Mobile Games: Stop being such a bitch about them.

[Merusk]

Saw this link on Scott (Lum's) facebook page and felt like sharing. It's my general attitude about mobile games written much better than I ever could.

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.fi/2014/05/please-stop-complaining-about-free.html

In short: Stop whining about mobile games not being "real" games or "tainting" future players.  They're games, they're fun, stop being an uptight cunt, indy developers.  This isn't a zero-sum game and you're starting to sound a lot like the whiny douches at the losing end of every other tech shift. (Riaa, Cable companies, Movie Theaters, Radio)

[Soulflame]

I don't like mobile games because they're implemented in such a way that eventually you either have to spend ridiculous amounts of time grinding, or spend a lot of real money to advance.  Sometimes both!

Hell, I wish mobile gaming was more fun.  It's currently not.  There's no sign it's going to become any more fun.  There is every sign that the monetization will increase.

[schild]

Cough. Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeze.

No one is saying they can't make a shitload of money. By nature of the platform and what it attracts, 99.9999% of them are, were, and always will be total dogshit and they're worth complaining about.

Total. Dog. Shit.

I won't comment on Vogel but to say its in his interest to take this stance .

Edit: also. Those asshat arteest indie devs? That attitude appeals to a crowd and makes the casual crowd stay away from their shit. I dont think those people like money anyway, so it works for them. As for Notch, whatever, guy got lucky and bottled lego.... lightning. Wont happen again. Not like Minecraft.

[Sky]

Total. Dog. Shit. I'm with schild on this one, so that basically makes it the truth.

I'll tell you what. I'd ease up on the utter shithole that is free/low cost mobile gaming if some studios would make some decent fucking games even if it cost a few more bucks and didn't build it around panhandling me like some grubby homeless hipster. Really, I just skimmed that stupid article that sets up more straw men than Dorothy's wet dreams. I don't mind people making cartoony games that make money. I care that they're shitty games.

The only good thing I have to say about looking into mobile gaming on my tablet was an article on how to set up dosbox for gog games, and even that isn't worth the hassle, really.

Also. Let me play Minecraft:PE with a mouse and keyboard.

[Rasix]

Mobile games are great for giving you a break from your young child or getting them to sit still at a restaurant.   Otherwise, I can't think of a single mobile game that I've reinstalled once I've uninstalled it. They're all ports or forgettable drek.

[shiznitz]

I have yet to download a free game I would describe as total dog shit.  In fact, I have to say that have enjoyed them all for various amounts of time.  My experience might be due to the fact that I have not downloaded that many (maybe 20?) and I don't download games on a whim, but usually wait for a sold recommendation from someone I know  or play it on someone else's device first.

[Phildo]

I tried out 2048 the other day because it's the hot, new game, and had a good time through two playthroughs.  Half an hour later I had a message on my lock screen inviting me to "come back and play 2048".  Immediately uninstalled.

[HaemishM]

Can I also hate on indie douchenozzles who think that "pixel art" is somehow a fucking artistic choice? It's not, it's because you don't have the budget for "real artists" and thus decided that going back 15 years for art style that engineers could emulate is somehow artistic as opposed to budgetary. Fuck that.

Mobile games? Don't fucking care. I've tried playing many of them, and they all too often remind me of the douchey pixel art games I just complained about. I also don't spend money on them most of the time because if you don't commute by train, or spend lots of time away from some form of PC or TV-attached device, why are you bothering playing these inferior gaming experiences? Also, why do you care if people who wouldn't be playing video games anyway pay money to mobile game developers for games you don't give a shit about anyway?

In short, why is anyone talking about mobile games?

[Soulflame]

I tried out 2048 the other day because it's the hot, new game, and had a good time through two playthroughs.  Half an hour later I had a message on my lock screen inviting me to "come back and play 2048".  Immediately uninstalled.

My wife has a game on her iPad, something "Camelot".  Pretty much as soon as she exits the game, it starts yelling for her attention again.  I'm not sure why she hasn't uninstalled it yet.

[Hawkbit]

Can I also hate on indie douchenozzles who think that "pixel art" is somehow a fucking artistic choice? It's not, it's because you don't have the budget for "real artists" and thus decided that going back 15 years for art style that engineers could emulate is somehow artistic as opposed to budgetary. Fuck that.

