Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
July 19, 2019, 06:09:00 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
Donate! | Shop: Amazon
*
Home Help Search Login Register
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  General Discussion  |  Topic: Another plane missing 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Another plane missing  (Read 26819 times)
Abagadro
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11797

Possibly the only user with more posts in the Den than PC/Console Gaming.


Reply #105 on: March 26, 2015, 07:29:51 PM

The pilot didn't technically even crash this one. The autopilot did.  Why an autopilot can be programmed to fly at 96 feet when the deck is 6000 feet is a bit of a mystery to me. He could still have crashed it, but just telling the plane "down" and then letting it happen seems odd and a bit of a way to dissociate himself from the act.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10241


Reply #106 on: March 26, 2015, 07:53:34 PM

I think that's the part that has a lot of people scratching their head. Why not just nosedive it if the plan was to suicide/murder?
01101010
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10810

You call it an accident. I call it justice.


Reply #107 on: March 26, 2015, 09:55:36 PM

I think that's the part that has a lot of people scratching their head. Why not just nosedive it if the plan was to suicide/murder?

Well you can try and run the insurance/benefits angle doing it the way it evolved. He just didn't cover his tracks.

"I want to watch it all burn in an orgy of smashed Coke machines and weasel rape." - HaemishM
Malakili
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10590


Reply #108 on: March 26, 2015, 11:29:56 PM

If the guy was unstable then trying to figure out the logic of it isn't going to get us anywhere.
Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10241


Reply #109 on: March 27, 2015, 06:56:10 AM

01101010
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10810

You call it an accident. I call it justice.


Reply #110 on: March 27, 2015, 07:18:42 AM


At this point, I would wager a guess that at least 50% or people in first world country would have depression meds in their dwelling.

Just saying.

"I want to watch it all burn in an orgy of smashed Coke machines and weasel rape." - HaemishM
Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 26940

Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #111 on: March 27, 2015, 07:53:37 AM


Welp, 90% of F13 is full of plane-crashing psychopaths. We're through the looking glass now.

CPA, Sports blogger, Mount and Blade enthusiast
Braves by the Numbers, my sports blog
Malakili
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10590


Reply #112 on: March 27, 2015, 09:34:27 AM


At this point, I would wager a guess that at least 50% or people in first world country would have depression meds in their dwelling.

Just saying.

Recent reports are also saying they found a torn up note from his doctor for time off work. 
01101010
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10810

You call it an accident. I call it justice.


Reply #113 on: March 27, 2015, 09:49:13 AM


At this point, I would wager a guess that at least 50% or people in first world country would have depression meds in their dwelling.

Just saying.

Recent reports are also saying they found a torn up note from his doctor for time off work. 


Unless he was 302'd (or whatever they have over in Germany as an involuntary committal), all this really doesn't matter and will do more harm than good in the long run - first and foremost, what jobs will it become mandatory that you hand over all of your medical information? Doctor-patient confidentiality is already being stripped away and this will just take another huge swipe out of it. But this is coming at this from an American perspective which doesn't really apply here in all aspects.

"I want to watch it all burn in an orgy of smashed Coke machines and weasel rape." - HaemishM
Malakili
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10590


Reply #114 on: March 27, 2015, 10:37:37 AM

All I'm saying is that the guy seems to have been suicidal and probably not fit for working this job where he is responsible for the lives of a plane full of people.  It doesn't mean all depressed people are suicidal or incapable of doing their jobs even if they are grappling with that.
Jeff Kelly
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5884

I'm an apathetic, hedonistic, utilitarian, nihilistic existentialist.


Reply #115 on: March 27, 2015, 12:10:28 PM

If your conclusion is already foregone then you can fit every little piece of info into your own narrative so that it fits your preconceived notion. If I go through everything any person owns and said/wrote down then I can probably construct any kind of narrative from him/her being an upstanding member of society to him/her being a suicidal psychopath.

All we really know is:

- the captain was locked out of the cockpit
- the co-pilot was unwilling or unable to open the door
- it seems like the co-pilot was alive until the crash (breathing noises)
- it seems like the co-pilot was operating the autopilot controls
- it seems like the co-pilot deliberately programmed the autopilot to descend
- the co-pilot may have been depressed/undergoing treatment for depression
- all of those things may be correlated

Everything else is conjecture at this point and an expert can probably come up with at least another scenario in which we have the same outcome without the co-pilot commiting a murder-suicide.
Jeff Kelly
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5884

I'm an apathetic, hedonistic, utilitarian, nihilistic existentialist.


