easy to see how once escalated to that level somebody could lose their cool and make some posts that may not be terribly constructive.
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #178 on: July 20, 2015, 03:16:06 PM

What I am trying to get at is that we have a serious asymmetry between the protagonists here: One one side, you have the forces normally considered to be powerful (law, business, social custom) and on the other you have a formless mass of unfunny pranksters that are almost impossible to trace and counter-attack. And it may seem like I am trying to minimize the significance of their actions, but from their POV, what they are doing is just fucking around, like any tagger spray-painting a wall or gang of kids throwing rocks at windows in a construction site. It's malicious mischief Internet-Style, for the most part it isn't calculated, not serving any larger purpose.

They do it because they can, because it's easy, because they can get away with it, and because it makes so many people fume in impotent rage. You know, 'fun'.

--Dave

--Jello Biafra: "If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve."
Raph
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Reply #179 on: July 20, 2015, 03:56:41 PM

Yeah, I agree with that. The asymmetry of course calls to mind various forms of insurgent warfare and how ineffectual conventional power can be when faced with those tactics, but I agree that pranksterism is the root motive. That said, being unaware of scale and proportion in pranks is what leads from mischief to criminal mischief to anarchist behavior that can be seriously damaging. I'm not some sort of heavyhanded moralist here, but there are ways to construct awesome pranks that limit harm, etc. They clearly don't seem to care very much.

I stand by my point that treatng them "like the weather" or dismissing it with a "kids these days" isn't really the right response, in the end.
Threash
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Reply #180 on: July 20, 2015, 04:28:00 PM

Neither is giving them exactly the kind of attention they crave.

I am the .00000001428%
Raph
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Reply #181 on: July 20, 2015, 06:17:25 PM

I agree with that too. Publicizing the bad behavior just leads to more of it, people feel rewarded by the attention, etc. The answer is going to be somewhere in between.
Lantyssa
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Reply #182 on: July 20, 2015, 07:05:27 PM

Which brings us back to my original comment in that Smed should rant and raved to his friends and loved ones while trashing his Twitter account instead of the trolls.

One man against an amorphous blob isn't going to result in anything constructive.  Best to plug what cracks you can and otherwise ignore it so it can search for juicier targets.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Yegolev
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Reply #183 on: July 20, 2015, 08:29:29 PM

Best to plug what cracks you can and otherwise ignore it so it can search for juicier targets.

Great life advice for the young man about town.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Fabricated
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Reply #184 on: July 21, 2015, 02:23:37 PM

I agree with that too. Publicizing the bad behavior just leads to more of it, people feel rewarded by the attention, etc. The answer is going to be somewhere in between.
The problem is that the legal system for this sort of stuff is pretty slow/ineffective.

Like, if you're an American and a Croatian hacker decides to fuck with you and SWAT you or send a bomb threat or whatever- what's your recourse? What if it's a country that could give 1/5th of a shit?

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Mandella
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Posts: 470


Reply #185 on: July 22, 2015, 04:13:57 PM

I agree with that too. Publicizing the bad behavior just leads to more of it, people feel rewarded by the attention, etc. The answer is going to be somewhere in between.
The problem is that the legal system for this sort of stuff is pretty slow/ineffective.

Like, if you're an American and a Croatian hacker decides to fuck with you and SWAT you or send a bomb threat or whatever- what's your recourse? What if it's a country that could give 1/5th of a shit?

Which, apparently, includes Finland....
Raph
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Reply #186 on: July 22, 2015, 04:25:49 PM

To be fair to Finland, they

found the kid
arrested him
tried him
found him guilty
confiscated his hardware
sentenced him to two years community service
gave him a permanent criminal record
also put him under two years of Internet activity surveillance

That's actually quite a lot compared to the typical Internet harasser, who doesn't even gets found. So while we can feel that the punishment should be stronger, it's in keeping with treating him as a minor...

I think he deserved more, but they didn't do NOTHING, which is what typically happens in the US. :P
ezrast
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Reply #187 on: July 23, 2015, 01:56:30 AM

Looks like Smedley's getting the boot, though the exact nature of the boot is yet to be announced. Or maybe he just got sick of being in charge, but the wording sure makes it sound involuntary.
Falconeer
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Reply #188 on: July 23, 2015, 04:12:34 AM

The idea of crime & punishment is very different in different cultures. I am not gonna delve deep into it because it is a very very very very messy topic. Everyone is entitled their feelings about this, but suffice to say that in some countries (or states) prison is seen as a punishment, while in some others is seen as an instrument to recover harmful individuals, as that's considered the most efficient way to improve a community. This is an oversimplification, I know, but it outlines the huge conceptual difference that can be observed even within the US from state to state.

This documentary about the idea of prison in Finland, Sweden and Norway is beyond interesting. It's about a US prison guard visiting those countries and being shown around some local correctional facilities. So worth watching if you have an open mind, despite the obvious holes due to time constraints (it's 30 minutes). Let's also not forget that in those countries the crime rates are very low. But numbers at hand it's hard to argue that their system does not work for them.

Draegan
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Reply #189 on: July 23, 2015, 08:20:53 AM

Looks like Smed has stepped down.
shiznitz
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the plural of mangina


Reply #190 on: July 23, 2015, 01:36:46 PM

Looks like Smedley's getting the boot, though the exact nature of the boot is yet to be announced. Or maybe he just got sick of being in charge, but the wording sure makes it sound involuntary.

That reads like good old solid accountability. It may not have been Smed's fault, but the buck stops at the CEO.

I have never played WoW.
palmer_eldritch
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Reply #191 on: July 24, 2015, 09:44:43 AM

Hi, this seems like a good place to mention that Daybreak has just opened a "time-locked expansion server" for EQ2. I think people usually call this a progression server. So in the unlikely event that anyone here has been looking for a good opportunity to try out EQ2, now might be a good time!

(I know it's off topic but I thought it deserved a mention beyond the Gaming Graveyard).
« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 09:54:36 AM by Yegolev »
Draegan
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Posts: 9023


Reply #192 on: July 24, 2015, 03:42:49 PM

My good friend who was addicted to this game 8-10 years ago got me to play with him casually.

It's rough. It's grindy and old school as fuck. I only have to sit still and press buttons so I can watch tv while playing even more so than LFR in WOW.
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #193 on: July 24, 2015, 04:05:29 PM


--Jello Biafra: "If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve."
Venkman
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Reply #194 on: July 24, 2015, 04:48:01 PM

Why is this being treated like some new phenomenon?

This is open world PvP with all game tools available for everyone, and hands off "moderators" benefiting from the quantity of activity in their "game" (social media) so much the quality of it doesn't matter.

Decent people don't accept it. Instead they leave. Then the business interests aren't being served anymore, and thus you get trammeled.

Seems like that's what's going on over at Reddit anyway.

I truly feel bad for Smedley. He didn't realize he was entering the bad part of town, and bringign his family along with it.

I understand why some can be concerned with the idea of victim-blaming. I get that. But it's so easy to get set up as a target nowadays, it's kind of hard to know when you've become one. It's like instead of walking down a dark alley with hundreds sticking out of your pocket, you're walking down a well known well lit street that suddenly changed around you.

Kinda like that scene in Sherlock Holmes Game of Shadows where the whole restauarant just up and leaves at Moriarty's dinging.
schild
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Reply #195 on: July 24, 2015, 06:10:32 PM

Quote
I truly feel bad for Smedley. He didn't realize he was entering the bad part of town, and bringign his family along with it.

I understand why some can be concerned with the idea of victim-blaming. I get that. But it's so easy to get set up as a target nowadays, it's kind of hard to know when you've become one.

Patently disagree. Everyone here knows I like Smedley, so I'll keep this short and blunt (as always ¯\_(ツ)_/¯).

If you're gonna be a CEO or executive at any company - not even just gaming - and you want to say shit on something like Twitter, fucking don't, because that urge you just had is why you're stupid and will fail.

Talking is fucking bush league.
Threash
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Reply #196 on: July 24, 2015, 06:18:48 PM

Quote
I truly feel bad for Smedley. He didn't realize he was entering the bad part of town, and bringign his family along with it.

I understand why some can be concerned with the idea of victim-blaming. I get that. But it's so easy to get set up as a target nowadays, it's kind of hard to know when you've become one.

Patently disagree. Everyone here knows I like Smedley, so I'll keep this short and blunt (as always ¯\_(ツ)_/¯).

If you're gonna be a CEO or executive at any company - not even just gaming - and you want to say shit on something like Twitter, fucking don't, because that urge you just had is why you're stupid and will fail.

Talking is fucking bush league.

This right here.  If you want to rant do it in private to your family and friends, not on the internet to millions of people.  Sooner or later "the internet is not my private playground" needs to sink in.

I am the .00000001428%
Merusk
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Reply #197 on: July 24, 2015, 06:26:27 PM

Exactly. You're a CEO of a multi-million-dollar company, you should have better things to do than be on Twitter. CEOs outside of the tech sector get this, but the ones most likely to get bit by it don't.

You have a department for this shit. Let them do their job so at the least you have plausible deniability of stupid things said.  Better to look like you mis-vetted someone than to prove you're the asshole.

http://www.ceo.com/social_ceo/fortune-500-ceos-on-twitter/

Notice anything there? Tweets per day are pretty much 0. Learn from this.

I can't get past the panties - Alluvian
I really like the cocks. - Lantyssa
People rarely believe just how good I am at sucking. - Lantyssa
I love the swinging dongs - Signe
Venkman
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Reply #198 on: July 24, 2015, 10:55:27 PM

He HAD a department for this shit, before Daybreak, but maybe I don't have the timing right. Was he making himself a target while still employed at SOE or did it happen after?

But let's not pretend he's some unique case. We know cause and effect in his case. But I don't for a second think the even more recognizable names out there aren't also getting hacked and Swatted and shit either. Cook, Ellis, Zuckerberg, what group wouldn't want to try to take them down? US Treasury? White House? That's happened already. Just existing as something the media talks about for 15 minutes automatically puts you on a list for someone to show interest in. Yes, literally calling them out puts you higher on the list.

My point is that the tools of the internet allow the "bad guys" to have an easy* run of the place. The only real defense currently is obscurity. Unless the moderators show up or all this shit gets trammeled.

* "Easy" is contextual.
Raph
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Reply #199 on: July 25, 2015, 01:06:14 AM

To be fair, we also need to mention that SOE's image had a dramatic positive turnaround with the community management done by Linda Carlson and by Smed engaging directly with the playerbase. Night and day to the old image. That's the tradeoff right there.
Lantyssa
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Reply #200 on: July 25, 2015, 01:16:05 PM

My point is that the tools of the internet allow the "bad guys" to have an easy* run of the place. The only real defense currently is obscurity. Unless the moderators show up or all this shit gets trammeled.
This is true, but threatening someone over a verdict in a publicized case against a member of a group that was harassing you is about the exact opposite of obscurity.  It's painting a giant target on your ass with a blinking "kick me" name tag hovering over your head.

Every big company is a target.  You're still in a field of targets, so don't encourage the entire range to pick you.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #201 on: July 25, 2015, 02:09:39 PM

Unfortunately, Smed let it get personal. This is understandable at a moral level, since they came after him personally. But by responding publicly to express his personal outrage, he lit a giant sign over the head of himself and Daybreak, "FREE LULZ OVER HERE!" in flaming letters a mile high. So the entire trollverse piled in.

I'm not saying he was *wrong*, I am saying it was unwise. The trolls are in the moral wrong, but they don't give a shit and unfortunately nobody seems to have the power to make them. So yeah, at a business level, trolls and their associated black hats have to be treated as a force of nature. You don't try to explain to an earthquake or a hurricane how wrong it would be to mess up so much real estate, and appeal to their sense of decency and fairness, their conscience, because they don't have one.

Neither do the trolls.

--Dave

--Jello Biafra: "If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve."
Merusk
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Reply #202 on: July 27, 2015, 10:27:42 AM

That's actually a really good analogy. Even with Facebook-linked comments that TRY to enforce some sort of accountability, you still run into troll after troll who doesn't give a shit. Primarily because they're not in the person's face and "LOL INTERNET" is still the mindset of the majority of the population.

When accountability for online actions actually happens, people flock to the idea that 'it's unfair' or 'not right' that Jane Smith got fired for calling Jose Smith an ethic slur and that she should die in a fire with all her ethnic friends.  After all it was 'only' on the internet and outside of work.

I can't get past the panties - Alluvian
I really like the cocks. - Lantyssa
People rarely believe just how good I am at sucking. - Lantyssa
I love the swinging dongs - Signe
kaid
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Posts: 2938


Reply #203 on: July 27, 2015, 04:19:22 PM

Quote
I truly feel bad for Smedley. He didn't realize he was entering the bad part of town, and bringign his family along with it.

I understand why some can be concerned with the idea of victim-blaming. I get that. But it's so easy to get set up as a target nowadays, it's kind of hard to know when you've become one.

Patently disagree. Everyone here knows I like Smedley, so I'll keep this short and blunt (as always ¯\_(ツ)_/¯).

If you're gonna be a CEO or executive at any company - not even just gaming - and you want to say shit on something like Twitter, fucking don't, because that urge you just had is why you're stupid and will fail.

Talking is fucking bush league.

Yup the best that will come of it is you feed the trolls which never ends well. Best to not say anything of this nature no matter how tempting on a twitter or similar account if you are a ceo. It can only hurt you it can never help.
kaid
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Posts: 2938


Reply #204 on: July 27, 2015, 04:29:24 PM

To be fair, we also need to mention that SOE's image had a dramatic positive turnaround with the community management done by Linda Carlson and by Smed engaging directly with the playerbase. Night and day to the old image. That's the tradeoff right there.


Things like this is why trion was super lucky to be able to snag the services of linda. She can really nail the community interactions in constructive ways without feeding the trolls.
Ruvaldt
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Goat Variations


Reply #205 on: August 20, 2015, 07:11:22 AM

Daybreak is creating a prison server for Everquest II.

Instead of banning players for disruptive and exploitative behavior they are simply going to be sentenced to serve their time in EQII on a remote server named Drunder so that they can be quarantined from the rest of the playerbase.  Not only will people be forced to go there if CS deems them to be an unredeemable shitheel, but you can actually choose to go if you really want to play in the wild west.

"Drunder will get no customer service support and it will require a maintained membership to access and play. Rather than disrupt live servers in an attempt to join the “prison server,” players can use our /petition system and ask to join Drunder. To be clear: You won’t be able to move individual characters to this server, while maintaining characters from the same account on another server. This is a ONE-WAY trip for an entire account forever."

I think it's ingenious.

"For a long time now I have tried simply to write the best I can. Sometimes I have good luck and write better than I can." - Ernest Hemingway
Yegolev
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Reply #206 on: August 20, 2015, 11:49:44 AM

Yes.  Why did this take 16 years to implement?

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Chimpy
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Reply #207 on: August 20, 2015, 01:46:55 PM

Yes.  Why did this take 16 years to implement?

It took being bought by Russians. They, after all, were historically very big on permanent vacations to the gulags for any transgressions against the state.  why so serious?

'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
Kail
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Reply #208 on: August 20, 2015, 02:20:10 PM

Yes.  Why did this take 16 years to implement?

Because it's more expensive than banning and unlikely to fix anything, probably.

I've seen it done a fair amount on non-mmo games, where obnoxious players are set to "prison island" where they're only matched with other players on the island, and the net effect is that it reinforces the behavior.  If you ever let them back out in to the main population, they're likely to be just as bad or worse than they were before.  If you don't let them out then forcing them to interact with the worst of the worst all day generally drives them to leave the game altogether.  Ultimately the question arises of why you didn't just ban them in the first place.
Yegolev
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Reply #209 on: August 20, 2015, 02:21:37 PM

Because they keep paying a sub?

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
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