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Author Topic: Overwatch  (Read 235203 times)
Venkman
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Reply #525 on: June 09, 2016, 04:46:03 PM


We need to know our invested time is worth it. Sometimes all we need is for someone to tell us how awesome we are. Other times a little bar chart will do just fine.
I played about a bazillionty hours of Quake 3, Counter Strike and Team Fortress ~15 years ago without it ever even occurring to me that there should be some kind of cross-session progression.
Back in my day we addictively played the shit out of things without any affirmation  Ohhhhh, I see.
Malakili
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Reply #526 on: June 09, 2016, 05:19:36 PM

Yeah. That's kind of the point right? I mean, if the argument is "you need this stuff for people to play games long term" then all those enormously popular games that didn't have any semblance of progression are evidence against that argument.

Kail
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Reply #527 on: June 09, 2016, 06:32:09 PM

Yeah. That's kind of the point right? I mean, if the argument is "you need this stuff for people to play games long term" then all those enormously popular games that didn't have any semblance of progression are evidence against that argument.

Well, to be fair, they're all decade old titles.  TF2 and Counterstrike both have loot based progression systems nowadays, and Quake 3 is dead.  The market changes and if people want levels and loot (and a lot of them do) then you're going to have fewer sales if your competition is offering it and you're not.  

The specific way progression is implemented in Overwatch is pretty terrible, but I can see why they felt they had to stick something - anything - in there to keep the mice pushing the lever.

I really dislike it when games are constantly being tweaked. Let players find solutions except when things are really busted.

Yeah, this is kind of my new pet peeve.  Nothing like coming back to a decade old game and realizing that the game you left isn't there anymore.  Not because the community left or the market changed, but because every time a character's win rate nudged above 55% the devs retreated in to the war room and started napalming everything until the entire game has been re-written several time in a few years.  And as much as I want to blame the devs, it often seems to be what the playerbase wants.  Every time there's a non-balance patch for Heroes of the Storm, people flood the comments section with "OMG I can't believe you still haven't buffed Chen, worst champion in the game gg" "Oh, look, no Tracer nerfs, I guess Blizzard is TOTALLY OKAY with the fact that she can straight up KILL MY CHARACTER in this game" etc. etc.  It's like nobody wants to learn the game, they want the game to admit that it was wrong for letting them lose that one time.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 06:35:08 PM by Kail »
Merusk
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Reply #528 on: June 09, 2016, 10:39:23 PM

THat's exactly what players want. yes. Nobody plays games to lose. That's why Single Player is still a thing and some people don't buy games if they don't have a SP or collaborative mode. Being shown just how mediocre you are time and again in a MP game just makes you stop gaming after a while.

Overwatch is the first MP-competitive game I've bought and participated in in nearly a decade. Why? Because I know I suck, but it's FUN (and I can contribute as support) I've dabbled in a few MP-comp games but never spent money on them. Why bother being a sheep when you don't have the time or inclination to be a wolf. I can throw that money at the diminishing number of SP games out there instead and feel like a badass, even if I can't do speed runs and die 100x more than other players. I'll never know it.

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Falconeer
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Reply #529 on: June 10, 2016, 12:55:57 AM

Very few popular games "without any semblance of progression" exist to begin with now (which ones?), and they are mostly from a different era. To make a game now that does NOT have any semblance of progression is probably a formula for failure. Exceptions exist, but they exist in everything and it's not a good idea to plan and design an expensive game hoping to become a widely popular exception. Why would they do that? I hate Blizzard, but who would do that?

Spiff
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Reply #530 on: June 10, 2016, 09:45:49 AM

So apparently stars under people's portraits equal 100 levels, saw a bronze + 14 (114) player today; I mean I know how some people get with new games, but I can't even fathom that.

