Godus - train wreck in progress

[DraconianOne]

Carpet and Powermonger and Syndicate and even Black and White  I actually liked because, you know, I didn't follow what they were GOING to be and instead played them for what they were.

Molyneux was only a producer on Syndicate - he had nothing to do with the design or programming. I like to think that's why it was one of Bullfrog's better games.

[Lantyssa]

But Dungeon Keeper broke my heart.

I'm so glad I didn't know, because like Syndicate, I loved DK and DK2 for what they were.

But then I didn't even realize he was involved with Bullfrog, so I am blessed in my ignorance.

[Ironwood]

Seriously ?

[Sky]

Maybe she's bullfrogging you.

[Lantyssa]

I didn't follow gaming news prior to college, and even to a large extent before reading f13.  I just found games with cool boxes at the brick and mortar or on a BBC.  I had a couple of companies I'd browse a catalog for, like Interplay, but that was about it.

So there's a reasonable chance of me not knowing any specifics pre-2004.  (Wasteland and Wizardry devs probably being the biggest exceptions.)

[Rasix]

I really didn't know who the fuck Molyneux was until Fable.  My entire awareness of him has been as a lying liar that lies.  I still liked Fable and Fable 2... ><

I really didn't know anything specific about developers until Ultima Online, where that Designer Dragon chap kept fucking with my shit.

[Sky]

I didn't know much specifically about developers until Ultima Online, when people kept fucking with Designer Dragon's shit.

[Ironwood]

Hmmm.  It must be a British thing then.  Bullfrog WAS PM and he was everywhere over here.  Couldn't get away from the fucker.

[Lantyssa]

I guess so.  But then Falc was surprised I'd never heard of Elite prior to the crowdfunding, too.

[Yegolev]

I believe the reason we can't do a Dungeon Keeper properly at this time is because of the old saying that you have to be smarter than a dog to teach it any tricks.

[Sir T]

I kinda knew who Molyneaux was prior to buying Black and white, but that was just from reading the odd computer gaming mag and not having any internet at all. But the reviews I saw on Black and white were talking about the actual game as on the shelf, so I loved it for what it was, not for promises made 3 to 1 years ago that were made before I was reading computer gaming mags.

[Ironwood]

I guess so.  But then Falc was surprised I'd never heard of Elite prior to the crowdfunding, too.

So was I.  Not hearing of Elite is something unthinkable over here if you have any interest in games at all.

[Rasix]

My first home computer had a Pentium 100.   I was mostly a Nintendo gamer until around midway through high school.  A lot of nostalgic shit you guys go on about, I never did experience.

[Rendakor]

Same here. Aside from MUDs, the only PC games I played when I was young were Blizzard titles (D2 and SC1). I was mostly a console gamer through the NES/SNES/PSX days.

[Samprimary]

i had no idea who mollynoo was back when i first got to play black and white. and honestly the tutorial section was torturous so i never got very far

[Sophismata]

I loved Populous 3, as well as Dungeon Keeper & Syndicate (in fact, most Bullfrog games). I didn't know who PM was until magazine articles for B&W.

[eldaec]

Populous 3 was good.  Molyneux wasn't involved.

Syndicate was good. Molyneux was just a name on the credits for PR.

Dungeon Keeper was kind of OK but not that great. Molyneux was the designer.

Dungeon Keeper 2 was better, they just went ahead and fixed the problems in DK. Molyneux was not involved.

To the best of my knowledge Molyneux has led exactly 2 worthwhile projects, Populous and Theme park.

[Paelos]

If you literally know nothing about Fable:The Lost Chapters other than the fact it's just a game, and you play it, it's a fun game.

If you knew all the promises and nonsense, it's a turd. Expectations gap.

[jakonovski]

Ha, looks like Tim Schafer has joined the Molyneux defense force. How ironic.

[Rendakor]

I never knew he made Theme Park.

[Fabricated]

Ha, looks like Tim Schafer has joined the Molyneux defense force. How ironic.

Tim Schafer has made a career of over promising and under-delivering too, but mostly to management.

[Maven]

Game Developers stick to their own, as if their unique struggles shield them from poor decision-making, like choosing to enter game development.

Then again, it is passion making that choice, right? I'm a bit bitter about the image of games and the reality.

[K9]

I had to check but PM is credited in Theme Hospital! As moral support....

[tmp]

"I'm not saying that developers like Peter and I shouldn't be responsible, and shouldn't be accountable to deadlines," Schafer added. "I'm just saying, the reaction to recent events and the tone of that reaction is really way out of proportion to the seriousness of the events themselves."

Gee, I wonder what it would then take to become in proportion to ask a man if he's a pathological liar. When over a decade long track record and notoriety to the point everyone who knows your name knows you for telling shit on the levels no one else can really boast... apparently isn't enough, yet.