Reply #116 on: March 27, 2015, 12:19:47 PM

Focusing on his mental health is dangerous btw.

All it will achieve is that in the future even more people will hide any sort of mental health problem for fear of losing thier career and livelyhood. They may even forego to get any help for fear of leaving a paper trail that might damn them in the future. Even though they are in reality able to do their job.

If I had to guess then I'd suppose that the co-pilot hid his problems exactly because of this. According to German news sources flying was his passion and he had dedicated his life to it. He's 27 and probably still in a shitload of debt (pilot training for a commercial license will cost you upwards of $120,000) and may risk losing his livelyhood. After this incident psych evaluations will become mandatory and anyone even remotely suspected of being mentally unstable will lose his job - for liability reasons alone. This will mean that a lot more people with untreated and possibly dangerous mental health problems will slip through the cracks as more people hide that and won't even seek treatment.
Malakili
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10590


Reply #117 on: March 27, 2015, 12:25:42 PM

I don't disagree in principle.   Sometimes shit like this is just going to happen no matter what regulations are in place.

But if we're looking to explain what happened certainly it isn't irrelevant, and people want to understand why - especially the people who lost family and friends.
IainC
Developers
Posts: 6394

Wargaming.net


WWW
Reply #118 on: March 27, 2015, 12:43:54 PM

The rule in the US (and adopted voluntarily by some European carriers) is that no-one is ever alone in the cockpit. If one of the pilots needs to leave for any reason then they are replaced by one of the crew until they return. That seems like a good rule to implement - not only for situations like this where there is a bad actor in play but also in case of unexpected incapacitation or other emergency.

- And in stranger Iains, even Death may die -

SerialForeigner Photography.
Malakili
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10590


Reply #119 on: March 27, 2015, 12:52:15 PM

I understand German airlines are already moving to implement that idea.  It's probably the best you can do.
Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10241


Reply #120 on: March 27, 2015, 02:12:35 PM

I think they have to at least try to explain why he did what he did in this situation, but I agree that this is likely to stigmatize mental illness even further in dangerous ways.
pants
Terracotta Army
Posts: 576


Reply #121 on: March 27, 2015, 02:39:22 PM

calapine
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6279

Solely responsible for the thread on "The Condom Wall."


Reply #122 on: March 27, 2015, 03:56:23 PM

The pilot didn't technically even crash this one. The autopilot did.  Why an autopilot can be programmed to fly at 96 feet when the deck is 6000 feet is a bit of a mystery to me. He could still have crashed it, but just telling the plane "down" and then letting it happen seems odd and a bit of a way to dissociate himself from the act.

The autopilot feature he used is just "dumb" dial to set a desired height, not any route planing feature.

Aside from that at some point the E(GPWS)* must have (and has, according to news) triggered. Problem it is only a warning system ("TERRAIN" "PULL UP") and even if the autopilot disconnects at this point the plane is already in a descent and requires pilot input to avoid disaster.

It's actually a bit paradox (at least for Airbus planes with their hard protections): In an approaching over-speed situation the flight envelope protection will command nose-up to protect the plane, but there is nothing in place yet to do the same in case of approaching ground.

Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic!
calapine
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6279

Solely responsible for the thread on "The Condom Wall."


Reply #123 on: March 27, 2015, 04:02:33 PM


Local boulevard media plastered the co-pilots face (uncensored) on their frontpages. Only that the man in the picture wasn't actually the co-pilot but a totally innocent bystander. They just got the wrong person...ooops. Fuckers.


Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic!
calapine
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6279

Solely responsible for the thread on "The Condom Wall."


Reply #124 on: October 31, 2015, 08:41:29 AM

Crash: Metrojet A321 over Sinai on Oct 31st 2015, disappeared from radar in climb over Sinai


Quote from: The Aviation Herald
A Metrojet (former Kogalym Avia, Kolavia) Airbus A321-200, registration EI-ETJ performing flight 7K-9268 from Sharm el Sheikh (Egypt) to St. Petersburg (Russia) with 217 passengers and 7 crew, was climbing through FL307 out of Sharm el Sheikh over the Sinai Peninsula (Position N30.16 E34.17, 60nm south of Al-Arish) at 04:12Z when the aircraft disappeared from radar. Wreckage of the aircraft was later located in mountaineous terrain about 20nm south of Al-Arish (Sinai, Egypt).