For me around level 25 the shiny is starting to wear off somewhat tbh. It's not 'vanilla TF2 fun' and the maps and playmodes are somewhat limited atm.
Also if we're comparing dingrats and foozles: hats > the poses and unimaginative skins Overwatch is giving me.
AcidCat
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Reply #531 on: June 10, 2016, 03:42:29 PM

For me around level 25 the shiny is starting to wear off somewhat tbh. It's not 'vanilla TF2 fun' and the maps and playmodes are somewhat limited atm.

I'm of similar mindset at around level 31. It all starts to feel very repetitive and one-note after a few rounds IMO. Fun in short doses but I'm not feeling the unmitigated love that much of the internet seems to have for this game. I wonder how people will feel in a few weeks once the hype has died down.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 03:44:12 PM by AcidCat »
Malakili
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Reply #532 on: June 10, 2016, 03:50:19 PM

I think one of the things this games lacks right now is a real defining map. The maps are fine for the most part, but it doesn't have a map I really look forward to above the others or that I really hope comes up. Dustbowl and Dust (2) and Nuketown and so on get old when people play them 24/7, but I think having that kind of game-defining map does something good for a game overall. I expect new maps will come along over time, but I hope they really knock at least one out of the park instead of a bunch being just good.
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Reply #533 on: June 10, 2016, 04:15:51 PM

2fort4! why so serious?
Kail
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Reply #534 on: June 10, 2016, 05:22:56 PM

I think one of the things this games lacks right now is a real defining map. The maps are fine for the most part, but it doesn't have a map I really look forward to above the others or that I really hope comes up. Dustbowl and Dust (2) and Nuketown and so on get old when people play them 24/7, but I think having that kind of game-defining map does something good for a game overall. I expect new maps will come along over time, but I hope they really knock at least one out of the park instead of a bunch being just good.

I wish they'd release some modding and map editing tools.  I'd kill for some 12v12 capture the flag or something.  Blizzard has been weirdly anal about mods ever since Dota.  Heroes of the Storm, before launch, was supposed to have a full map editor but since launch they've not mentioned it even once that I can find.  Diablo 3 I don't think can be modded, WoW is limited to UI mods, Starcraft 2 can be modded but unless I'm remembering wrong there were a bunch of weird restrictions on it or something...
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 05:26:46 PM by Kail »
Malakili
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Reply #535 on: June 10, 2016, 06:16:12 PM

Starcraft 2 has a pretty fully functioning editor.  The ToS very clearly states that Blizzard basically owns everything made with it, however. They are scared to death that another DOTA comes along and they don't see the money for it. They are hurting their games rather than helping. I kept playing Diablo 3 for years because of mods. Valve did the smart thing and just hired all the people who made big mods for Half Life.

Venkman
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Reply #536 on: June 10, 2016, 07:04:35 PM

Yeah. That's kind of the point right? I mean, if the argument is "you need this stuff for people to play games long term" then all those enormously popular games that didn't have any semblance of progression are evidence against that argument.

The size of the industry and amount and type of competitors are a factor though. It wasn't $80BN industry powered by games that cost $30-60MM on average that long ago smiley

You're speaking of an age when all sense of progress was unique by genre. I'm hazy on some of the history, but I feel like FPS's were defined by session-based K/D only, RTS was measured by social bragging rights, RPGs were (and still are) about character stats over the long haul (this stretched back to late-70s Ultima), sims were about progress through the world as a map-based progression, and almost all of the stats-chasing as the goal was relegated to MMORPGs. Heck, RPGs are really just the honor system first populiazed by D&D character sheets.

Over the last 10 years that stats-chasing has permeated the other genres. But it hasn't consumed them. It's just expanded them. MOBAs would be MOBAs without ranks, though maybe not the eSport it's become. MMORPGs are still a thing even if it's just about Eve and some hangers ons like WoW, RTS is RTS, FPS is FPS, and so on.

These games adopted these methods as a way to extend engagement for those who would otherwise up and quit after getting bored.
lamaros
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Reply #537 on: June 10, 2016, 07:17:06 PM

This game has no chance as an eSport.

The game isn't free, for one, and the gameplay is nothing on TF2, which itself was very popular but never anything close to an eSport.

Hearthstone is the only thing with any potential, but they'd need to up the depth of the game to give professional skill any kind of watch ability.
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Reply #538 on: June 10, 2016, 07:19:09 PM

My friend told me Kibler had switched over to Hearthstone, as far as streaming goes.

Which is, I don't know, a complete and total fucking waste of his skillset. I have to assume he suffered a major stroke and didn't want anyone to know.
Malakili
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Reply #539 on: June 10, 2016, 07:28:12 PM



These games adopted these methods as a way to extend engagement for those who would otherwise up and quit after getting bored.

I totally get that. What I'm saying is that if you're getting bored you should quit and if you're being kept around by loot boxes and meaningless levels then what you're calling "extended engagement" I'm calling "being tricked into playing a game you don't actually like anymore."
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 09:18:29 PM by Malakili »
lamaros
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Reply #540 on: June 10, 2016, 08:18:56 PM

I know that a lot of CS players enjoy the skins side of things, but I'm still playing the game 18 months after I started simply because it's a fun game that I enjoy. Better longevity than anything else I've played for a long time.
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Reply #541 on: June 10, 2016, 08:21:18 PM

I'm enjoying the random hero brawl this week. Nice change of pace until the RNG gets really weird and makes everyone on your team symettra.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Viin
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Reply #542 on: June 10, 2016, 09:26:51 PM

I like playing random too (usually). Makes me play characters I wouldn't normally pick but have gotten to like after being forced to use them. The times it sucks is when the other team is pushing for the last checkpoint to win and we really need some DPS and I keep get the monkey or some shit.

Still horrible with tanks.

- Viin
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #543 on: June 11, 2016, 06:46:09 AM

Any and every competitive game will become an esport but there's gonna be a gap in popularity. if LOL and DOTA are football/soccer then Overwatch will be curling. 

There's just a ceiling for how popular games can be, based on how well you can spectate in them.  Fighting games, MOBA games, even hearthstone it's possible to watch the action from both sides at once.  In any FPS game you are just severely limited to one perspective at a time.  Even if there are multiple screens you can only focus on one.  I'm sure overwatch will have a competitive scene but they won't be selling out stadiums for it and I think blizzard knows that.

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Malakili
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Reply #544 on: June 11, 2016, 07:36:56 AM

Yeah, shooters are definitely my favorite competitive genre to play, but it is my least favorite to watch. No shooter has really satisfactorily found a way to do it well yet. I think you'd need several free flying observers recording the action from different spots/angles and then have a producer putting the coverage together on the fly like a football broadcast.
Sir T
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Reply #545 on: June 11, 2016, 08:13:58 AM

They would have to code a "spectator mode" where you could see glowing representations of everyone running around the ma and where you could zoom into people at will. I'm not sure if that could be done.

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Malakili
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Reply #546 on: June 11, 2016, 09:02:40 AM

I think you'd could get away with 4-5 "camera operator" spectators who are free-flying and simply following the action from different angles/perspectives. I'm thinking do away with first person perspectives altogether in the broadcast. This is already effectively possible in some games, the problem is the production required to take all that video and actually produce a usable broadcast, which is likely only really viable at large, well funded events.
Koyasha
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Reply #547 on: June 11, 2016, 09:40:03 AM

Their 'play of the game' system is a good start, if a little rough.  If they actually manage to perfect a system that can consistently identify the most exciting to watch perspectives and switch to them, they've sort of got an automatic producer cutting things together exactly right.  Maybe.  It'll take a lot of time and work to get it working right if that's what they're thinking, though, so I doubt it will actually happen in this game.  But someday a game will certainly manage that.

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Hawkbit
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Reply #548 on: June 11, 2016, 09:57:52 AM

This looks like fun, but I'm terribad at FPS on PS4. Are there classes with less of a reliance on twitch aiming? It's kinda hard to tell from streams.
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Reply #549 on: June 11, 2016, 10:32:44 AM

Plenty. Mei, Symmetra, Winston, Junkrat. Even Pharah or Mercy, in a way.