Generally I agree.  Sword and Sworcery has an exception, imo.

[Nightblade]

Can I also hate on indie douchenozzles who think that "pixel art" is somehow a fucking artistic choice? It's not, it's because you don't have the budget for "real artists" and thus decided that going back 15 years for art style that engineers could emulate is somehow artistic as opposed to budgetary. Fuck that.

Wait, what?

[Kail]

Can I also hate on indie douchenozzles who think that "pixel art" is somehow a fucking artistic choice?

NO you may not.  I forbid it!

Actually, the one that really gets me is "minimalist."  Minimalism is an artistic style, not an excuse to make your entire game out of untextured cubes.

Re: the article, it seemed to miss the point to me.  The rebuttal to just about every point was "yes, but a lot of people are doing it / it's making a lot of money" which seemed a bit misdirected.  Like asking indie filmmakers to stop criticizing Michael Bay movies because they're profitable.  And even then, as far as I've seen (feel free to correct me), most mobile games don't make money.  Yes, the ones that do make insane amounts of cash, but the vast majority make basically nothing.  That's not a domain in which most garage studios can compete, so getting on your soapbox to defend the multi-million dollar corporations from them seems awfully petty.  Thank God Zynga has people like you to stand up for them against a guy cobbling together an MMO in his free time from his mom's basement because he really loves the genre.  Hey, be sure to point out that he's not making millions of dollars while Zynga is, I'm sure that will change his mind.

And the bullet points where that's not his argument are worse.  "People think mobile games aren't hardcore, but they require even more time investment to beat than a hardcore PC / Console game!" is such a colossal case of derp I have difficulty believing he even wrote it.

[Merusk]

No, the point was, "Stop getting your panties in a bunch about what other people are enjoying."

Which, was missed by everyone. Good job.

They're games which are ultimately a pointless frivolity. Nobody's doing them wrong, you're just not the market for these particular products.  The majority of the bitching all seems based on the fear that, "Oh shit this might become mainstream and I'll only be a sliver of the market." 

That ship sailed a long, long time ago, boys and any developer of what you enjoy who chases that dragon will also fail, because they don't understand the consumer either.  These people were never going to buy a AAA title. They're not Xbox gold purchasers or hacking away in MMOs or even pouring over replays of LoL matches on youtube to refine their game. They bought a Wii for Wii Sports, they mess around on mobile games while waiting in lines or at a lull in a social activity. 

At worst you'll get more kids who want a richer experience looking in to deeper games as they get older. Oh no, expanding the 'traditional' player base, which has trended way too old as time's worn on. Millenials outnumber genX by a lot, the average PC & console gaming age should be getting younger, not trending into its mid 30s.  Which it did as soon as they included mobile platforms.
http://kotaku.com/5931077/the-average-age-of-a-gamer-just-dropped-by-seven-years-um-what

So, yeah, stop being such a bitch about them.

[Venkman]

Feh. You guys are late for the party. This all started with Facebook games.

I'm going to start with personal bias:

I'm not going to sit at my fucking iPad screen for three hours of exclusive gaming like I do on my PC or console (and really, I just threw console in there because I assume how that goes for console fans... not for me, I hate those too). And shit, I am certainly not doing any more than looking at my iPhone screen a few times per minute, each for about 10 seconds at a time. I'm on the bus/in a meeting/walking between them/in traffic.

Every game that does well on those platforms acknowledges the kind of play occasion that user has. Smartphones and tablets have all the same genres that PCs have. But the only ones that get the traffic and dollars are those that acknowledge how a user wants to play on the device.

ACIV companion app vs ACIV whatever-tie-in-app. The former basically gave you a second screen experience (map, missions) without needing a second monitor, nor fighting the modal UI in the PC/Console version just to assign ships to battle and use the map. The latter was something about some girl assassin at some point in time I'd much rather experience on the PC/Console than on some tiny ass screen between meetings.

