FIFA World Cup 2014 (Brazil) SPOILERS: Read at own risk

[01101010]

Whatever happens, please no Brazil vs. Argentina final. There will be riots and it will be fucking chaos on the pitch.

That stadium will be maddening. On the opposite end, a Germany/Holland match would be way more subdued. I still got Germany winning out, so hopefully a Germany/Argentina match is in the pipe.

[Nebu]

That stadium will be maddening. On the opposite end, a Germany/Holland match would be way more subdued. I still got Germany winning out, so hopefully a Germany/Argentina match is in the pipe.

Germany/Argentina would be the most entertaining to watch.  That's for sure.  Though I have to admit that I enjoy watching Robben play.  He may be the hardest working midfielder I've ever seen. 

[Cyrrex]

That stadium will be maddening. On the opposite end, a Germany/Holland match would be way more subdued. I still got Germany winning out, so hopefully a Germany/Argentina match is in the pipe.

Germany/Argentina would be the most entertaining to watch.  That's for sure.  Though I have to admit that I enjoy watching Robben play.  He may be the hardest working midfielder I've ever seen. 

I used to just think he was a giant douche, but I have to admit that I have changed my mind about him.  He works his ass off.  He may also be the most dramatic diver in all of football, but more often then not he actually is getting fouled...he just embellishes the shit out of it when it happens.  I mean, his dives are so over the top that they are actually hilarious to watch.

[01101010]

I used to just think he was a giant douche, but I have to admit that I have changed my mind about him.  He works his ass off.  He may also be the most dramatic diver in all of football, but more often then not he actually is getting fouled...he just embellishes the shit out of it when it happens.  I mean, his dives are so over the top that they are actually hilarious to watch.

Which will contrast with Messi's non-dives. I am looking forward to it more-so than the Germany/Brazil match.

[HaemishM]

I think Robben IS a giant diving douche. However, there's no way you can deny his sheer breakaway pace and football skill. He may be one of the most overly dramatic play actors out there but fucker can still ball.

[Trippy]

He also seems to like to draw the fouls intentionally. I.e. he'll try to run through people hoping for the foul rather than try and go around or just pass it.

[Malakili]

The diving does piss me off, but at the end of the day it works.  Until FIFA starts telling the refs to hand out yellows liberally for diving, it's going to continue.

[Chimpy]

Basically, unless they are going to change officiating to have more officials on the field, the best way for them to deal with extra curricular stuff that is missed (or stuff like diving) is to use post-match review panels which would then be able to levy fines (in professional leagues) and suspensions etc by reviewing video. Rugby and Australian Rules Football both do it and while it can be a bit arbitrary, it does cut down a lot on the "well I can get away with it if the ref is dumb and/or does not see me".

[HaemishM]

Thing is, they ALREADY do that - that's how Suarez got his suspension because he wasn't penalized at all during the game since the ref didn't see it. Start doing it for diving and you might see less diving. What you would see is a lot of clubs going ape shit because half their stars are getting suspended every second game.

[murdoc]

I know it's 3 pages ago, but being in Vegas for the USMNT vs. Belgium game was pretty great. Even better was betting the draw 

[Jeff Kelly]

Scolari was also manager when the last disgraceful  'kick them in the shins' match happened by the way. Portugal vs. The Netherlands in the round of sixteen of the 2006 World Cup. The game that ended with 4 red cards and 12 yellows. So it's safe to assume that the Brazillian team is doing what Scolari is teaching them to do.

Brazil is currently leading the board on fouls committed by team (96) and three of their players - including Hulk and Neymar - are in the top 20 of fouls committed by players. At the same time only half as many yellow cards have been awarded this time around (about 150) than at the last world cup while the amount of fouls committed has been stable.

A few Refs are also coming out of the woodwork and claim that FIFA ordered them to award less yellow and red cards and to not card players for certain actions anymore.

I wonder if Brazil would have still reached the semis if the refs had been officiating the games like they did in 2010 or 2006 and been quicker with awarding yellows and reds.

[IainC]

Scolari was also manager when the last disgraceful  'kick them in the shins' match happened by the way. Portugal vs. The Netherlands in the round of sixteen of the 2006 World Cup. The game that ended with 4 red cards and 12 yellows.

4 red cards and 16 yellows.

[Shannow]

And while people are bitching that the ref in the Colombia-Brazil game let it get out of hand , that video shows you that no matter how many yellows you hand out players will still do dumb shit.

[Hoax]

No that was on the ref. That Portugal vs Netherlands game was a special brand of crazy between two teams that are very willing to get ugly. Also the ref did his job that game but you have to remember that the Dutch came into that with intent to play nasty and took out Ronaldo with a 100% dirty play early in the game and Van Bommel was putting some stick in every chance he got from the start. So from there it just devolved into nastiness. A lot of those cards aren't even for hard fouls though luckily and the truly terrible tackles mostly died down. If the ref had done what that Spanish idiot did this time around there may have been several more injuries by the end of that game.

Also its been obvious that FIFA gave some strange directive to the officials. They are basically never ever across all matches carding someone in the first half hour. No matter how terrible the foul. Most refs seem to have basically put the cards away for the first half.

