Sony says: Eat this, Blizzard

[Viin]

http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/content.vm?page=FreeContent

I didn't see this anywhere, so thought I'd mention it.

Sony claims to have 350,000 players (subscribers? characters?) on EQ2. Seems high to me, but what do you guys think?

[SirBruce]

http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/content.vm?page=FreeContent

I didn't see this anywhere, so thought I'd mention it.

Sony claims to have 350,000 players (subscribers? characters?) on EQ2. Seems high to me, but what do you guys think?

This is pretty old news by now.  I would have posted it but didn't want to start about subscriber argument.  (Yes, it's 350K subscribers.  Was 310, then 325, then 330, now 350K.)

Bruce

[Sky]

Could be.

I know about a dozen folks irl who play mmogs. Two of them (myself included, heh) bought EQ2. The other EQ2 guy (the eqholic) bought WoW yesterday. Neither of us had any intention of playing WoW and were excited about getting back into EQ with a clean slate.

Just my own personal experience, signifying nothing.

[Miasma]

That page seems desperate and petty. The long bulleted list just serves to point out the huge number of mistakes and poor ideas they implemented, then had to try and reverse.

I'm guessing the 350,000 number they are touting includes every single all access pass that can be more accurately attributed to EQ live or SWG.

Edit: And most of the people waiting in queues are on overpopulated PvP servers, something EQ2 doesn't offer at all.

[WindupAtheist]

350k?  Didn't even EQ1 do better than that?

[HaemishM]

Yes. The number is even more dubious than most MMOG subscriber numbers, because it came so soon after release (i.e. not after the free month was up), and because the All-Access Pass can be easily used to hide or inflate the number of people actually subscribed.

The more accurate number is that SOE has a total of over 800,000 accounts between EQ1 and EQ2, SWG, and Planetside.

[Alkiera]

I'm confused regarding people's assumptions about those who have the 'all-access pass'.

People who enjoys EQLive, typically will not want to play SWG as well... And arguably vice-versa.  The games are just too different.  I can see some cross-polination between SWG and Planetside, both being sci-fi games.  I've even heard people ehar claim they'd sign up to play both(back before SWG was part of the deal).

Other than being able to play the other games, there is no benefit to being an 'all-access' subscriber to the majority of the SOE games.

EQ2, on the other hand, has MANY bonuses for people who have the 'all-access' pass.  Pass users get 4 extra character slots, and get free access to 'adventure pack' content.  This on TOP of the ability to log on and say hi to their old EQLive/SWG guild.

Really, I see the majority of All-Access owners being EQ2 players who want to occasionally log into EQLive/SWG to say hi to guildmates, or to see what the latest changes are, etc.  With the possible exception of Planetside, the games are too much of a time-sink to really play more than one actively.

Alkiera

[shiznitz]

I am inclined to agree that All Access users are probably heavily biased towards EQ2. However, I did play EQ1 and PS at the same time for a few months before I quit EQ1. I am also considering All Access so I can jump into PS occasionally since PS would basically be free with all the EQ2 bennies that come with All Access.

I have no idea how SWG fits into all this. That game is just retarded and I don't understand how anyone likes it.

[jpark]

Somehow, I think SOE would have flaunted these numbers earlier if it was comfortable with them.  There's bullshit in the air.

(I don't normally buy computer mags - but I picked one up with week with WoW receiving game of the year award, and CoH MMORPG of the year.  I had to scour the fine print of nominatios before I finally saw mention of EQ2).

[Evil Elvis]

When you're the top dog, you never acknowledge your competitors.

Just sayin'.

[SirBruce]

Yes. The number is even more dubious than most MMOG subscriber numbers, because it came so soon after release (i.e. not after the free month was up), and because the All-Access Pass can be easily used to hide or inflate the number of people actually subscribed.

No, that's not true at all.  The 310K number came soon after release, but the 325, 330, and 350K numbres have come long after the first free month for the majority of users.

We also know they aren't talking about All-Access Pass users; otherwise, they'd count all EQ1 users as EQ2 users, and they aren't.  They also provide conversion numbers corresponding to this, which wouldn't make much sense since an All Access Pass Holder who never buys the EQ2 box and creates an account would never "convert".
 

The more accurate number is that SOE has a total of over 800,000 accounts between EQ1 and EQ2, SWG, and Planetside.

Accurate, perhaps, but not very precise; the total is lilkely much higher.  Also note that doesn't count multiple subscriptions more than once, so it's not as simple as summing EQ1+EQ2+SWG+PS=800K.