Egyptian sources were reporting the aircraft was believed crashed, a search for the aircraft in Sinai was ongoing.

Egypt's Prime Minister confirmed the aircraft has crashed.

Egyptian Authorities reported first parts of the wreckage have been located. There is no evidence of hostile/missile activity around the flight path of the aircraft. 50 ambulances have been dispatched to the crash site, any injured would be flown to Cairo with helicopters. The flight data recorder has been recovered.

Reuters quotes an Egyptian Offical involved in the ongoing rescue operation, that the aircraft has broken up in two major parts, a small part being the tail plane caught fire, the other larger part impacted a rock. Bodies still belted to their seats are around the crash site, around 100 bodies have so far been recovered, the rest still inside the wreckage, however, there are also voices heard from inside a part of the wreckage. 50 ambulances have been dispatched to the crash site.

Russia's Rosaviatsia (Civil Aviation Authority) reported the A321 of Kogalym Avia carried 217 passengers and 7 crew.

Sources in Sharm el Sheik reported the captain of the flight reported technical problems and requested to return to Sharm el Sheikh.

A ground observer reported a large number of helicopters are departing their Cairo airbase in the direction of Sinai.

Egyptian media report with reference to an Egyptian government meeting that the crew reported engine (V2533) trouble, subsequently lost control of the aircraft and communication ceased.

Airbus confirmed the loss of EI-ETJ, that disappeared from radar while flying overhead Sinai, with 217 passengers and 7 crew. The aircraft, built in 1997 and powered by IAE V2533 engines, had accumulated approximately 55,772 flight hours in 21,175 flight cycles.

According to flightplan the aircraft was tracking between waypoints TBA (Egypt: N29.362420 E34.475080) and PASOS (Cyprus FIR, N32.216667 E33.100000) when it disappeared. Eurocontrol's Air Flow Traffic Management (CFMU) issued a note to all operators along the route TBA-PASOS and vice versa shortly after the aircraft disappeared, that due to technical problems all flights will be tactically rerouted via MELDO until further notice. The notice was removed a couple of minutes later.

Aerial overview of the area at the time of crash, aircraft position over Gulf of Suez viewing north from southern entry into Suez Canal towards Al-Arish and Mediterranean Sea at the top:




Source



Edit:
224 dead. The flight data recorder has been found.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 09:19:44 AM by calapine »

Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic!
IainC
Developers
Posts: 6394

Wargaming.net


WWW
Reply #125 on: November 01, 2015, 10:00:05 AM

ISIS claimed responsibility but most people aren't giving that too much credence as they don't have anything that can hit a target at 11,000m altitude. The MANPADS they are known to possess, have an effective ceiling of less than half of that. Unless they have a launcher system like the BUK (which no-one thinks that they do), they don't have the capability.

- And in stranger Iains, even Death may die -

SerialForeigner Photography.
penfold
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1014


Reply #126 on: November 02, 2015, 10:19:08 AM

If this is the plane, it still raises the question of why they were filming it on a phone just before something happened.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3297871/Russian-passenger-plane-220-tourists-board-missing-Egypt-Fears-aircraft-crashed-Sinai-desert.html

(The Mail link it was at the top of google.)
Merusk
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27447

Badge Whore


Reply #127 on: November 02, 2015, 12:05:08 PM

Given that it's being investigated by Egypt and Russia and Egypt has been leaning towards Russia since the revolution, I don't believe they'd ever announce it was a bomb even if it was.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
IainC
Developers
Posts: 6394

Wargaming.net


WWW
Reply #128 on: November 02, 2015, 02:02:27 PM

Given that it's being investigated by Egypt and Russia and Egypt has been leaning towards Russia since the revolution, I don't believe they'd ever announce it was a bomb even if it was.

I really don't know what to think of all of this. My initial feeling was that Russia would play up the possible terrorism angle as a cassus belli for extending their operations in the area.  However they've pretty much shot that theory down hard. If it wasn't terrorism then something happened to a modern, ubiquitous and apparently flightworthy aircraft that made it explode in mid-air before anyone on board could send a distress call. If I were the Russians, I'd be far happier with the idea that bad people had blown up my aircraft than the possibility that carriers under my flag were flying shitboxes that fall apart randomly.

- And in stranger Iains, even Death may die -

SerialForeigner Photography.
Goumindong
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3929


Reply #129 on: November 02, 2015, 02:48:31 PM

ISIS claimed responsibility but most people aren't giving that too much credence as they don't have anything that can hit a target at 11,000m altitude. The MANPADS they are known to possess, have an effective ceiling of less than half of that. Unless they have a launcher system like the BUK (which no-one thinks that they do), they don't have the capability.