Another one to fall for the "developers like Peter and I" idiocy. No, Schafer. You messed one up kickstarter. You're nowhere near PM's level of "developing".

[Malakili]

I kind of got a "it's just video games, stop taking this so seriously" vibe from it.  Like, you can ask a politician the question but not a video game designer.  But video games are big business these days, it certainly seems fair to make developers put on their big boy pants for an interview.

[Lantyssa]

CEOs don't like being questioned either.

[Ruvaldt]

To the best of my knowledge Molyneux has led exactly 2 worthwhile projects, Populous and Theme park.

I would add Powermonger to that list.  Still, that's only three games, and they're all more than twenty years old.

[MahrinSkel]

Game Developers stick to their own, as if their unique struggles shield them from poor decision-making, like choosing to enter game development.

Then again, it is passion making that choice, right? I'm a bit bitter about the image of games and the reality.

Choosing to be a video game designer is a sign of deep mental dysfunction, no rational person would do it. Staying one more than a couple of years is proof that you're not too bright. Actually interacting with the public while a known recidivist game designer is obvious grounds for institutionalization.

--Dave (they're coming to take me away, hah hah!)

[HaemishM]

But video games are big business these days, it certainly seems fair to make developers put on their big boy pants for an interview.

I don't think video game developers HAVE big boy pants.

[Jeff Kelly]

I'm a software developer/project manager by trade and time and time again that kind of "development is hard, man!" talk makes me angry. One of the most prevailing myths of development and one of the most prevalent explanations for all of the game dev bullshit is that 'development is hard and design is unplannable and full of unknowns so you can't even plan, great art takes time and failure..'.

This is quite frankly complete horseshit. Yes, it's how the video game business has always operated and we're now in the third generation of developers who have experienced and taken part in that horseshit. Yes, they've conditioned their customers and the people reporting on them for long enough that they even believe that horseshit.

It's still horseshit, though.

Especially since most developers fail at even the simplest tasks. Take Molyneux. 22 cans consists (at this time) of around 25 people. He stated that the average wage of his employees is around 30,000 pounds. Given the lofty promises he made I'd assume that the whole staff would need to work on Godus for any chance to be able to deliver half of it. So assuming his 30,000 pound estimate is correct he's already spending 750,000 pounds per year just for wages and salaries. Add to that standard operational costs, any employee benefits that are not reflected in the wage directly (health plans, social security, 401(k) benefits), rent for the office space and expenses we're looking more at 1 million or more. This doesn't even include expenses for the project itself (licensing costs for tools and packages, external costs), investments (computers, office furniture, company cars etc.) or legal fees and marketing.

So back of the envelope we're looking more at 1,5 million per anno just to keep the company going with the current pool of employees just to be able to work on one project. PM wanted less than 400,000 with no hint as to how he wanted to secure additional funds. For a multi year project.

[Jeff Kelly]

Compare that to the Obsidian kickstarter for Pillars of Eternity. It had a rather sane initial pitch with a definition of a core game and the budget required to do it. Everything more lofty than that was covered by strech goals and the Pillars guys entered the kickstarter with the assurance that Obsidian would match the kickstarter sum and that the kickstarter itself was a way to gauge interest and prove to management brass that the project would be worthwile to fund.

They now have funds that can conceivably cover the scope and time frame of the project, they seem to be on schedule (well at least as on schedule as a SW project can be) and everything not covered by the initial round of funding can probably be made back with sales.

The end result might still suck but at least they'll have a finished project before time and money run out.

[tmp]

So back of the envelope we're looking more at 1,5 million per anno just to keep the company going with the current pool of employees just to be able to work on one project. PM wanted less than 400,000 with no hint as to how he wanted to secure additional funds. For a multi year project.

Perhaps he was only securing the funds for his own salary

[HaemishM]

I think he did say somewhere in there that he put up some of his own money (Molyneux that is) and then of course they got money from the publisher for the mobile version.

[Teleku]

I guess so.  But then Falc was surprised I'd never heard of Elite prior to the crowdfunding, too.

Same with me.  First I'd heard of PM was Black and White (and I played a number of Bullfrog games).  And first I ever heard of Elite was from everybody here going off about the remake.  At the tender young age of 31, I am perhaps not in the same age range as some of our forum members.

[Ingmar]

I guess so.  But then Falc was surprised I'd never heard of Elite prior to the crowdfunding, too.

Same with me.  First I'd heard of PM was Black and White (and I played a number of Bullfrog games).  And first I ever heard of Elite was from everybody here going off about the remake.  At the tender young age of 31, I am perhaps not in the same age range as some of our forum members.

Elite is more a US/UK difference than an age one. I'm plenty old enough to have been in on Elite but it just wasn't real big here, not like over there.