[Nebu]

While I know this may be an unpopular opinion, I think letting players play is almost always a better decision than letting the refs determine the outcome of a match.  

On a separate note, I'm surprised at how many people still have Brazil as the favorite despite missing two key players.  That either speaks to their depth, the value of home advantage, or both.

[Amarr HM]

Maybe what you call 'play', is what everyone else calls 'kicking the shite out of each other'.

[Nebu]

Maybe what you call 'play', everyone else calls 'kicking the shite out of each other'.

I did play American football at a pretty high level.  That may influence my opinion.  

Those men on the field are at war.  Let them sort it out.

[01101010]

While I know this may be an unpopular opinion, I think letting players play is almost always a better decision than letting the refs determine the outcome of a match.  

On a separate note, I'm surprised at how many people still have Brazil as the favorite despite missing two key players.  That either speaks to their depth, the value of home advantage, or both.

Speaks to the fact that Brazil as a country may devolve into mass chaos if the team gets bounced. I am not claiming any overt advantage to the Brazilian team, but it would not surprised me in the least if they are given a pass on some things.

[Hoax]

Sure in American football or maybe hockey that attitude is all well and good but it doesn't work in soccer.

That would be akin to saying, you need to let pitchers bean motherfuckers all day and do nothing and let batters rush the mound all day and do nothing. The war isn't really closely tied to the actual playing of the game in soccer. Where in football you are just randomly calling 20% of the committed penalties of a given type based on who the fuck knows what criteria. There is holding every play but only some holding is holding. There is illegal contact every play but who cares most of the time. There are rub routes and pick plays all the time but that's like nba traveling. etc. etc.

What happened in the Portugal vs Netherlands game was the result of targeted dirty play at a star player, then retaliation and then all hell breaking loose. I wonder what would have happened if the ref had shown a straight red for the tackle on Ronaldo. It was studs showing high and late. It wouldn't have been unheard of.

[HaemishM]

It's blatantly obvious this World Cup that the refs have been told NOT to award yellows early. Some refs, like the one in the Brazil/Colombia game just simply refused to hand them out until he just couldn't get away with it anymore. And it isn't even about handing out yellows so much as getting control over the game and cutting some of this shit out. Both sides in that match were just chopping the FUCK out of each other. And there should have been at least 4-5 more yellows handed out in that game but not a one was given until well into the second half.

I'm hardly one who wants to see the idiotic reffing that went on in 2006 - that was an example of really shitty, overly card-y reffing that really hurt that tournament. This is to the other extreme, however, and there are way too many shitty, clearly intentional fouls going on. I watched a little of the Colombia/Uruguay game last night and Uruguay were just kicking the shit out of shins and getting nothing from the refs, not even a real good talking to.

[Amarr HM]

Hoax you are spot on, ref loses control of a football game and it devolves into a different sport. Not pretty to watch for the purists like myself. The real calamity was that Brazil knew they weren't set up to beat Colombia by playing football, so knowing that they would get a lenient ref played professionally
They need to stamp out persistent fouling like that and persistent diving it bloody ruins the spectacle. At least they brought in goal line technology and shaving foam all the same.

The beautiful game as it once was.

[Nebu]

Sure in American football or maybe hockey that attitude is all well and good but it doesn't work in soccer.

That would be akin to saying, you need to let pitchers bean motherfuckers all day and do nothing and let batters rush the mound all day and do nothing. The war isn't really closely tied to the actual playing of the game in soccer. Where in football you are just randomly calling 20% of the committed penalties of a given type based on who the fuck knows what criteria. There is holding every play but only some holding is holding. There is illegal contact every play but who cares most of the time. There are rub routes and pick plays all the time but that's like nba traveling. etc. etc.

What happened in the Portugal vs Netherlands game was the result of targeted dirty play at a star player, then retaliation and then all hell breaking loose. I wonder what would have happened if the ref had shown a straight red for the tackle on Ronaldo. It was studs showing high and late. It wouldn't have been unheard of.

Read what I said again.  I stated that I would rather let the players dictate the outcome than the refs. 

Haemish has it right.  The refs need to play a role of controlling dangerous behavior without carrying it to a point where they alter the game play significantly. 

[01101010]

Wonder how much of this ref inactivity is due to the specter of match fixing. So they are letting the teams play a little rougher until it becomes so blatant, that NOT carding it becomes suspicious - whether that is coming down from FIFA or just personally with the refs themselves. Just a thought.

[Chimpy]

While I know this may be an unpopular opinion, I think letting players play is almost always a better decision than letting the refs determine the outcome of a match.  

On a separate note, I'm surprised at how many people still have Brazil as the favorite despite missing two key players.  That either speaks to their depth, the value of home advantage, or both.

Speaks to the fact that Brazil as a country may devolve into mass chaos if the team gets bounced. I am not claiming any overt advantage to the Brazilian team, but it would not surprised me in the least if they are given a pass on some things.