Could have been a bomb and translation errors turning "took down" into "shot down"
calapine
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6279

Solely responsible for the thread on "The Condom Wall."


Reply #130 on: November 07, 2015, 01:57:37 AM

More hints towards an explosion as cause for the crash, coming from the black box data.

This is an article from TV channel France 2 which cites Agence France-Presse as source, which itself quotes an unnamed French investigator.

Quote
Tout est normal, absolument normal pendant le vol, et brutalement plus rien", a déclaré cette source. "Cela va dans le sens de la soudaineté, du caractère immédiat, de l'événement"

Cette source a par ailleurs souligné que, sur les photos, certains débris apparaissent criblés d'impacts allant de l'intérieur vers l'extérieur de l'appareil, "ce qui accrédite plutôt la thèse d'un engin pyrotechnique".

My rough translation: Everything is normal, until suddenly data (or voice recording?) is interrupted . This indicates a sudden event. Appraisal of debris pictures shows impact damage coming from the inside, which would be in line with a bomb explosion.

http://www.francetvinfo.fr/monde/afrique/crash-d-un-avion-russe-en-egypte/info-france-2-crash-de-l-avion-russe-dans-le-sinai-il-y-a-bien-eu-une-explosion-en-vol-et-elle-n-est-pas-d-origine-accidentelle-indiquent-les-boites-noires_1162873.html


Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic!
IainC
Developers
Posts: 6394

Wargaming.net


WWW
Reply #131 on: November 07, 2015, 08:03:18 AM

Russia seems to have accepted that there was a bomb despite their earlier statements that they didn't believe that terrorism was responsible. all Russian flights to Egyptian airports are cancelled on Putin's orders.

- And in stranger Iains, even Death may die -

SerialForeigner Photography.
Chimpy
Terracotta Army
Posts: 9164


WWW
Reply #132 on: November 07, 2015, 09:22:53 AM

Cargo not coming through with passengers has been the weak link in the "stop bombs on planes" strategies since Lockerbie which I believe was the last (only?) bomb to have been put on a plane as passenger luggage.

'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
penfold
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1014


Reply #133 on: November 08, 2015, 09:54:03 AM

Some bloke skipped security at Sharm Airport for £20 after the incident.

Security has been in the hands of minimum wage workers everywhere in the world forever, i remember Marcinko ranting on about it in his Red Cell days.
NowhereMan
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6432


Reply #134 on: November 08, 2015, 12:45:47 PM

I remember the final security guy in Egypt refusing to let me through the check unless I gave him the half finished packet of cashew nuts I was snacking on. Egyptian airport security is really not that great. Also UK holidaymakers are all stranded in Egypt about the same time Sisi is coming to visit the UK  awesome, for real

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
Sir T
Terracotta Army
Posts: 12455


Reply #135 on: August 03, 2016, 07:53:34 AM

Emirates EK521, a Boeing 777, Dubai

Everyone got off before the fire.


Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
Hawkbit
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5173

Like a Klansman in the ghetto.


Reply #136 on: August 03, 2016, 09:19:36 AM

Removing stupid comment because a firefighter was killed.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 12:14:06 AM by Hawkbit »
Count Nerfedalot
Terracotta Army
Posts: 867


Reply #137 on: August 04, 2016, 10:16:51 AM

I've lost track and I'm lazy. How many 777's have caught fire in the past 12 months now? And why isn't Boeing's stock in the toilet, or is it?

Yes, I know I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
Chimpy
Terracotta Army
Posts: 9164


WWW
Reply #138 on: August 04, 2016, 11:48:06 AM

I've lost track and I'm lazy. How many 777's have caught fire in the past 12 months now? And why isn't Boeing's stock in the toilet, or is it?

This would be the only one.

The plane that had the battery fire issue was the 787 and that was resolved a couple years ago.

'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 21345


Reply #139 on: August 04, 2016, 11:57:25 AM

I've lost track and I'm lazy. How many 777's have caught fire in the past 12 months now? And why isn't Boeing's stock in the toilet, or is it?
This would be the only one.

The plane that had the battery fire issue was the 787 and that was resolved a couple years ago.
It's the 4th in the last 12 months.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_777#Incidents_and_accidents
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 Go Up Print 
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  General Discussion  |  Topic: Another plane missing  
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC