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Author Topic: Total Warhammer  (Read 14721 times)
Sophismata
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Reply #35 on: January 22, 2015, 01:51:07 AM

I've found all the TW games lacklustre since Medieval One. The first.

That was the last game where battles were fun, tactical, and always fought over an actual province.

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eldaec
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Reply #36 on: January 25, 2015, 04:52:42 AM

Total war games have all been good if the titles include the word "Shogun" and I've found them at least playable with the word "Medieval". Beyond that, not so much.

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Reply #37 on: January 25, 2015, 09:51:48 AM

No love for the original rome?

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Ruvaldt
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Reply #38 on: January 25, 2015, 11:00:50 AM

I've always thought Rome was the height of the series.  It never got any better than that for me.

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Reply #39 on: January 25, 2015, 11:37:58 AM

Yeah that was the only one I played a lot of.
Paelos
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Reply #40 on: January 25, 2015, 12:08:37 PM

I've always thought Rome was the height of the series.  It never got any better than that for me.

It was in my mind too. I want the to debug and update it, and I'd play it like I play M&B

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eldaec
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Reply #41 on: January 25, 2015, 06:06:33 PM

No love for the original rome?

Lot of people liked it, but I never took to it. I think it was the sieges in particular.

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sickrubik
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Reply #42 on: April 22, 2015, 11:14:47 AM


beer geek.
satael
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Reply #43 on: April 22, 2015, 12:58:52 PM


Just "coming soon" so I'm rather interested whether this or Mount&Blade: Bannerlords will get released first (hopefully both will get released though it's been really quiet on m&b's part for a while).
Speedy Cerviche
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Reply #44 on: April 23, 2015, 10:39:34 AM

Taleworlds is always super quiet, but they have been working on M&B2 for like 4-5 years, and one would assume at whatever pace they need given no shortage of funds because of previous success. So it can't be THAT far off...right?

Not seeing very good reviews to TW Attila, pretty doubtful that this Warhammer game will be anything more than another shitshow unless they have gone back to the drawing board (again) on the engine. I mean they should, but they have been pretty awful at everything post MTW2/Sega buyout.
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Reply #45 on: April 23, 2015, 10:43:20 AM

Slightly off topic, Total War: Arena so far is surprisingly good even though it's just alpha stage. Multiplayer Only, 10v10, it's Total War meet World of Tanks.

March
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Reply #46 on: April 23, 2015, 05:53:05 PM

My mostly uninformed take is that if the game is just a Total War game re-skinned with Warhammer stuff, then it will probably not grab me.  If, on the other hand, the Total War folks are using their "expertise" to build Warhammer rules into their engine it might be really neat.

It is one of the mysteries of the universe why a good Warhammer tabletop sim has never been built.  I get that it is probably a GW thing... but their strategy is not forcing me to spend my money on their physical game, it just causes me to not spend money at all and complain about it on the internet.
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Reply #47 on: April 23, 2015, 06:37:34 PM

Yeah, GW's entire approach to PC games is retarded.  Let's ignore the fact hey could probably make a ton of money just making a Warhammer game that puts the rules straight to PC for a reasonable price.  If they want to be dicks, charge a subscritpion to play online (with access to all armies).

They could even go the F2P route.  Charge people to buy access to each army (it's codex basically), as well as special color schemes and other vanity shit.  Hell, even if they want to be real dicks they could charge people for individual units just like you were building your own at home (basically the MTGO approach).  And it would still be very profitable because at the end of the day, there are a lot of us who would like to get into table top gaming, but building, painting, and going out to some stink infested comic books store to play the same group of teens every weekend is not appealing to.  Or we just don't have the time.  The Internet fixes all that.  Including speeding up the games because all the rules are automated.

They have a ton of options, limited only by exactly how big of assholes they want to be, and yet they don't take any of them.

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
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Mandella
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Reply #48 on: April 23, 2015, 06:49:20 PM

I'm one of those guys who fell off the Total War bandwagon in large part because of the accelerated pace of the battles. It just stopped feeling natural to the era setting.

But Warhammer might actually feel *more* natural with such speeds, given the high tech mobility and firepower...

Going to have to watch this one.
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Reply #49 on: April 23, 2015, 08:49:26 PM

Don't buy in. TW games have gone off the rails. Even reskins will go wrong until 14 patches deep.