Bruce

[Miasma]

We also know they aren't talking about All-Access Pass users; otherwise, they'd count all EQ1 users as EQ2 users, and they aren't.

First they can't do that because not "all" EQ1 users are on the all-access pass, and second even those that are may not have bought the EQ2 box and entered a product key.  They're not stupid, they wouldn't just pad 300,000 people on to their number.  So their number could absolutely include all-access passes.

No one but sony knows how many all-access pass people there are and which games they have bought the box for, it is just a potentially large variable that renders any subscription number they throw out highly dubious.  Maybe there are only 5,000 people using it so the 350,000 number is accurate, maybe there are 75,000 people who use it and tried out EQ2 at some point but have not played since, who knows.

Incase this is coming off as EQ2 hate I don't think EQ2 has numbers so low they are going to shutdown anytime soon.  No, they have a very healthy number of people playing and will be around for a long, long time.  Everyday a handful of EQ1 people upgrade/buy new computers and most all of them will try EQ2.  I imagine the number of people who quit in disgust is cancelled by the number of new people they have coming in every month.

[SirBruce]

We also know they aren't talking about All-Access Pass users; otherwise, they'd count all EQ1 users as EQ2 users, and they aren't.

First they can't do that because not "all" EQ1 users are on the all-access pass, and second even those that are may not have bought the EQ2 box and entered a product key.  They're not stupid, they wouldn't just pad 300,000 people on to their number.  So their number could absolutely include all-access passes.

Yeah, ignore that part of what I said.  What I was trying to say (and what I've pointed at before) as you didn't see them claiming, for example, PlanetSide had a bunch of subscribers by including All-Access Pass Users.  The point is, we don't know how many All Access Pass folks there are, but if they were willing to inflate EQII's numbers with them, why not inflate PlanetSide's?  Or why not inflate SWG or EQ1 subs with users from the other games?  Yes, not all users of game X are access pass users, but those that are can be counted for every game, and yet you didn't see announcements trumpeting new numbers for those games which they could have done had they recently decided to start including all all-access pass folks.

No one but sony knows how many all-access pass people there are and which games they have bought the box for, it is just a potentially large variable that renders any subscription number they throw out highly dubious.  Maybe there are only 5,000 people using it so the 350,000 number is accurate, maybe there are 75,000 people who use it and tried out EQ2 at some point but have not played since, who knows.

But we also "know" that SOE has said they have over 300K actual subscribers and an 85% conversion rate.  If they were counting such accounts that DIDN'T buy a box, they wouldn't have a conversion rate to even measure.  And this was all clarified at CES anyway.  So I don't see why they'd give a "real" number a few months ago, and then this month just now decided to "inflate" the EQII numbers by counting all access pass folks who didn't buy a box, but not PlanetSide or any other game.

Bruce

[Numtini]

I've been reminding myself of why I am playing WOW not EQ2 and EQ2 has a load of servers and it still seems populated to me. I don't find that number at all hard to believe.

[Soukyan]

It's 350,000 EQ2 subscribers. Yes, EQ1 had more than that... after 3 years live.

[SirBruce]

That's because EQ1 launched in another era. :)

Almost all MMOGs that are comercially published rise rapidly to their (at least initial) peak these days.

Bruce

[HaemishM]

This is a part of every Sony Online Entertainment's press release:

Sony Online Entertainment Inc. (SOE), a subsidiary of Sony Pictures Digital Inc., is a recognized worldwide leader in massively multiplayer online games, with a subscriber base of over 800,000 active accounts around the globe

800,000 active accounts. That's accounts. Through all of their games. It doesn't granulate anything, other than there are somehow 800k subscriptions to at least one of their games. Someone could be a PS sub AND an EQ sub and not have the all-access pass and gets counted twice. Meanwhile, someone could have an all-access pass and be counted either only 1 time, or any number of times between 1 and 4, because the all-access pass could technically mean they have subscriptions to all 4 games. How do we know? We do not, because they really haven't clarified how they are counting those all-access numbers.

The all-access pass is a great way to inflate press releases and excite investors. It also makes any numbers they do release on their games suspect simply because they won't tell you how those all-access numbers are counted.

[WindupAtheist]

So wait, does that mean WoW is singlehandedly spanking SOE's entire stable?   

[HaemishM]

Probably, but they won't release exact subscriber numbers either.

[SirBruce]

I have clarified myself, by actually asking SOE people.  But you won't believe that.

Bruce

[HaemishM]

Not unless they'll go on the fucking public record with pretty exact numbers (like within say 5,000 users or so). Until then, I could just have easily have gotten the numbers from my mother for all the stock I'll put in "Somebody from there told me so."