Spiff
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Reply #550 on: June 11, 2016, 10:55:44 AM

It has the easiest aiming of any fps I've ever played anyway; projectiles seem to have an enormous hitbox, whether they be rockets, arrows or even just bullets.
Or you can always go as Reinhart and just swing a huge frickin hammer (when you're not busy cowering behind your shield like a 2 ton pansy).
Malakili
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Reply #551 on: June 11, 2016, 12:12:39 PM

Their 'play of the game' system is a good start, if a little rough.  If they actually manage to perfect a system that can consistently identify the most exciting to watch perspectives and switch to them, they've sort of got an automatic producer cutting things together exactly right.  Maybe.  It'll take a lot of time and work to get it working right if that's what they're thinking, though, so I doubt it will actually happen in this game.  But someday a game will certainly manage that.

The problem is you're still seeing things from the first person perspective then. That would be like watching football by switching between helmet cams. It's a terrible experience. You need cameras that are above and around the action capturing it. First person might be interesting in instant replays and analysis to see what the player saw, but I think that overall you need to produce it much more like a sport.
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Reply #552 on: June 11, 2016, 12:40:28 PM

Mechwarrior Online, a FPS by all means (albeit a slow one) that doesn't even allow 3rd person camera for competitive playing, does exactly that when streaming tournaments: the spectator tools allows to see the battlefield from a free-flying camera (or the cockpits) and the players/'mechs are highlighted with blue or red from any distance. It's a game with a very tiny playerbase, but the concept is there and they have realized it and they are using it for their eSport tournament that is being broadcasted right now. It's not that complicated and if one of the worst software house ever can do it, I am sure Blizzard can master it.

Setanta
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Reply #553 on: June 11, 2016, 03:15:00 PM

Their 'play of the game' system is a good start, if a little rough.  If they actually manage to perfect a system that can consistently identify the most exciting to watch perspectives and switch to them, they've sort of got an automatic producer cutting things together exactly right.  Maybe.  It'll take a lot of time and work to get it working right if that's what they're thinking, though, so I doubt it will actually happen in this game.  But someday a game will certainly manage that.

The problem is you're still seeing things from the first person perspective then. That would be like watching football by switching between helmet cams. It's a terrible experience. You need cameras that are above and around the action capturing it. First person might be interesting in instant replays and analysis to see what the player saw, but I think that overall you need to produce it much more like a sport.

Smite has the ability to do a battlefield overhead viewpoint in competitive streams by commentators - it looks terrible and you lose all of the excitement.  I'm certain that HiRes will include it in Paladins which is also trying to set itself up as an esport... and making a hash of the whole game IMO.


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Kail
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Reply #554 on: June 11, 2016, 03:44:38 PM

Mechwarrior Online, a FPS by all means (albeit a slow one) that doesn't even allow 3rd person camera for competitive playing, does exactly that when streaming tournaments: the spectator tools allows to see the battlefield from a free-flying camera (or the cockpits) and the players/'mechs are highlighted with blue or red from any distance. It's a game with a very tiny playerbase, but the concept is there and they have realized it and they are using it for their eSport tournament that is being broadcasted right now. It's not that complicated and if one of the worst software house ever can do it, I am sure Blizzard can master it.

I always hate to make financial arguments, but it does seem bizarre to me that game companies (lots of them) are spending thousands or millions of dollars on competitive tournaments but the tools used to view those games are almost always just tacked on as an afterthought.  Dota 2 should be the BASELINE if you're trying to develop a game that people will watch, not the weird freakish outlier. 

Dota 2:
  • Has an (optional) automatic camera that will zoom around and focus on the action that any spectator can switch on at any time, in addition to the free camera and player views (yes, this is possible)
  • Is crazy stuffed with stats and charts and data that casters can pull up at any time
  • Can be viewed from inside the game client, so you don't have to go to Twitch and watch the game as streaming video (and not just tournaments, you can log in any time and spectate a live high level game)
  • Has integrated store support for things like tickets and tournament passes

I'm certain that HiRes will include it in Paladins which is also trying to set itself up as an esport... and making a hash of the whole game IMO.