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jakonovski
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Reply #50 on: April 24, 2015, 07:50:41 AM

The fun part is that on the tabletop side the Warhammer world  in the latest expansion. Naturally, GW does not release any information about any upcoming Warhammer releases.



March
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Reply #51 on: April 24, 2015, 11:46:50 AM

Yeah, GW's entire approach to PC games is retarded.  Let's ignore the fact hey could probably make a ton of money just making a Warhammer game that puts the rules straight to PC for a reasonable price.  If they want to be dicks, charge a subscritpion to play online (with access to all armies).

They could even go the F2P route.  Charge people to buy access to each army (it's codex basically), as well as special color schemes and other vanity shit.  Hell, even if they want to be real dicks they could charge people for individual units just like you were building your own at home (basically the MTGO approach).  And it would still be very profitable because at the end of the day, there are a lot of us who would like to get into table top gaming, but building, painting, and going out to some stink infested comic books store to play the same group of teens every weekend is not appealing to.  Or we just don't have the time.  The Internet fixes all that.  Including speeding up the games because all the rules are automated.

They have a ton of options, limited only by exactly how big of assholes they want to be, and yet they don't take any of them.
Yeah... I could see this as something along the lines of Marvel Heroes... F2P, but you buy various Army starter kits.  After that, you could buy with in-game or real currency additional units, options for units, different uniforms and different dyes.  Customizing and optimizing your army would be half the fun (maybe more).  The whole points-based-army-building would be a huge meta-game in itself.  Content could be PvE with a points cap and achievements for completing with fewer points... PvP a given... fixed maps, random maps, map creator... I mean, the chargeable events are almost limitless.  And, it's not like there's any doubt over whether people will spend lots of money on customization in a video game.  Baffling.

Obviously I don't have access to their accounting books and business plan, but it just seems unfathomable that there isn't more money in pixelating their IP and making their game way more accessible than anything else they could possibly imagine with their current approach.  I won't say that it would make their Tabletop grow, it might, but it would more likely take some of that business; take some of that business and plant it as a seed for the Money Tree that would grow out of it.
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Reply #52 on: April 24, 2015, 12:25:52 PM

It's a variant of the Innovator's Dilemma. GW is too afraid of digital miniatures cannibilizing their physical miniature sales. WotC has the same issue with digital MtG.
Malakili
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Reply #53 on: April 24, 2015, 12:28:06 PM

They'd have to go the Magic Online route and essentially charge the same amount for things and just do a digital full conversion.  It would probably do fairly well if it was well made. 
HaemishM
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Reply #54 on: April 24, 2015, 02:33:00 PM

GW is and always has been fucking idiots when it comes to digital properties. I was amazed at how well they did their digital codexes on this last edition of 40k. The iPad version of the Chaos Codex was a really well done, searchable type of experience. I think they went back and fucked it up in later codexes.

They've always restricted their licensees in what could be done to restrict potential cannibalization of their physical market, because they do not understand digital and its potential for endless gouging. It was until they started losing money on their physical product gouging that they started to allow digital any sort of leeway. I'm still amazed that Blood Bowl is as faithful a translation as it is (despite Cyanide's shitty shit shit UI). It appears that they are going the way of "gouge for multiple DLC teams" in the new Blood Bowl 2.

jakonovski
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Reply #55 on: April 24, 2015, 02:59:03 PM

Blood Bowl was their most popular side game, so they discontinued it. Which is why it can exist as a digital game.
angry.bob
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Reply #56 on: April 24, 2015, 07:46:24 PM

The fun part is that on the tabletop side the Warhammer world  in the latest expansion. Naturally, GW does not release any information about any upcoming Warhammer releases.

Yeah, I'm curious to see what happens there. I keep hearing rumors that they're squatting Lizardmen, and they're my second largest army.

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Reply #57 on: April 24, 2015, 10:14:54 PM

It's a variant of the Innovator's Dilemma. GW is too afraid of digital miniatures cannibilizing their physical miniature sales. WotC has the same issue with digital MtG.


GW is basically following the WotC model.  Concentrate on your physical product line, turn story-line related stuff into profit centers through novelizations, licensing, etc. and only go forward with digital products when it doesn't risk cannibalizing your core line at all.

