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Author Topic: New DAoC expansion - LDON style - or not  (Read 16060 times)
eldaec
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on: April 12, 2004, 09:52:07 AM

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0001XLNUC/qid=1081653140/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/102-9013726-1917708?v=glance&a%20mp;s=software

DAOC : Catacombs, $29.99, release date is December 04.

No word yet from Mythic over whether this is real or not.

Rampant speculation/whining inside DAoC servers suggests it might be an LDON copy. But no actual information from Mythic.

Personallly I'd be happy enough to try the LDON concept in DAoC. So if the rumours are true - it gets at least 2 cheers from me.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Mesozoic
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Reply #1 on: April 12, 2004, 10:01:07 AM

DAoC copies EQ.  Hmm.

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-Numtini
eldaec
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Reply #2 on: April 12, 2004, 10:13:15 AM

Or DAoC copies AO. Or DAoC copies SWG. Or DAoC copies whichever MMOG you happen to feel like saying is the only one coming up with new ideas.

Most players can only be active at the top end of one or two MMOGs. That being the case everyone copying each other is mostly a good thing.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
kaid
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Reply #3 on: April 12, 2004, 10:35:59 AM

Maybe its just me but the idea of instanced encounters in a game whose end game is supposed to be pvp seems a bit bassackwards.  The really funny thing with daoc is the really good expansions the housing and the upcoming frontier revamp are free but the ones they charge for are the ones people go MEH about.

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Reply #4 on: April 12, 2004, 01:08:53 PM

Instancing should have happened with ToA.

As I said the best next expansion for DAoC is:

- A (single use) cupon to have a /level 45 char out of the box (so that new players won't have to grind 50 levels to see the actual game)
- Player models overhaul (since it's the only confirmed thing)
- A set of instanced dungeons both for lower levels and high end game. Balanced for a max of two groups. (and set to be *hard*)

-HRose / Abalieno
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Mesozoic
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Reply #5 on: April 12, 2004, 01:19:28 PM

Quote from: HRose

- A (single use) cupon to have a /level 45 char out of the box (so that new players won't have to grind 50 levels to see the actual game)


This would be great.  Unfortunately it would require Mythic to admit that the low- and mid-level games are tedious and pointless, which isn't going to happen.  

Until they drastically neuter the level power curve so that a well-played level 20 can kill a poorly played level 50, DAoC will be for the catass.

...any religion that rejects coffee worships a false god.
-Numtini
HRose
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Reply #6 on: April 12, 2004, 01:35:43 PM

Quote from: Mesozoic
This would be great.  Unfortunately it would require Mythic to admit that the low- and mid-level games are tedious and pointless, which isn't going to happen.


They admitted it IN THE WORST WAY POSSIBLE by introducing a permanent /level 20/30.

That nearly destroyed the game. That's why they need to put a lot of work on that part of the game. That's also why they should dedicate a good part of the expansion to aim at the lower levels.

A sudden /level 45 is just for ONE character. New players will be able to reach the endgame without grinding for six months or more, old players will simply love to have another high level alt. But this is a case. Mythic really need to change the /level situation. They are killing the flow of new players. And I was complaining about this right as they proposed this solution.

In particular considering the "New Frontiers" expansion, they NEED a way to let new players experience it. And Battlegrounds are not enough.

-HRose / Abalieno
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Rof
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Reply #7 on: April 12, 2004, 01:38:16 PM

As far as I can tell, there are absolutely no details yet other than the name, and the likelyhood that they'll be using that Emotion engine thing that was announced a short time ago.

Instancing is a complete guess. Though lots of MMOGs seem to be doing it, that doesn't mean DAoC has to follow suit. A single but varied huge area (a la darkness falls) might make more sense; DF is pretty popular with the playerbase.



If Mythic really wanted to speed up the level grind, they could fairly easily do it by making the (classic, old-world) quests pay out much more XP than they do at the moment. Say make doing all the quests at your level give you enough xp for half of that level. Most of the quests are OK (with a mix of some bad fed-ex ones and some good, interesting ones), and give more of a sense of accomplishment than the typical camp grind.