Hearthstone proves me wrong. Maybe. Let's see in three months. Some argue Clash of Clans does too. But then the most popular PC game in the western markets right now (by number of players, revenue and followers) is an eSport that coulda launched on mobile first for just how much it's like the other PC games we usually play.

There's a lot of shit out there of course. But there's a lot of shit at GameStop and on Steam too. And I don't mean empircal shit, just that I'd bet most of us will never experience 50% of the total games out there in any environment simply because they don't pass the first test (judging by recognition), the second test (judging by pedigree) nor third (judging by screenshot). Of course not everyone does it like that. And of course someone's already writing an angry retort about me having the gall to imply this all. Blame how metacritic and key reviews can still be used as a bellwether for sales. I don't make the rules.

It's just so easy to slap together the next Candy Crush iteration over a weekend that we get 50x the number of knockoffs per proven mechanic on mobile that we do on PC, much less console.

tl;dr mobile gets a bad rap, but there's nothing so different from historical Steam and Wii games outside raw quantity.

[Kail]

No, the point was, "Stop getting your panties in a bunch about what other people are enjoying."

Ok, but why?  We're not allowed to critique something we don't like now?  Because something's mainstream it is not OK to discuss it?  

There are people that take games seriously.  There are people who think games are art, or that games are important in some way. There are people whose livelihood depends on games, who are really passionate about them.  You might disagree with them, but you're not going to convince them that they're wrong by pointing to big stacks of cash and going "neener neener, I bet you wish you had this, but you don't, because you keep insisting on designing games with actual mechanics instead of copying Farmville like a smart person would!"

Mobile games make money, we know that, that's not the issue.  If you want to defend mobile games, pointing to their massive install base is not telling anyone anything they don't already know.

edit: added last bit

[Samwise]

No, the point was, "Stop getting your panties in a bunch about what other people are enjoying."

Ok, but why?  We're not allowed to critique something we don't like now?  Because something's mainstream it is not OK to discuss it?  

It's one thing to say "I don't like this" and another to say "the existence of this detracts from my enjoyment of other things".

If you're complaining that mobile gaming will be the death of gaming then you're doing the latter, and you're being dumb.  I don't see the point in wasting breath saying that "casual" RMT-based mobile/FB/whatever games aren't good games, you might as well complain that SyFy movies lack artistic vision or that Arizona is too dry.

[Kail]

It's one thing to say "I don't like this" and another to say "the existence of this detracts from my enjoyment of other things".

Right, no argument from me there, but there's different perspectives here.  The perspective of the average gamer on this board (for example), who's just a consumer, versus the perspective of a developer, who's personally invested in the success of their product.  I don't think the existence of mobile gaming negatively impacts my day at all, but a developer who's got to compete with Candy Crush might have legitimate reasons to feel differently about it.

[Samwise]

I don't think the existence of mobile gaming negatively impacts my day at all, but a developer who's got to compete with Candy Crush might have legitimate reasons to feel differently about it.

Which gets us back to the original point of it's not a zero-sum game, this crap is expanding the market rather than taking away your slice of it, put on your big boy pants, etc.

[Selby]

I still play Bejeweled and have since 2002 when I got my first smart phone.  Mostly it's related to me sitting around waiting for something and wanting mindless entertainment - there hasn't been a AAA game I've liked or wanted to play in years.  I think I have all of 3 or 4 games installed on the phone and have never paid a dime for any of them.  I consider most of the games to be vapid and money grabs, but that's not my problem as I'm not giving them my money and I have no problem making fun of people I know who do give them money ;-)

[TheWalrus]

I play Clash o Clans, Dungeon Keeper, and Plants v Zombies. I spent an initial 5 bucks for an extra worker once I figured out I was going to play for a bit. I enjoy both defense games, and for the platform,  think they're perfect. Play when you want, no money sink, fun stuff. Every generalization is false, etc.

[Margalis]

The fact that there is a new "in defense of free to play dogshit" piece every 2 days is more damning than anyone actually damning them. These games only need constant defense because they are as a whole so self-evidently awful.

[Merusk]

If they're all so awful as to be self-evident, why the constant need to also publish articles every 2 days bashing them?

Oh, because they're successful in ways indy devs aren't because that market segment doesn't want to play the indy shit and it burns their britches. Big boy pants time, not all customers want your product.

[Maven]

I work with a lot of lower-class co-workers whose jobs involve menial, low education tasks. Playing Candy Crush for the nth time on their breaks is enjoyable and provides needed relief from their day-to-day. It's like television watching, giving their brain a break, and I don't see anything wrong with games designed with that in mind.

It seems like trashing mobile games would be like looking down on Sudoku or Crossword Puzzles for not being sophisticated or "quality" products on the level of entertainment that I think most of this board has grown accustomed to expect.

[IainC]

I don't think the existence of mobile gaming negatively impacts my day at all, but a developer who's got to compete with Candy Crush might have legitimate reasons to feel differently about it.

A developer who's got to compete with Candy Crush is already developing for mobile. The target demographic for Candy Crush doesn't have a gaming PC or a console. They might have an iPad but they for sure have a phone and maybe a laptop that can run Facebook games.

I make mobile games these days and I've been making f2p for a while. A lot of f2p games are shit and should be scourged from the earth but that's an artifact of the low barrier to production and not something endemic to the model. Sturgeon's Law applies just as much to mobile games as it does to PC games aimed at core gamers.

Core gaming is growing for mobile. There's stuff out there that isn't aimed at bored soccer moms or ADD kids. I'm playing Panzer Corps on my iPad at the moment, it's as diametrically opposite to Candy Crush as it's possible to be while still being in the set of video games. The Collectibles has a shit monetisation design but the game is aimed squarely at gamers like us. X-Com, Hunters 2, Tactical Heroes (obligatory self-l=plug) are all core games for core gamers and there are hundreds more.

[Sky]

No, the point was, "Stop getting your panties in a bunch about what other people are enjoying."

Not missed. I don't care people love these things, I think it's great. I support them at the public library, after all - facebook games put asses in seats.

But as I have an android tablet, I'd like a decent game or three on it, ffs. I'm not bitching so much about the current offerings as the lack of anything good as a 'refined' gamer :p

(Iain, your game is competitive, I don't like competitive games.)

Anyway, I think it's disingenuous to say we're saying it's hurting gaming overall. We're saying they suck (yay opinions) and as long-time gamers we wish there were some good options amongst the bajillion clones of crap and payware. I have my big boy pants on and want to play a good goddamned mobile game that isn't tower defense or puzzle or rts - I want an experience similar to what I have been playing for years. If you can't code a game with the depth and intelligence of something written on a motherfucking 486DX - I turn it around and say put on YOUR big boy pants.

Or just admit that you're shoveling out LCD stuff in hopes of a big payday and fuck integrity.

How about this as a challenge. Integration between platforms so I can play Civ V or whatever at home with a full graphical interface and then when I'm sitting in the dentist's office I can load up my steam cloud save and play a few turns on a tactical map? Or something? Give me fucking something to be positive about mobile gaming that isn't "suck it up and learn to love this shitball new paradigm and forget the decades of gaming experiences you've previously had."

[IainC]

How about this as a challenge. Integration between platforms so I can play Civ V or whatever at home with a full graphical interface and then when I'm sitting in the dentist's office I can load up my steam cloud save and play a few turns on a tactical map? Or something? Give me fucking something to be positive about mobile gaming that isn't "suck it up and learn to love this shitball new paradigm and forget the decades of gaming experiences you've previously had."

Frozen Synapse does this. You can pick up your games on any supported device from where they left off.

Of the games I mentioned, Hunters 2 is TBS. Panzer Corps is grognardy TBS strategy straight out of the Avalon Hill model of cardboard counters and hex maps. The Collectibles is TBS with a TCG monetisation model tacked on top and Crytek production values, X-Com is.. well it's X-Com. They all offer the same experience that you get on your current PC. Check out Pocket Tactics or Touch Arcade to help you separate the wheat from the chaff, if you're just browsing the store then you'll see all the chaff and clones that you are complaining about but I bet you don't look for PC games that way.

[Sky]

No, I come to f13 and when I posted asking for suggestions I didn't get much.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=24115.0

[Margalis]

I work with a lot of lower-class co-workers whose jobs involve menial, low education tasks. Playing Candy Crush for the nth time on their breaks is enjoyable and provides needed relief from their day-to-day. It's like television watching, giving their brain a break, and I don't see anything wrong with games designed with that in mind.