If they did a Warhammer version of MODO, where everything costs the same as physical product and you could redeem a whole army or set for actual physical miniatures the same as what MODO does with card/redeeming sets, it actually helps to support your core physical product line. 


GW is and always has been fucking idiots when it comes to digital properties. I was amazed at how well they did their digital codexes on this last edition of 40k. The iPad version of the Chaos Codex was a really well done, searchable type of experience. I think they went back and fucked it up in later codexes.

They've always restricted their licensees in what could be done to restrict potential cannibalization of their physical market, because they do not understand digital and its potential for endless gouging. It was until they started losing money on their physical product gouging that they started to allow digital any sort of leeway. I'm still amazed that Blood Bowl is as faithful a translation as it is (despite Cyanide's shitty shit shit UI). It appears that they are going the way of "gouge for multiple DLC teams" in the new Blood Bowl 2.

Going all digital seems like a really terrible long-term idea when your physical product line is doing well over a long period of time.  What is the half life for a successful digital franchise?  Five years?  So beating a dead horse by year ten, if you are successful at launch?  Just think back 20 years to what the big video game franchises were, and where are they now.  Outside of Warcraft and a couple of Nintendo franchises that are kept around to bolster the sale of new systems, where are they?

You are also completely dependent on switching your entire core competency into software development, which no one in your company has experience with?  And if you hire it out you are liable to all the problems of software development plus getting fucked by publishers/distributors, who you now have no history with?

One bad title, or one mediocre selling big budget title, is enough to sink even venerated and successful game companies.  It makes so much more sense to keep your core going as long as it works and collect money when you can from licensing.  A bad digital product is too bad, but you got paid already and it doesn't hurt your overall brand too much.

Also, there is a huge difference in the physical model, where the game developer is the big dog dealing with small dogs (shops, distributors) versus being a software developer, where you are a fucking minnow in danger of one of the large behemoths randomly swatting you or swallowing you whole. 

The only straight digital path that might make sense to me is if GW got into a partnership with someone like Valve, who takes care of the heavy lifting on the digital end, and GW keeps going with the game design/lore end to keep the sweet merchandise, books, etc. money rolling in...  basically like Dota 2.  Anything else sounds like in five years EA would be buying the company for scrap and IP to give to a third rate studio to crank out some shitty quick selling games to make a quick buck before the IP goes dormant and someone starts a Kickstarter for the spiritual successor to Warhammer.  Ohhhhh, I see.

If your physical product line is disappearing or looks to be obsolete?  Shit yah, make the jump...  or sell out to a big studio/publisher and walk away.  If your physical line is still going strong?  Ughhh, no.
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Reply #58 on: April 25, 2015, 02:08:04 AM

GW's physical sales and stock price has been in a steady decline for the last year.

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Reply #59 on: April 25, 2015, 08:59:20 AM

Their stuff has always been at the high end of the price curve for miniatures, but the last couple of years have jaw-dropping. It's to the point now that even adults with plenty of disposable income are balking at the prices.  Guys at the local game shop who've dropped $500 a month for a decade are spending that money on other systems. For some of this stuff it's just below the cost of Forge World equivalents. $25.00 for a single plastic man-sized miniature?  I could swallow that for metal since the earlier you buy a metal model at release the better a casting you're likely to get, but with plastic it doesn't matter. They're still using the same mold for Falcon Grav tanks that they used when they released them.

Not to mention chinese recasters are producing knockoffs that are atually better quality than the originals for a fraction of the price. GW is the Marvel of gaming. If they're smart they'll start farming out their IP to competent people and make most of their money that way.  
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 11:40:36 AM by angry.bob »

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Reply #60 on: April 25, 2015, 09:34:18 AM

It's like a newspaper thinking they'll save their business by staying print only.

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Reply #61 on: April 25, 2015, 12:02:43 PM

Pretty much.  I'm not convinced going digital will canibalize their physical sales very much at all.  The nature of the game makes it a very small crowd that actually spends much money on their physical shit, on top of the fact it's prohibitively expensive.  A digital version (with more sensible pricing) would open up the game to a much much broader base of people who aren't playing it now for a reason.  I have a feeling the people doing the physical stuff will continue to do so.  It would only expand their profit base, not shrink it (imo).

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
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Reply #62 on: April 25, 2015, 12:05:33 PM

It's like a newspaper thinking they'll save their business by staying print only.