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Mesozoic
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Reply #8 on: April 12, 2004, 01:41:34 PM

/level 20 was a bone thrown to the people who had hit 50 and were in danger of skipping town rather than starting over with a new char.

/level 30 was an attempt at realm population balance.  

Yeah, it killed the low level game.  What also irked me was the way that, like the respec, /level was given no fiction support at all.   There was no attempt at explaining how some people popped into the world at a higher level, just like there was no attempt to explain exactly how Fire_Wiz_0001 became Ice_Wiz_001 overnight.  Just like there will be no fiction explanation for the new Frontiers or new RAs.  

Sorry, slipped into a rant there.

...any religion that rejects coffee worships a false god.
-Numtini
Rof
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Reply #9 on: April 12, 2004, 01:56:37 PM

Quote
no attempt to explain exactly how Fire_Wiz_0001 became Ice_Wiz_001 overnight


I think if you talk to the NPC that you give the respec stones to, they have some little story about magic stones that make you forget everything. Pretty tenuous, but there is something.

I have to wonder if/how they'll explain the frontiers expansion; suddenly there's a big earthquake and all the land changes shape?

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Mesozoic
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Reply #10 on: April 12, 2004, 02:17:38 PM

Quote from: Rof

I think if you talk to the NPC that you give the respec stones to, they have some little story about magic stones that make you forget everything. Pretty tenuous, but there is something.


It still sounds like they fired the creative types.  I mean shit, fantasy is pretty forgiving when it comes to providing rationales to weird scenarios.   Give us something of substance.  

Odd that the magic stones are only available from those NPCs if you are level 20 or 40.  Why do the stones care what level you are?  Are they controlled by the same inscrutable, diabolical forces that care how many man-made buildings a Realm controls, and opens the gates of Hell / DF accordingly?

At some point Mythic just stopped caring about a meaningful world or a coherent  narrative.  That was around the time that I really began to see the game as a skeletal treadmill with a few strips of dirty, withered lore hanging off of it.  Which, of course, is the first step in quitting.  

No, wait.  Admitting you have a problem is the first step in quitting.  But this was the second.

EDIT:  I forgot about the Battlegrounds.  Where exactly are these identical places accessible only by teleport?  And for what reason do the Realms fight over them?

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HRose
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Reply #11 on: April 12, 2004, 02:18:20 PM

Quoting fun today.

Quote from: Rof
Instancing is a complete guess.


It is. It's what I would do if I was at Mythic.
Instancing is the only way to provide challenging and fun PvE without falling in the zerg plague. Epic content for just one or two groups.

Quote from: Rof
If Mythic really wanted to speed up the level grind, they could fairly easily do it by making the (classic, old-world) quests pay out much more XP than they do at the moment. Say make doing all the quests at your level give you enough xp for half of that level. Most of the quests are OK (with a mix of some bad fed-ex ones and some good, interesting ones), and give more of a sense of accomplishment than the typical camp grind.


Too simplicistic. Or they really go back and replan everything trying to learn from WoW or they'll simply play the "catch up" with it. With no result than trying to copy something they will never be able to reach (without a lot of work).
And I don't think Mythic wants to do this.

Questing in DAoC is broken as a system, not just because of the reward.

Quote from: Rof
DF is pretty popular with the playerbase.


It was. Now it's mostly used as a money grind by a few guilds or solo players.

Quote from: Mesozoic
What also irked me was the way that, like the respec, /level was given no fiction support at all. Just like there will be no fiction explanation for the new Frontiers or new RAs.


Right now there's a new NPC on Pendragon telling they are discovering new teleportation systems and so on... It's the base of a fictional excuse.

-HRose / Abalieno
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HaemishM
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Reply #12 on: April 12, 2004, 02:27:23 PM

Quote from: Mesozoic
At some point Mythic just stopped caring about a meaningful world or a coherent  narrative.