Yeah, I have no idea WTF they're doing with Paladins.  "No updates to our alpha game for a month so our teams can practice for the BIG SEROUS BUSINESS E-SPORTS TOURNEY" is the stupidest thing I've heard so far.  Pausing testing on your pre-beta game so that teams can get good on your unbalanced, unfinished version of it is just baffling.
Venkman
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Reply #555 on: June 11, 2016, 04:47:08 PM

I'm not familiar with DOTA2, but what you describe doesn't sound passive enough to appeal to a wide base of spectators. That sounds great for people looking to up their own game. That's fine as far as it goes. But it's not great for trying to get a huge array of spectators to pay for drinks at the bar while they watch.


I totally get that. What I'm saying is that if you're getting bored you should quit and if you're being kept around by loot boxes and meaningless levels then what you're calling "extended engagement" I'm calling "being tricked into playing a game you don't actually like anymore."

Well sure. If these companies designed their games for the one time purchase and it didn't matter how long people played after that. But that hasn't been possible since CD-ROM days.

I can't off hand think of a popular game that doesn't have post-launch patches, ongoing server costs, and either a single player metagame with cloud saves or multiplayer like this one. All that stuff carries a very high post purchase run rate. First we had subscriptions to tackle that. But that only worked for one genre. Then we onshored MTX/IAP. But the amount of people willing to buy that stuff is usually a pretty low percentage of the active player base.

Because of all of that, companies needed ways to extend play time and sessions as long as possible.

Companies are financially required by their to their stakeholders to exploit this.

It's not an accident that the way this occurred is linked to how our brains are wired. Playing for some grind currency that nets you a character foozle which gives you a moment of joy before you start eyeing the next foozle is as close as you can get to slot machines without getting hit with gambling regulations.
Malakili
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Reply #556 on: June 11, 2016, 05:04:29 PM

I mean, to be fair a lot of the post-launch costs that you're talking about are also due to things a lot of people around here aren't thrilled about.
Kail
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Reply #557 on: June 11, 2016, 05:35:54 PM

I'm not familiar with DOTA2, but what you describe doesn't sound passive enough to appeal to a wide base of spectators. That sounds great for people looking to up their own game. That's fine as far as it goes. But it's not great for trying to get a huge array of spectators to pay for drinks at the bar while they watch.

It's passive in the sense that these are the tools casters use to describe what's happening in the game.  Who really came out ahead in the last fight, who's doing well, who's missing all their shots, that kind of thing.  Overwatch has nothing like that, the only thing I've seen is a derpy status bar at the top which has characters health and their ult charge (and if they're "on fire") so you can tell who's dead.  They don't even have a minimap or anything to tell you where the players are.

And while the bar scene is fine, there's more to sports than just people in a bar.  Twitch broadcasts are roughly like watching TV (really compressed TV but whatever) and if you want that, you can have it, slap it on the screen in your bar and put some pretzels on the counter.  But watching in client is more like going to a sporting event in person, IMO even more than going to the actual physical location of the LAN event wherever it's being held.  You can look wherever you want, if you've got a specific player you like you can just follow him around, if you want to watch how they do a certain thing you can go look at it even if the casters don't think it's very exciting, or if you want to spend the entire game with your eyes on the jumbotron watching what the casters are watching, you can do that too.  A loooot of people who are watching this stuff are watching from their computer, and it's kind of maddening to see it treated as a kind of junky television when it can do so much more.
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Reply #558 on: June 11, 2016, 07:13:21 PM

Just an example of how they do it in MechWarrior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y3ZaPIMAJ4

Malakili
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Reply #559 on: June 11, 2016, 08:40:35 PM

Just an example of how they do it in MechWarrior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y3ZaPIMAJ4

Yeah, something in that ballpark is what FPS games need in general.
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