[Sky]

Blizzard replies to Sony: Err...can't hear you, I've got money in my ear.

WoW is on the bestseller list for both ebgames.com and gamestop.com, listed on the front page as one of five or so bestsellers....out of console and pc titles combined. Yeah, Blizz is even listening to Sony.

As folks have pointed out, EQ2 (assuming these numbers are valid, heh) has garnered a lot of subs in far less time (I won't argue petty semantics) than the original. As others have pointed out, this is a new market to release into, not late 90's with only one large commercial competitor.

EQ2 is getting soundly trounced at the retail counter, I really don't see where they'd tell Blizz anything remotely like "eat me". Funny thread, though.

[MahrinSkel]

If was working at SOE, I wouldn't be satisfied knowing that there were XXXXXX number of All-Access pass holders who *might* be playing any of our games.  I'd want to know which of our games they were *actually* playing, and I expect that I'd find that in any one month, nearly all (90%+) of the AAP subscribers were playing one game nearly exclusively.  And I'd want to know how many, and which games.  So, although a press release *might* lump every AAP player in with the single game subscriptions, I'd have a number that told me how many were actually playing each game.  I might not be able to publicly discuss it, but I probably wouldn't treat it as "Top Secret", either, and have no qualms about letting it slip out to Sir Bruce.

All of this being purely theoretical, since I don't work for SOE.  Bruce's numbers aren't 100% reliable, but they are the best anyone in the industry has got to work with.

--Dave

[HaemishM]

If that is the case, and I highly doubt that it is, that is a sad goddamn commentary on this fucked up little incestuous industry we follow so fondly.

It's bad business, and it leads to cronyism, paid-for-reviews and obfuscates the success of the players in the field. Any researcher worth their salt would shit themselves and roll around in it before they'd give any credence to numbers gained by "emails from people you don't know but I do that say X." Those are not reliable numbers in any field of business except the game industry. It's fucking kindergarden Mickey Mouse bullshit shell games.

[SirBruce]

Not unless they'll go on the fucking public record with pretty exact numbers (like within say 5,000 users or so).

They already did that.

Bruce

[eldaec]

Probably, but they won't release exact subscriber numbers either.

Which is exactly one of the biggest reasons the whole MMOG industry is such a frigging joke.

Can you imagine Toyota, Dell, Sony, any other serious organisation saying to the market, 'Nah, we don't fancy telling you what our sales were like this year'. Pathetic.

[Rasix]

Not sure this has been mentioned here or not but...

classy is not exactly the word that comes to mind.***  Yikes.  Next ad will probably feature something about a higher poly count on EQ2's elven boobs. 

Edit: Yes, this is a departure. I just didn't feel like making a separate topic.

*** Warning, clicking link may induce seizures, vomitting, rectal bleeding, stomach pain, lower back pain, nausea, dry mouth, stabbiness and impotence.  Please consult your doctor before clicking.

[Shockeye]

Not sure this has been mentioned here or not but...

classy is not exactly the word that comes to mind.  Yikes.  Next ad will probably feature something about a higher poly count on EQ2's elven boobs. 

Edit: Yes, this is a departure. I just didn't feel like making a separate topic.

Wow. No pun intended. That IS desperate.

[Sky]

OMG. MY EYES.

Do we really need FOUR flash ads with the same content flashing like a fox nfl game.

And yes, the content. I've never had a problem logging into WoW, I've been playing since the end of November. Way to blow that whole scenario out of proportion (though I admit I'm not on as problematic hardware as some are). Didn't EQ2 have that whole extended downtime thing happen to them, too?

That link needs a photosensitive seizure warning imo.

[HaemishM]

classy is not exactly the word that comes to mind. 

Fucking hell.

[Rasix]

Hmm.. did they already pull them?  Now it seems to be on a DoN set of adds.

[HaemishM]

All I saw was DoN, which was still funny as hell and ugly as sin.

[Rasix]

All I saw was DoN, which was still funny as hell and ugly as sin.

You missed them calling WoW "World of Waiting" or the other add trumpetting all of their new content in EQ2.  The DoN adds are just fuggly, but not quite as embarrassing as a whole.

Edit: Ahh, still there.  On a themed timer for each game.  Those flash adds are murdering my eyes.

[Shockeye]

Hit refresh a few times. Seems they are all on a rotation.

WTG Warcry / SOE!

[Paelos]

I reloaded the page and blacked out briefly from the flash ads. Seriously, it's like Battling Seizure Robots.