Actually, they've pretty much stated flat out that in the initial construction, they just plain didn't have the money to hire a story/lore writer. So they tossed as few bits as they could manage in, and left it at that. And while there may be a little bit more "lore" type things in quests they've added since then, gameplay has won out over lore at Mythic.

Mesozoic
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Reply #13 on: April 12, 2004, 02:32:35 PM

Mythic was not hurting for cash when they came out with DF, /level, the BGs, or respec.  

At least, I don't see how they could have been.  They had plenty of subs right from the beginning and they were hiring programmers.  They decided not to do lore, flat out.

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WayAbvPar
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Reply #14 on: April 12, 2004, 03:07:30 PM

Keeping Lum neck deep in coke and hookers has to affect their bottom line at SOME point =)

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

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daveNYC
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Reply #15 on: April 12, 2004, 03:41:30 PM

You'd think with all the coke, they'd be producing tons of lore.  Maybe incoherent rambling lore, but there'd be a lot of it.

Anyway, I guess I'll keep banging away at my level 29 blademaster.  It keeps me busy and is slightly less painful than head-butting the wall.
eldaec
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Reply #16 on: April 12, 2004, 04:50:53 PM

Quote from: HRose

- A (single use) cupon to have a /level 45 char out of the box (so that new players won't have to grind 50 levels to see the actual game)


While I agree with your aim in suggesting this, it would also have the effect of telling everyone without a buffbot that they now only need buy a second subscription, none of that tedious levelling required.

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Reply #17 on: April 12, 2004, 05:42:43 PM

Quote from: eldaec
While I agree with your aim in suggesting this, it would also have the effect of telling everyone without a buffbot that they now only need buy a second subscription, none of that tedious levelling required.


So? Buffbots are a gameplay problem that Mythic never cared to solve. If it was for me I would already cut their effect to group only, both in PvE and PvP.

I don't see a /level 45 worsening the situation. It's just another way to eliminate a worthless timesink within the game. In particular in this case. If "buffbotting" is considered a problem it should be solved somewhere else. Since they are allowed the /level 45 remains a good thing.

-HRose / Abalieno
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HaemishM
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Reply #18 on: April 13, 2004, 12:25:10 PM

Quote from: HRose
I don't see a /level 45 worsening the situation. It's just another way to shorten average subscription length within the game. .


FIFY.

It may not be a problem for you, it could be a problem for the money guys.

WayAbvPar
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Reply #19 on: April 13, 2004, 01:21:15 PM

/level is just an outright admission that the level grind is NO FUCKING FUN. Instead of fast forwarding people to teh fun, they should make the early stuff fun. /broken record

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

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Reply #20 on: April 13, 2004, 03:22:24 PM

Quote from: WayAbvPar
/level is just an outright admission that the level grind is NO FUCKING FUN. Instead of fast forwarding people to teh fun, they should make the early stuff fun. /broken record


I asbsolutely agree with this. But, imho, they need *both*.

DAoC pushes you toward multi characters. Everyone who plays the game also plays more than one character and often in more than one realm. One toon to level 45 is just the possibility to experience *a whole expansion* they are planning and the *core* of the game. This for the new players.

/level 45 isn't a permanent thing. It's a one time only occasion. You could also limit it to just one coupon for each account, so you won't be able to buy more exp boxes.

Quote from: HaemishM
It may not be a problem for you, it could be a problem for the money guys.


Haemish, this is the same with buffbots. They don't solve a huge problem within the game because it could hurt the subscriptions.

Well, I'm of the opinion that it's *exactly the opposite*. Without buffbots and offering an easier access to the core of the game they could boost incredibly the new subscriptions. DAoC is at zero growth and it's actually going back if you don't consider the european expansion.

This is obviously only my point of view. But I'm just saying that this will help (and a lot) the flow of money. Even more in the long distance.

Perhaps I'm a fool, but I strongly believe in this.

