Healthism!!11

[DraconianOne]

I left my last GP because I was tired of her shitty advice. But really, a big part of it was that she was fat, and not that 'size 12 model' fat. Hard to take health advice from someone who is probably not healthy.

All GPs give shitty advice.  You know why? Because the health guideilnes that are in place are about as flakey as a leper's scalp. 

You know how we know somethings are true - like the fact that you get after exercising for a long time because of a build up of lactic acid in the muscles? A lot of it is crap - normally based on a misunderstanding of what's actually happening or confusing correlation with causation.

So: switching to a low fat diet will stop you getting fat.  Well, between 1970 and 2000, the average amount of fat consumed per capita in the US went down. People did actually listen and they did start switching to low fat diets. It had fuck all effect on obesity though - those stats still climbed. Why? Because even though they cut the fat, the amount of calories being consumed per head went up (and most of it was carbohydrates).

Still, saturated fat must be bad because it's got cholesterol right and cholesterol is bad and a major cause of CHD? Yeah, well, that's not quite as it seems either.  The Framingham Heart Study which has being going on since 1948 hasn't significant correlation between cholesterol in the diet and occurence of heart disease. Even Ancel Keys, who pioneered (if you can call it that) a lot of dietary health science is quoted in 1997 as saying "There's no connection whatsoever between the cholesterol in food and cholesterol in the blood. And we've known all along. Cholesterol in the diet doesn't matter at all unless you happen to be a chicken or a rabbit."  More related reading: http://qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/content/105/6/509.full, http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/805580

But your GPs probably won't be aware of any of this. They'll be too busy measuring your BMI and telling you to eat low fat and low cholesterol and eat your five a day.

Even at the moment we're on the verge of either another major dietary revelation (or possibly a damp squib) regarding over consumption of carbohydrates and it might turn out that Atkins, of the infamous low carb, high fat Atkins diet, might have been right. Remember that bit above about the increase of calories and carbohydrates in relation to obesity? Well, it's been theorized for a while that being overweight and inactive can build insulin resistance and lead to type 2 diabetes although don't ask about people like Steve Redgrave, the multi gold winning Olympic rower, because he's a statistical anomaly.  There have also been studies about the postive effect of low carb diets on the insulin resistance of people with diabetes.

Recently, however, there's been more of a call (led by renowned South African sports scientist Tim Noakes in particular - although he's earned himself a massive amount of scorn and abuse for putting his head above the parapet) for research in relation to carbohydrate consumption and developing insulin resistance based on the theory that our general move to low fat, high carb diets has, for a lot of people, imbalanced their diet and fucked up their insulin resistance which has, in turn, led to a continuing rise in obesity. The new theory is that switching to a low carb, high fat diet may counter this and lead to better health and weight loss.

Of course, you try to tell people about that and they cry "fad diet" and look at you as if you're a climate change denier or an anti-vaxxer.  Because it goes in the face of what we all know - fat is bad, carbs are good, right? And yet, it may be a theory which has more merit (and far more demonstrable and less impactful on the rest of us than denying climate change or the other).

Who the fuck knows? Who do you believe? The up to date research? Your GP? The "revolutionary" scientist? It certainly makes life as a personal trainer a little more difficult - do you stick to government prescribed guidelines because they're accepted, even though you're not sure they're very good or do you recommend something that could come across as a bit of quakery?

Perhaps I'll just stick with "I don't know. Eat less, move more, shut the fuck up and run faster".



Fake edit: this turned into more of an incoherent rant than I planned but fuck it, it's late and I want to play games.

[Thrawn]

For me a big worry is always noticing how many people have stomach/intestinal/whatever issues.  A scary amount of people I know, fit, obese, whatever have acid re-flux, or have been diagnosed with irritable bowl syndrome and other general digestion problems that can't seem to be cured even with diet changes.

[Triax]

Ok, fine, I'll nibble in this thread then.


To those who say "shame on the fat" in their own ways, I can see your reasoning and understand the disdain, irritation or whatever you want to call it for those who do not take the initiative to educate themselves and improve their diet, etc.  Personally don't agree with it, but I do understand the line of reasoning.

As an outlier, since I believe I would qualify as such for most peoples rant, what about me?  Would you make the distinction and understand the circumstances that have put me here?  Or would I receive the same disregard and disdain that accompanies your viewpoint for other fat people?

For your informational evaluation:
I have severe psoriatic arthritis throughout most of my body, which got me through Social Security Disability in 3 months (which is unheard of, even by people working in the departments I've talked with).

I was placed on 10mg of Prednisone (a highly potent steroid) in order to attempt to deal with the side effects from the witches brew of medications I was placed on to attempt to curtail the massive edemas and swelling I had in wrists, ankles and knees.  Because of that swelling, physical workouts were a no-go, with walking to the bathroom involving mental calculus of how much it was going to hurt and how long would it take me to get there while trusting joints that could decide they didn't want to work at any moment.

With that level of Steroid consumption, and knowing what that meant, I moved to reduce my caloric intake by at least 10% and up to 15% if possible.  I gained 70 pounds in 3 months, with the stretch marks to prove it.

Being on fixed income and with painful arthritis, talking with dieticians, doctors, etc, the only real option for any kind of fitness regimen involved zero-impact workouts in swimming pools, which on a low-fixed income, were impossible to pay for whilst living in the San Franciscio Bay Area.  However, moving out wasn't an option as my support network of family and friends all lived close by, and without them, I'm not sure what I would have done.  It was an ugly 3 years until we found what works.

However, with the weight having been put on with prednisone, no real way to take it off.  Daily mobility of getting around involves handicap placards and a cane to walk around and I've had some relief through acupuncture and pain management.  And thankfully, we've found medication which mitigates my arthritis, but it's VERY expensive (which ACA covers most of, and my parents spot me for the donut hole, since Humira is up to $2700 per month)

What's my point?  Well, what could I have done differently, as the arthritis was pretty much unavoidable being genetic, and weight-loss is difficult at best, without finances to support any kind of program.  Secondly, would I be treated any differently than the person on the street who is fat because "exercise is hard"?

[Selby]

What's my point?  Well, what could I have done differently, as the arthritis was pretty much unavoidable being genetic, and weight-loss is difficult at best, without finances to support any kind of program.  Secondly, would I be treated any differently than the person on the street who is fat because "exercise is hard"?

Nope, per the people in this thread you're just a lazy fat fuck who needs to stop being fat, eat better, and exercise more.  Were it only so simple for everyone.  My mom has extremely bad arthritis and is on a similar cocktail of drugs.  The only way she's been able to not balloon up is because she truly eats next to nothing anymore: a piece of bread or two for lunch, maybe a chicken breast and some veggies for dinner.  It isn't pleasant to see her having to go through this, and I'm concerned for myself because what she has can be genetic.

My super-sized weight gain (120lbs to 310lbs in 2 years) was a combination of not really caring about anything and extreme hormonal imbalances.  Fortunately I recognized that shit had to change, so I'm down to 200 or so (which for 6'3" isn't exactly that outlandish) but it sure required a ton of effort of both exercise\diet and medication.  Fortunately no one other than my family ever shamed me into losing weight.

[Thrawn]

What's my point?  Well, what could I have done differently, as the arthritis was pretty much unavoidable being genetic, and weight-loss is difficult at best, without finances to support any kind of program.  Secondly, would I be treated any differently than the person on the street who is fat because "exercise is hard"?

Nope, per the people in this thread you're just a lazy fat fuck who needs to stop being fat, eat better, and exercise more.  Were it only so simple for everyone.  My mom has extremely bad arthritis and is on a similar cocktail of drugs.  The only way she's been able to not balloon up is because she truly eats next to nothing anymore: a piece of bread or two for lunch, maybe a chicken breast and some veggies for dinner.  It isn't pleasant to see her having to go through this, and I'm concerned for myself because what she has can be genetic.

I guess I haven't been reading close enough because I haven't gotten that vibe from hardly any of the posts.  Some people are going to get screwed by the genetic lottery and they can't do much about it and it sucks.  That doesn't change that many more people are just lazy fat fucks who need to stop being fat, eat better, and exercise more, like myself for example.

[Hoax]

I think if you have a cane and look like you need it cane sympathy will probably outweigh (lel) my disgust for your fattyness. If you are still in SF maybe I'll run into you some day and we can find out. Also I only see Paelos (lol) and Pennileko on the hardcore fuck fatties bandwagon. Everyone else is saying, I don't feel sorry for them and I may mock them behind their back but so what? I mock all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons which was the point of my post about crackhead or juicer looking people pages ago.

Unless you were the dick at Winter Soldier (at Metreon) who was fat as fuck and sat down in front of me without any regard driving the back of his chair into my knee fucking hard with his fat disgusting ass. Piece of shit motherfucker that guy was. My knee still hurt when I got up and left the theater. Seriously fuck that guy. If that movie hadn't been so great I would have def laid into him when it ended but I didn't see the point in spoiling my good mood.

[Triax]

I think if you have a cane and look like you need it cane sympathy will probably outweigh (lel) my disgust for your fattyness. If you are still in SF maybe I'll run into you some day and we can find out. Also I only see Paelos (lol) and Pennileko on the hardcore fuck fatties bandwagon. Everyone else is saying, I don't feel sorry for them and I may mock them behind their back but so what? I mock all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons which was the point of my post about crackhead or juicer looking people pages ago.

Unless you were the dick at Winter Soldier (at Metreon) who was fat as fuck and sat down in front of me without any regard driving the back of his chair into my knee fucking hard with his fat disgusting ass. Piece of shit motherfucker that guy was. My knee still hurt when I got up and left the theater. Seriously fuck that guy. If that movie hadn't been so great I would have def laid into him when it ended but I didn't see the point in spoiling my good mood.

Asshole is asshole, regardless of weight, disability or general appearance.  Oh, and tweren't me...but if you wish to fuck him, have at 

[Evildrider]

I think if you have a cane and look like you need it cane sympathy will probably outweigh (lel) my disgust for your fattyness. If you are still in SF maybe I'll run into you some day and we can find out. Also I only see Paelos (lol) and Pennileko on the hardcore fuck fatties bandwagon. Everyone else is saying, I don't feel sorry for them and I may mock them behind their back but so what? I mock all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons which was the point of my post about crackhead or juicer looking people pages ago.

Unless you were the dick at Winter Soldier (at Metreon) who was fat as fuck and sat down in front of me without any regard driving the back of his chair into my knee fucking hard with his fat disgusting ass. Piece of shit motherfucker that guy was. My knee still hurt when I got up and left the theater. Seriously fuck that guy. If that movie hadn't been so great I would have def laid into him when it ended but I didn't see the point in spoiling my good mood.

Asshole is asshole, regardless of weight, disability or general appearance.  Oh, and tweren't me...but if you wish to fuck him, have at 

My bad. 

[Pennilenko]

Triax clearly falls into that category I laid out in my post where I said people that don't have a choice fall into protected status. He is also in that outlier exception category.

Also, I don't go around being rude to fat people or shit on them in public. I just refuse to buy into their bullshit or give them special status. So I guess that makes me only half an asshole.

[Maven]

Sober, reasoned, universal dietary education *appears* difficult to come by. I'm still learning new things.

As an example, my go-to for information is the Fitness sub-reddit FAQ. It broke down the importance of focusing on protein / fat as the primary macronutrients to focus on for your daily caloric needs, then worrying about carbohydrates to achieve your surplus / deficit / maintenance levels. On that basis, Atkins *does* have it right.

When I was growing up, Fat had such a strong, negative evocative effect because of the anti-Fat campaign. Ignorance sucks.

[Cyrrex]

Focusing too much on macro-nutrient breakdown is a big mistake, unless you have very specific health issues or are a serious bodybuilder.  Energy In versus Energy Out is still king.  For people who are simply overweight, it is 99.9999% (totally made up percentage) likely that you simply fail to be on the right side of this equation, regardless of what the hell you are eating.  It is quite possible to eat absolute shit and still lose weight or maintain weight.  Hundreds of millions of people do it all the time.

And I hate to say it, but the same thing applies to most people who claim that serious health issues are holding them back.  What most of you fail to understand is that a human body that just sits there like a blob all goddamn day will STILL burn through a shitload of calories.  The majority of your metabolic burn is simply used to keep your body functioning on a basic level.  The actual number of calories each of us burn on average is determined by different factors related to specific metabolism and body composition.  Some small amount is also burned based on our physical activity.  What this means is that a really fat dude who lays on his sofa all day in the fetal position is still burning through at least a couple thousand calories a day.  It doesn't matter if the cause of his inactivity is a serious medical condition, or simple laziness.  That side of the energy equation will be more or less the same.  In other words, it is still a total bullshit excuse.  Not understanding macro-nutrient impacts makes the problem worse only in that these same people are probably also tending to overeat the simple carbs that both mess up their blood sugar, but also require slightly less energy to digest.  But this is mostly a red herring.  Eat fewer calories than your body requires, and you will lose weight.  Almost all overweight people are overweight because they eat too much, not because of medical conditions or lack of knowledge on macros.

I don't mean to disregard it completely, because understanding the types of energy you are consuming is important, and it can also be useful in understanding why we hit plateaus (in either direction) and how to break through them.  Not to mention that it plays a role in your overall health.  But a very overweight person is just adding unneeded complexity by focusing on such things.  

[apocrypha]

Eat food, not too much, mostly vegetables.

We all have individual responsibility for our own health, but as a society we could make it much, much easier to achieve. If all we focus on is the individual responsibility without tackling the more complex, larger scale issues then things will only continue to worsen.

Moralise at overweight people as much as you like, it won't actually change anything.

[Numtini]

We all have individual responsibility for our own health, but as a society we could make it much, much easier to achieve. If all we focus on is the individual responsibility without tackling the more complex, larger scale issues then things will only continue to worsen.

That was about the perfect summary.

[01101010]

Eat food, not too much, mostly vegetables.

We all have individual responsibility for our own health, but as a society we could make it much, much easier to achieve. If all we focus on is the individual responsibility without tackling the more complex, larger scale issues then things will only continue to worsen.

Moralise at overweight people as much as you like, it won't actually change anything.

But that begs the question: How much is individual and how much is societal responsibility? How much easier does society have to make things in order to withdraw itself from the conversation?

America has a huge issue with shirking individual responsibility and blaming everyone and everything else for their problem. Compounding the issue is that people get away with it which creates a feedback loop to bolster the behavior.

[Merusk]

Yep, America loves itself some individualism right up until the responsibility for poor choices part kicks in.

[Maven]

Focusing too much on macro-nutrient breakdown is a big mistake, unless you have very specific health issues or are a serious bodybuilder.  

...

But a very overweight person is just adding unneeded complexity by focusing on such things.  

Absolutely. Different situations, different needs. Looking at total caloric intake and working with that is a good starting place. However, I disagree with the first statement and the criteria you use. I would agree that focusing *only* on it is a mistake.

Yep, America loves itself some individualism right up until the responsibility for poor choices part kicks in.

The United States is a world leader in rationalization. Just look at all the bullshit we've exported in the last half century!

[Mithas]

I think the biggest problem is that most fat people never learned how to eat right.

I work with a guy who is fat. He knows he is fat and should do something about it. He tells me that he comes from a big family. His ideas about eating are totally off. He thinks he can keep eating like he is now and just needs to exercise. He thinks eating healthy is his wife making a giant pasta and cheese casserole instead of eating McDonald's. His portion sizes for lunch are easily double what I would normally eat. He brags all the time about how much his kid can eat. At his first birthday party he talked about how cool it was that his son devoured his cake. His child is already chubby at two years old. Fat people pass on their own stupid ideas around food to their children who repeat the same process.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but breaking that cycle is the only thing that will help the problem.

[lamaros]

He thinks he needs to exercise because people make money off telling people they can be healthy if they just exercise more. Or if they just 'go on a diet'. Actually considering being overweight, underweight, or whatever, as a lifestyle issue that needs radical change and a new relationship with food in a really significant way is a bit much for some - plus there isn't any money in selling that message.

[Paelos]

America has a huge issue with shirking individual responsibility and blaming everyone and everything else for their problem. Compounding the issue is that people get away with it which creates a feedback loop to bolster the behavior.

In the case of food companies, they are a very real problem in this debate. They are actively poisoning the world while chasing their profits. Take the example of Subway who recently HAD to be publicly shamed for putting yoga mat materials into their bread. There was no real reason for that chemical to be there. It was there to speed up the dough, making it faster to produce, and thus more money. Nevermind the fact that it's potentially dangerous, or that it flies in the face of Subway's "Eat Fresh" lie. The food companies are cutting corners constantly with additives that have no place in regular foods.

This goes on all the time. The only way around it is to eat foods that have no processing, but those are now some of the most common foods. I don't blame people for being confused about what's in their foods. It's often a complete mystery and it's designed that way by the food companies.

But no matter what you eat, portion control is always a decision. That's where things get out of whack for many fat Americans.

[Malakili]

Sober, reasoned, universal dietary education *appears* difficult to come by. I'm still learning new things.

As an example, my go-to for information is the Fitness sub-reddit FAQ. It broke down the importance of focusing on protein / fat as the primary macronutrients to focus on for your daily caloric needs, then worrying about carbohydrates to achieve your surplus / deficit / maintenance levels. On that basis, Atkins *does* have it right.

When I was growing up, Fat had such a strong, negative evocative effect because of the anti-Fat campaign. Ignorance sucks.

Just do yourself a favor and ignore the fitness subreddit.

[01101010]

Oh I completely agree that food manufacturers bear some responsibility. Additives for the sole purpose of making it cheaper (and also worse for the consumer) are a bane on diets. HFC instead of sugar, adding a shit ton of sugar to offset a shit ton of sodium which is there for some notion of preserving and extending shelf life... etc. Since we can't have overregulation (politics incoming!), they are made to list their ingredients, and now their nutritional content instead of developing healthier foods and a slightly higher cost. In the RAH RAH free market rhetoric, the companies making shit foods should go under because no one would buy it... but that is another issue.

I am not arguing that food manufacturers are not to blame for stocking the stores with cheap, unhealthy food stuff. I am curious though as to how much regulation is needed to remove them from the argument and if that will actually have any noticeable effects give the current climate of individual responsibility or lack there of.

[Paelos]

It's not necessarily about regulation is it is education. The big move to put calories on everything as a standard is my first step. Everything.

One regulation I would do is to standardize serving sizes. Food companies play fast and loose with this all the time, and divide a small bag of chips into 2 servings. That's not the way it should be.

The other would be for companies to label additives and preservatives separately and clearly. They try to mix it into the middle of fine print right now. I wouldn't let that stand. The reason people went after Subway is because they were educated on the stuff they were eating. Similar issues would happen if food companies were simply telling you what you were putting in your body.

[Mithas]

More fuel for the fire. European Court of Justice to rule on whether or not obesity could be viewed as a disability:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27809242


Edit: clarity

[Chimpy]

I lost close to 100 pounds by watching my calorie intake like a hawk. Sure, I changed WHAT I ate as part of it simply because some things I was eating (like fried cheese sticks from Arby's) contained a TON of calories for a relatively small serving size and not eating those types of things made it easier to keep inside my calorie budget and not feel like I was starving myself because I had only eaten a couple of calorie dense snacks instead of lower calorie but more filling meals. But the weight loss was pretty much entirely the "Burned>Eaten" in a normal day thing. I still have a pretty shitty diet in terms of some of the things I eat and I don't eat anywhere remotely near enough vegetables and fruits, but I am better off than I was.

But exercising and getting in better shape only happened after I had taken off 60-70 pounds.

Now I am in more of an exercise mode because I want to take off a few more pounds and build up some muscle tone I lost over the years as I got sedentary and older. That and I find I feel better if I get to ride the bike or run or even walk a bit most days.

[Miasma]

Unhealthy food is one of the few things I enjoy in life so whenever I start to eat right I go into a deep depression.  I know if I was able to stick with it for a few months the positive effects of eating right would kick in but I have been unable to bridge that gap.

[Mithas]

I'm only slightly overweight but I have been on and off diets for years. Totally eliminating the things you love is impractical. Give yourself one bad meal a week and do really well the rest of the week. It gives you something to look forward to, to work toward, and helps keep your sanity. Otherwise you will stick to a diet, do really well for a few months and then binge when you get off because you missed those things so much.

[Bunk]

To preface this, I am a skinny framed guy whose metabolism slowed down through his thirties and could now stand to lose twenty pounds, mostly around my gut. Twenty pounds sounds like nothing, but when your target weight is 145, it's quite a bit.

I realized when I decided to start dropping some weight last year, that one of my bigger mental roadblocks was the whole "Clean your plate - think about the starving Ethiopian kids" thing that was drilled in to me as a child. Have we finally gotten away from that? It seemed to be a huge thing in the eighties - shaming each other in to over eating rather than "wasting" food. Really, we should have just focused on learning make smaller portions.

I know what I need to do to lose weight - back off the beer, back of the between meal junk food snacks. Problems is, I really don't want to. I've done it for stretches, dropped ten pounds, felt like I accomplished something, and then rewarded myself by putting it back on again. Yay cycles.

As for the whole healthism thing, yea I'm guilty of it. I tend to judge people based off their appearance. Wish I didn't, but when you first see someone, its the only thing you've got to make an opinion from. But whether I'm judging them in my head or not, I'm still polite and sociable. I don't make fun of people or put them down for their weight, that's just not the kind of person I am. Yet part of me wishes I would.

I say that, because I know people who are overweight that I really wish I could convince to do something about it. The worst being when it's kids. I can't tell my friend's 16 year old daughter, "Hey, your're way too fat. Do something about it." but I really wish I could - because I'm concerned for her. I recognize the effect that carrying around an extra 20 pounds has on my body - the idea of what an extra 100 pounds must be doing to someone scares the shit out of me.

[ezrast]

As for the whole healthism thing, yea I'm guilty of it. I tend to judge people based off their appearance. Wish I didn't, but when you first see someone, its the only thing you've got to make an opinion from. But whether I'm judging them in my head or not, I'm still polite and sociable. I don't make fun of people or put them down for their weight, that's just not the kind of person I am. Yet part of me wishes I would.

I say that, because I know people who are overweight that I really wish I could convince to do something about it. The worst being when it's kids. I can't tell my friend's 16 year old daughter, "Hey, your're way too fat. Do something about it." but I really wish I could - because I'm concerned for her. I recognize the effect that carrying around an extra 20 pounds has on my body - the idea of what an extra 100 pounds must be doing to someone scares the shit out of me.

That's true of everyone. Every single person is racist, classist, sexist, "healthist", or some combination of a thousand other possible prejudices. It's an unavoidable part of human socialization, and anyone who thinks they're immune is kidding themselves. All you can do is call that shit out when you see it and try to make baby steps. And that means calling it out in yourself first and foremost, or you're just a hypocrite. Saying "I'm guilty of it" and seeking to self-improve is the most important thing you can do.