That's an apt analogy. And just like the newspapers, they will get slowly beaten to death for their efforts, while the early adopters of the new way will grab market share they can't obtain later.

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NowhereMan
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Reply #63 on: April 25, 2015, 01:58:38 PM

You guys realise you're talking about a company whose digital publishing arm puts out audio books for the same price as hardback novels and digital novellas for near the same price as a regular paperback right? If they did digital versions you'd be able to put together your online spacemans army for roughly the same price as the current physical offerings because otherwise you'd be threatening their physical sales.

Also they would issue super special, one-off never to be remade models for $35 that they'd sneak into a regular $10 army pack a year later.

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angry.bob
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Reply #64 on: April 25, 2015, 03:12:34 PM

You guys realise you're talking about a company whose digital publishing arm puts out audio books for the same price as hardback novels and digital novellas for near the same price as a regular paperback right? If they did digital versions you'd be able to put together your online spacemans army for roughly the same price as the current physical offerings because otherwise you'd be threatening their physical sales.

Also they would issue super special, one-off never to be remade models for $35 that they'd sneak into a regular $10 army pack a year later.

Don't even get me started on the length's they'll go to "protect" themselves. You'd think the moderate backfire from their lawsuit against Chapterhouse would have taught them something, but it doesn't appear so.

But their digital pricing policy means it would make even more sense to them to produce online versions. Once the generic marine/ork/eldar models and skin variants for all the different chapters/clans/craftworlds/etc are done it's 100% profit. That's most of the reason they've been trying to kill online retailers for years, to force people online to buy direct from them and keep the middleman's profit.

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Rendakor
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Reply #65 on: April 25, 2015, 05:25:34 PM

You guys realise you're talking about a company whose digital publishing arm puts out audio books for the same price as hardback novels and digital novellas for near the same price as a regular paperback right? If they did digital versions you'd be able to put together your online spacemans army for roughly the same price as the current physical offerings because otherwise you'd be threatening their physical sales.

Also they would issue super special, one-off never to be remade models for $35 that they'd sneak into a regular $10 army pack a year later.
The thing is, I would pay retail-physical-model price for a digital army in a perfect replication of tabletop Warhammer and I'm probably not alone. Assembling and painting models is incredibly tedious, and having to drive a half hour or more just to get a game in with some random who hasn't shower in a week isn't a great experience. It's the same reason I got into Hex instead of ever taking the plunge back into paper MtG.

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Reply #66 on: April 25, 2015, 07:41:46 PM

GW's physical sales and stock price has been in a steady decline for the last year.

It's been going on longer than that. When I quit playing 15 odd years ago they had started putting out army lists of 1500 points rather than the 6-8000 points that they had before. And the rumour mill was rife about how their sales were collapsing as people were looking at the prices back then and balking. I remember when a tenner could get you a couple of boxes of mixed grunt minitures so you and your mates could club together for a couple of boxes and then split the minis up. I'm terrified to look at what the miniture prices are now.

And GW were well known for creating codexs and then fucking the balance up by releasing new stuff in white Dwarf that was THE MINIATURE of the month that was so OP that you had to buy Next Months mini to get back in the game. And the rules changes in the mag as well...

There were a few good GW inspired games that came out though. SSI had a few, and there was at least one total war style game that was actually damn good, Warhammer Dark Omen. I played the hell out of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Games_Workshop_video_games

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Reply #67 on: April 25, 2015, 09:14:05 PM

Yeah, I played that a lot too.  17 years ago. 
angry.bob
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Reply #68 on: April 25, 2015, 09:29:40 PM

I'm terrified to look at what the miniture prices are now.

A Rhino is $40
a vanilla 10 marine tactical squad is $40

So $80 for one of the two mandatory troop choices. You can try skipping the Rhino and footslogging it, but anyplace with even a moderately competitive environment and they'll never make it to an objective.

So, about $100 for one HQ and two troop choices.

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Reply #69 on: April 27, 2015, 12:14:36 AM

I'm gobsmacked.

I'm sure the $40 models are all powerful plastic too. This reminds me of when they went to "white metal!", a tin alloy rather than their lead based alloy, and told everyone that They had to raise their prices because tin was more expensive than lead, and then shut up when people pointed out that Tin was in in fact cheaper than lead...

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