This is the key to a lot of it I think. If Brazil is still in the tournament, it keeps Rio from burning down around FIFA's heads. There is a lot of discontent with the way FIFA is basically stealing billions from the pockets of the Brazilian people to line their own, Brazil still having a spot in the competition keeps the masses placated a bit. As we get later in the tournament the danger of unrest if Brazil loses get higher and higher. It would be entirely different if Brazil had fielded a team of the caliber of the ones from before 2010 as they would be able to play on a less "dirty" level. But this Brazil team has almost no offensive depth and they have basically from the first game taken advantage of the officiating allowing them to play the rough and tumble way.

[Nebu]

Didn't Brazil build a $400 million stadium in the middle of nowhere for what amounts to 4 matches?  I can see that causing some "unrest".

[HaemishM]

Didn't Brazil build a $400 million stadium in the middle of nowhere for what amounts to 4 matches?  I can see that causing some "unrest".

Yeah, that was the stadium the US played their first game at - the one that is basically jungle humidity conditions ALL THE TIME. The Brazilian government and FIFA fucked over the economy but good in a money-sucking pyramid scheme. John Oliver's discussion of the subject was spot on.

[Jeff Kelly]

Those men on the field are at war.  Let them sort it out.

Since you've played American Football you know that even in AF there are clear rules what the offense and defense is allowed to do and what it doesn't. What is a correct and legal tackle and what isn't, what is considered legal blocking and what isn't and so on. You also have referees that can penalize teams if they step over the line.

Just imagine for a second a Super Bowl game with two NFL teams that already bend the rules by playing dirty and a ref team that has the order to not use any flags for the first two quarters unless absolutely necessary. Watch the game degenerate into a free for all brawl where everyone that is not a 300 pound defensive end will get hurt quite severely.

The rules are there for a reason and it's mostly to make sure that the teams are still playing the game of football and not something else that just involves some kind of round object. Especially since they are not wearing any body armor as protection and aren't tackled like in American Football. Being kicked in the face by  players wearing shoes with metal spikes on the soles can lead to severe injuries.

Refs have leeway and a good ref will probably not card any shenanigans that are considered 'tactical'. The ref's responsibility is also keeping control of and being in control of the game and making sure that itt actually stays the game of football.

If he doesn't assert control then what usually happens is what you could experience in Brazil vs. Colombia and I can cite countless examples of games that went exactly that way because the ref wasn't assertive enough.

[Nebu]

Jeff,

Trust me when I say this:  Players rarely behave because they are afraid of a 15 yd penalty.   

I also realize that Soccer and American Football are a very different beast.  My point was more toward stating that players should determine the outcome of a match rather than the officials.   

[HaemishM]

Refs not calling clear fouls and letting all sorts of shit go that would have otherwise earned a free kick (or flat out calling shit wrong)... that can determine the outcome of a game just as much as calling too many ticky-tack fouls. See Green Bay v Seattle in the game that ended the replacement refs fiasco. What should have been pass interference by the offense wasn't called on the last play, Seattle catches a last second TD pass (debatable but not the point) that wins them the game. As a result of that 1 loss, Green Bay didn't win the division and had to play San Fran on the road in the playoffs - a game which they lost.

Not choosing to call fouls can have just as much impact as calling too many.

[Nebu]

Not choosing to call fouls can have just as much impact as calling too many.

I agree with you 100%.  I said as much earlier.

[Cyrrex]

I agree with the "let them play" idea in one sense - the refs are blowing the whistle ALL THE TIME for ordinary fouls that just should not be called.  This is partly due to diving, and partly because of...I have no idea why.  So yeah, give a yellow or a red on a clear, nasty violation.  But keep the whistle away for all the bullshit.  A very large portion of those "fouls" that are causing players to fall down are not fouls at all, they are players who fall down specifically to draw the foul.  There is the obvious, classic diving, but there is also the far less obvious fake bullshit happening all the time where minor contact is created and the player falls.  Because the player chooses to fall.  These guys are world class athletes who have been playing the game their entire lives, and the more offensive minded of them have INCREDIBLE balance and agility in their legs.  Minor contact is not going to make them fall. Part of the reason Messi doesn't fall down all the time is because he choses not to.

Also, getting kicked in the shins or getting your foot stomped...the natural human reaction to this is not to cover your face with both hands.  That is what a faker does.  

[WayAbvPar]

I don't mind either way, as long as it is consistent so the players know ahead of time what sort of sanctions (if any) their actions will earn. If a ref is calling it very close and you dive in with both feet, it is your fault your get to shower early. I hate to see the flow of a game retarded by incessant whistles, but as long as it works the same for both teams everywhere on the pitch and at any time of the game, I can live with it. It is shit that is a foul at 27 yards but not at 17 that drives me insane.

[Cyrrex]

Good point.  I also loathe seeing the falls called on the offense in the penalty area on free kicks for little or no contact.  Fouls that would never be called anywhere else on pitch.

[Cyrrex]

This is going to be a fun game to watch if this pace keeps up.

How in the world do you let Mueller stay open in the penalty box on a corner?  These Germans are so good with these dead ball situations.

[Sir T]

Jesus. 2 nill to Germany after 22 mins. Where the hell are the Brazilians?