-HRose / Abalieno
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NiX
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Reply #21 on: April 13, 2004, 03:52:10 PM

Quote from: HRose
Everyone who plays the game also plays more than one character and often in more than one realm.


I don't. I think 2-3 in my guild have alt accounts. That's 2-3 out of like 20-30. I think the same amount of my friends in-game have secondary accounts. Not everyone has a second account. Or wants one for that matter. It's not always seen as a bonus to some people.

As for buffbots, ranged buffs. End of story.
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Reply #22 on: April 13, 2004, 04:21:28 PM

Quote from: NiX
Quote from: HRose
Everyone who plays the game also plays more than one character and often in more than one realm.


I don't. I think 2-3 in my guild have alt accounts. That's 2-3 out of like 20-30. I think the same amount of my friends in-game have secondary accounts. Not everyone has a second account. Or wants one for that matter. It's not always seen as a bonus to some people.

As for buffbots, ranged buffs. End of story.


Please read before responding.  He is talking about characters, you are talking about accounts.  Apples and oranges.
Numtini
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Reply #23 on: April 13, 2004, 04:51:37 PM

Quote
They admitted it IN THE WORST WAY POSSIBLE by introducing a permanent /level 20/30.

That nearly destroyed the game.


What did it do? As far as I can see it was just a convenience. Nobody actually played below 20 anyway. They just did kill tasks solo.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
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Reply #24 on: April 13, 2004, 04:53:45 PM

Quote from: NiX
Quote from: HRose
Everyone who plays the game also plays more than one character and often in more than one realm.


I don't. I think 2-3 in my guild have alt accounts. That's 2-3 out of like 20-30. I think the same amount of my friends in-game have secondary accounts. Not everyone has a second account. Or wants one for that matter. It's not always seen as a bonus to some people.

As for buffbots, ranged buffs. End of story.


No alt accounts. Alt *characters*.

As for buffbots, group buffs. Ranged buffs won't solve the exploiting of PvE.

I said this many times: I will always understand players cheating with the radars when Mythic already allows you to cheat with buffbots, both in PvE and PvP.

Everything not part of your group and not considered in the reward (both RPs and exp points) is an exploit that needs to be wiped.

-HRose / Abalieno
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Reply #25 on: April 14, 2004, 06:35:20 PM

And now look the press release :D

http://www.mythicentertainment.com/press/catacombs.html

“Instanced dungeons support a more casual gaming style by giving players exclusive play sessions for groups of all levels and abilities.”

Catacombs’ system of “player versus monster” instanced dungeons will allow more casual players of Dark Age of Camelot to quickly find and adventure in exciting and challenging areas geared to their level. By eliminating the need to search (and sometimes wait) for monster encounters, in Catacombs, players generate private adventuring areas for their groups on their schedule.


Raw features:

    *  Major art upgrade to Dark Age of Camelot player character models utilizing the EMotion FX 2 graphics engine that provides more detailed facial features, hairstyles, and skin tones as well as enhanced armor, clothing options and character animations.
    * Instanced content will allow player groups to adventure in “private” dungeons.
    * Content will be provided for all character levels.

Look above to my post:

- Player models overhaul (since it's the only confirmed thing)
- A set of instanced dungeons both for lower levels and high end game. Balanced for a max of two groups. (and set to be *hard*)

They replaced my /level 45 cupon with a new class. I know, I'm more original.

-HRose / Abalieno
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Rof
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Reply #26 on: April 14, 2004, 07:54:49 PM

A good guess on instancing, well done. Hard to know what effect it will have on the game, though.

A new class per realm? That's surprising. They have enough problems balancing the nearly 40 they have already, without adding 3 more.

I'm not sure I could come up with three new class concepts that aren't just rehashes of classes already in the game. They pretty much have the standard gamut covered. I guess they might do something really radical.

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Velorath
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Reply #27 on: April 15, 2004, 02:05:06 AM

Maybe it's just me or the server I played on, but I can't remember ever waiting for a spawn, let alone to the extent that would make instancing a big deal in DAOC.  If anything, the real problem was the lack of people to begin with.  In the end though it doesn't really matter to me what they put in this expansion. because if a free fucking total PVP revamp expansion isn't even enough to get me to go back to DAOC, nothing in this expansion is going to either.  Mythic could call this thing "DAOC:  Fun for the Casual Gamer, especially Velorath", and I still would't care at this point.
eldaec
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Reply #28 on: April 15, 2004, 02:56:04 AM

Quote

Maybe it's just me or the server I played on, but I can't remember ever waiting for a spawn, let alone to the extent that would make instancing a big deal in DAOC.


I assume you left before "ToA:Rise of the spawn timer".

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Mesozoic
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Reply #29 on: April 15, 2004, 06:15:31 AM

Well, they keep busy, I'll give them that.  I had hoped that the lack of new classes in ToA was a tacit admission that there were too many classes in the game as is.  Oh well.  

And I haven't seen any real competition for mobs in the game either, so I'm not sure where the motivation to instance comes from.  Somehow I don't think they'll be instancing the TOA content, so I'm not sure what the point is.

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eldaec
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Reply #30 on: April 15, 2004, 09:49:13 AM

Quote from: Mesozoic
Somehow I don't think they'll be instancing the TOA content, so I'm not sure what the point is.


One would imagine that Catacombs will come with yet more phat loot that requires ToA style encounters, only instanced this time.

The Artifact system seems awfully complicated to go to the trouble of programming in, then leave it with so few drops actually using it for one thing.

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Reply #31 on: April 15, 2004, 02:20:41 PM

Quote from: Velorath
Maybe it's just me or the server I played on, but I can't remember ever waiting for a spawn, let alone to the extent that would make instancing a big deal in DAOC.


Instancing is needed to provide compelling PvE and prevent "zergs". When you know that a particular zone can be entered by just eight peoples you can build the encounters tailored exactly for that. This means that you can work on the gameplay, dealing with the fun.

Obviously if Mythic doesn't screw this as it destroyed all the good ideas behind ToA.

Again, it also offers the possibility to actually play the damn game. Being able to build a pair of groups and try a dungeon is a lot, a lot better than having to organize a whole zerg for twelve hours.

That's why instancing is good.

-HRose / Abalieno
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Nebu
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Reply #32 on: April 16, 2004, 10:08:05 AM

New class... hmmm.

With the upcoming release of WoW, Lineage 2, CoH, and EQ2 they must be scrambling for a way to hang on to what fanbase they have left.  

Maybe the marketing department found a necessary NEW bot class. I can hear the boardroom now "Well, buffbots increased subscriptions... maybe a new and necessary bot class will do the same... brilliant!"

;p

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eldaec
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Reply #33 on: April 16, 2004, 01:43:16 PM

Quote from: Nebu

With the upcoming release of WoW, Lineage 2, CoH, and EQ2 they must be scrambling for a way to hang on to what fanbase they have left.  


As with every other launch and exp pack for every other MMOG since the beginning of time, I imagine the effect on server populations of all the above games combined will be very close to zero.

People cancel subscriptions when they are bored of the game.

The majority of people in DAoC play it as their first MMOG - the majority of people in all the above games will play them as their first MMOG.

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Reply #34 on: April 17, 2004, 03:38:35 AM

Quote from: HRose
Instancing is needed to provide compelling PvE and prevent "zergs". When you know that a particular zone can be entered by just eight peoples you can build the encounters tailored exactly for that. This means that you can work on the gameplay, dealing with the fun.


I don't think in DAOC's case that you can tailor an encounter for a set number of people due to an almost complete lack of balance at this point.  Last I heard for example (and I haven't been keeping up with DAOC related things too much lately so this might have changed) some balance issues with animist pets allowed fairly small teams of hibs to blow through a lot of ML bosses.  Is it still possible for Mythic to tailor an encounter to an 8 person group since RA's, ML's, Artifacts, and class balance issues can make one 8 person group a lot more powerful than another 8 person group?
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