If that were the kind of personal responsibility that internet forum toughs could take to heart, maybe we'd see some fuckin' social progress.

[Evildrider]

I just had a Monte Cristo with jam and onion rings.  Totally healthy. 

[NowhereMan]

The other would be for companies to label additives and preservatives separately and clearly. They try to mix it into the middle of fine print right now. I wouldn't let that stand. The reason people went after Subway is because they were educated on the stuff they were eating. Similar issues would happen if food companies were simply telling you what you were putting in your body.

Everything I've read about the Subway thing from a credible source seemed to say that there wasn't anything wrong with the additive they were using, it played the same sort of role it did in making Yoga mats (that is helping stabilise air bubbles (iirc)) so that the overall texture was better, whether softer mats or fluffier bread. The only cases where it was found to be harmful was being directly exposed to very large quantities of the stuff. Complaining about it was the equivalent of going apeshit about arsenic being in your cranberry juice because someone added apple juice to it. Yes it is a potentially harmful product but it's not going to have any bad effects on you in the doses present and it's being used for a valid reason. The lady with the blog who started this whole thing has basically no facts beyond 'well it's harmful to people directly exposed to huge quantities and they use it for stuff that isn't food so even if studies show it's perfectly fine how do we know Also Yoga mats!'

Which is kind of the flipside of the problem with being conscious of food additives, etc. Even when you become aware of them there's a whole lot of other shit to take into account. 99% of us don't have a good enough understanding of chemistry to even identify what most of those things are or whether they might be bad for us. I think having the ingredients listed is an important thing but really the main thing is having the nutritional information available. And, as in Europe, have it available as a listed serving size and per 100g.

[01101010]

I think having the ingredients listed is an important thing but really the main thing is having the nutritional information available. And, as in Europe, have it available as a listed serving size and per 100g.

I agree with having a standard serving size across the board, but the main issue with that is no one in America, save for your ultra-nutritionist, is going to have any idea how much 100g or 8oz is exactly. Especially with dry goods, how large/small is 8oz of potato chips or cookies? One of the main arguments in having a 'serving size' listed on drink bottles or small serving bags of stuff is the listed serving size is always 2 or 2.5 or 3 in order to make the calories and nutritional content seem less than what is actually in the bag. I have to go exploring, but I thought I had read that there was a push to relabel this stuff, as it was somewhat deceptive, to just label the nutritional value according to the bag and leave out this 2.5 servings per bottle/bag/etc. So that bottle of soda would be labeled as to the values in the bottle and not in a 1/3 of the bottle.

[Chimpy]

There is a push to adjust the serving sizes on the labels to make more sense. A few items I have purchased have actually had the total per container as well as the per serving (usually smaller snack sized things).

I bought a nice digital diet scale about a year and a half ago and it really has helped me get a better feel for what a portion size by weight really is. One of the most useful $20 expenditures I have had by far.

[Paelos]

Everything I've read about the Subway thing from a credible source seemed to say that there wasn't anything wrong with the additive they were using, it played the same sort of role it did in making Yoga mats (that is helping stabilise air bubbles (iirc)) so that the overall texture was better, whether softer mats or fluffier bread. The only cases where it was found to be harmful was being directly exposed to very large quantities of the stuff.

Simply put, our culture doesn't know what chemicals are harmful until 10 years after the fact, and the companies insulate themselves from this by preparing funds for potential lawsuit settlements. You know, instead of just baking fucking bread like normal people.

[Merusk]

They also bank on being able to say, "Well we've done this for 10 years without problems so it can't be us.  Prove it's us. Here's our reports and scientists that say you're wrong."

Asbestos, Smoking, and Lead are great examples of this strategy and they continue to be adopted by others.

[Evildrider]

Now this is why we are fat.