I don't really care about mobile games - to me they're just a different industry. It's like Hollywood movies vs porn - they are both movies, but they aren't the same industry. I do find it annoying how GDC is now half "how to market your mobile game" shit - to me that has nothing to do with game development.

I think "mobile games are killing games" is more "f2p mobile games are killing the market for premium mobile games" - which is true. I don't care, but I guess it sucks if you are trying to make good, premium mobile games, like the people who made The Room or Room Escape or whatever the fuck it's called.

Oh, because they're successful in ways indy devs aren't because that market segment doesn't want to play the indy shit and it burns their britches. Big boy pants time, not all customers want your product.

The vast majority of both indie and mobile games fail spectacularly. They're actually very similar in that regard. Mobile games have a higher upside, but both markets are extremely volatile and the average experience is complete failure.

I also don't really understand the point of pitting indie devs and mobile devs against each other, considering that the majority of indie devs probably work on mobile games.

[Ingmar]

How about this as a challenge. Integration between platforms so I can play Civ V or whatever at home with a full graphical interface and then when I'm sitting in the dentist's office I can load up my steam cloud save and play a few turns on a tactical map? Or something? Give me fucking something to be positive about mobile gaming that isn't "suck it up and learn to love this shitball new paradigm and forget the decades of gaming experiences you've previously had."

Frozen Synapse does this. You can pick up your games on any supported device from where they left off.

Of the games I mentioned, Hunters 2 is TBS. Panzer Corps is grognardy TBS strategy straight out of the Avalon Hill model of cardboard counters and hex maps. The Collectibles is TBS with a TCG monetisation model tacked on top and Crytek production values, X-Com is.. well it's X-Com. They all offer the same experience that you get on your current PC. Check out Pocket Tactics or Touch Arcade to help you separate the wheat from the chaff, if you're just browsing the store then you'll see all the chaff and clones that you are complaining about but I bet you don't look for PC games that way.

How many of those are on Android as opposed to just iOS? That's where the industry is lagging from my perspective.

[IainC]

It's true that Android gaming suffers from a particular paucity of choice compared to iOS. I talk to a lot of mobile devs and the overwhelming consensus seems to be (anecdotally at least) that if you want to make money you develop for iOS first and then consider an Android port ony if your game does well in the App Store. Unfortunately it's not possible to force people to develop for a platform they find unappealing. If you can think of a way, then the people at Blackberry would love to talk to you.

[Mazakiel]

It's why I switched over to an iPad and gave my Android tablet to a friend with a young kid.  The app support was pretty disappointing, even with some stuff that wasn't gaming.  There's a good variety of mobile gaming out there for iOS, and my tablet sees a ton of use thanks to it. 

[Speedy Cerviche]

A game like Candy crush is competing with Danielle Steel or the NY Post / Sports Illustrated for someone's  break time, bus ride leisure, it's not competing with Elder Scrolls, Eve Online, etc. I might load up bejeweled and try to beat my high score when I am on the can, not when Im sitting around at home deciding whether to watch something, read, or play Europa Universalis.

[TheWalrus]

No, I come to f13 and when I posted asking for suggestions I didn't get much.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=24115.0

You also have a super narrow range of games that you find personally appealing as well, at least going on what you gave us in that thread. Your likes just don't line up with the market as it is and probably will be for awhile.

[HaemishM]

I do find it annoying how GDC is now half "how to market your mobile game" shit - to me that has nothing to do with game development.

Except it has ALL to do with game development. I found this out when I published my first novel. Marketing my novel has fuckall to do with writing novels, but without it, I don't make any fucking money from all that hard work. "Write it and they will come" doesn't work in a media-saturated environment like the App Store or Amazon.com. Same goes for game development. If a game company doesn't figure out how to get eyeballs on their game, they won't be making any money.

[Phildo]

It's important, but it's a bit cynical when you have something called the "Game Developer's Conference" and it's really a Game Marketer's Conference.  Shouldn't they talk about the development of games at some point?