mt. gox

[Goumindong]

I don't understand the libertarian lunacy over bitcoin.

Take all the standard libertarian craziness about how they're being held down by the man but they're really Galtian supermen, mix in the idea that the fed is part of the banking conspiracy which makes it possible to siphon money via debt from them, and add in a hefty dose of get rich quick scheme and it should be clear.

Libertarians think that BTC will literally bring down the evil government which is holding them back from being the supermen they know they really are and that they're going to get rich without any work from it.

[Kitsune]

I am completely down with 'frozen' processing power being a commodity that is traded with a value.  The trick is, it has to be processing power that was expended for something useful.  Processing spent on bitcoins doesn't DO anything; it's an electronic circle jerk where the goal of processor time spent on getting a bitcoin has the end result of... getting a bitcoin.  It didn't fold any proteins, didn't search for alien signals, didn't encrypt the Internet to keep it safe from the NSA, it just played a math game with itself.  That's the part that doesn't make sense to me.

[KallDrexx]

Credit cards are not actually *instant* (things can take days to really clear, etc), but the fees and regulatory environment provide enough safety that they can be effectively treated that way.  Bitcoin is *slow*, most clients apparently deal with that by "hoping for the best", and of course once the transaction goes through there's no way to reverse it -- definitely favors the seller, provided the seller is not in a hurry to convert those bitcoins to a more liquid currency.

The full money transfer transaction isn't instant for credit cards sure, but the verification part is instant.  The merchant immediately knows if you have funds available to cover it in your credit or debit account.  This isn't true with bitcoins because a bitcoin transaction needs to be verified by 51% of the nodes before the system knows for sure that it isn't a fraudulent double transfer or spending of money that was already spent.

[Ghambit]

I am completely down with 'frozen' processing power being a commodity that is traded with a value.  The trick is, it has to be processing power that was expended for something useful.  Processing spent on bitcoins doesn't DO anything; it's an electronic circle jerk where the goal of processor time spent on getting a bitcoin has the end result of... getting a bitcoin.  It didn't fold any proteins, didn't search for alien signals, didn't encrypt the Internet to keep it safe from the NSA, it just played a math game with itself.  That's the part that doesn't make sense to me.

You sir, have described the entirety of the American economic system in one short paragraph.

[Quinton]

The full money transfer transaction isn't instant for credit cards sure, but the verification part is instant.  The merchant immediately knows if you have funds available to cover it in your credit or debit account.  This isn't true with bitcoins because a bitcoin transaction needs to be verified by 51% of the nodes before the system knows for sure that it isn't a fraudulent double transfer or spending of money that was already spent.

Again, to be clear, I'm in no way suggesting that bitcoin has this property and I'm not suggesting that bitcoin is a good solution.  ^^

Isn't it, in fact, worse than that? -- since the longest blockchain wins -- I thought technically to be *safe* you'd want to wait for a second or third block past the one with your transaction, but waiting 30 minutes is something nobody does because 10 minutes is already painful.

[Kitsune]

You sir, have described the entirety of the American economic system in one short paragraph.

Well yes, I'm cognizant that the US and all other economies that are no longer backed by precious metals are as inherently valueless as bitcoins.  But if I was designing the digital currency of the future, I'd be trying to base it off of a system that involves a tangible commodity gleaned from the digital currency.

[KallDrexx]

The full money transfer transaction isn't instant for credit cards sure, but the verification part is instant.  The merchant immediately knows if you have funds available to cover it in your credit or debit account.  This isn't true with bitcoins because a bitcoin transaction needs to be verified by 51% of the nodes before the system knows for sure that it isn't a fraudulent double transfer or spending of money that was already spent.

Again, to be clear, I'm in no way suggesting that bitcoin has this property and I'm not suggesting that bitcoin is a good solution.  ^^

Isn't it, in fact, worse than that? -- since the longest blockchain wins -- I thought technically to be *safe* you'd want to wait for a second or third block past the one with your transaction, but waiting 30 minutes is something nobody does because 10 minutes is already painful.

Yeah I get that, just talking about what part I meant when I was referring to credit cards as instant :).

And yeah, you are correct about being safe waiting longer.

[Merusk]

You sir, have described the entirety of the American economic system in one short paragraph.

Well yes, I'm cognizant that the US and all other economies that are no longer backed by precious metals are as inherently valueless as bitcoins. 

Except that they're backed by lots of guns and police authority where bitcoins are backed by the inherent trustworthiness of Magic: The Gathering and Reddit nerds.

[KallDrexx]

Except that they're backed by lots of guns and police authority where bitcoins are backed by the inherent trustworthiness of Magic: The Gathering and Reddit nerds.

You forgot the Winklevoss twins as well 

[tazelbain]

How is mt. gox related to mtg?

[schild]

Used to be a site for tracking the prices of Magic cards.

(Edit: Sort've, it was more of a free market for them)

[calapine]

"Mt. Gox is a Bitcoin exchange based in Tokyo, Japan. Mt. Gox was established in 2009 as a trading card exchange,[1] but rebranded itself in 2010 as a Bitcoin business"

Magic The Gathering Online Exchange

[Trippy]

Supposed Mt. Gox was originally a site to sell Magic the Gathering cards (it's name is based on that: Magic: The Gathering Online eXchange). However there's no proof it actually sold any cards through it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AMt.Gox#Possible_citogenesis_concerning_whether_MtGox_ever_hosted_an_MtG_trading_site

[Goumindong]

You sir, have described the entirety of the American economic system in one short paragraph.

Well yes, I'm cognizant that the US and all other economies that are no longer backed by precious metals are as inherently valueless as bitcoins.  But if I was designing the digital currency of the future, I'd be trying to base it off of a system that involves a tangible commodity gleaned from the digital currency.

The fact that the currency doesn't have a commodity backing is a good thing*. Processing power used to fold proteins or whatnot isn't a commodity and the logic which is used to support such a scheme doesn't have anything to do with "real asset backing" but simple utility arguments in the vein of "Dig a ditch/fill it up could just as easily dig canals"

*If there was an actual commodity tied to the system, one that you could trade, then this would imply a minimum value for the currency. Basically, take gold for instance. Gold currently has industrial applications but the applications aren't worth nearly as much as the trade value. What would happen to an economy which traded on gold, if all of a sudden someone discovered an industrial application of gold which was worth more than the trade value? Answer: Bedlam

[Merusk]

Better question: What happens to a commodity market if suddenly there is zero demand for that commodity.  There's shitloads of gold out there in the universe.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jul/17/science/la-sci-sn-gold-universe-colliding-neutron-stars-astronomers-20130717

Neutron stars too distant for you? It's been theorized, but not yet proven, that the asteroid belt is what accounts for all of Earth's gold anyway, and we'll find oodles of it there.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/21/us-space-mining-asteroids-idUSBRE9AK0JF20131121

[squirrel]

I am completely down with 'frozen' processing power being a commodity that is traded with a value.  The trick is, it has to be processing power that was expended for something useful.  Processing spent on bitcoins doesn't DO anything; it's an electronic circle jerk where the goal of processor time spent on getting a bitcoin has the end result of... getting a bitcoin.  It didn't fold any proteins, didn't search for alien signals, didn't encrypt the Internet to keep it safe from the NSA, it just played a math game with itself.  That's the part that doesn't make sense to me.

Not entirely true! It turned a bunch of potentially useful electricity into waste heat! For no useful reason. It not only has no intrinsic value, but a good argument could be made that it is of negative value. Truly the currency commodity of the future!

[Chimpy]

Better question: What happens to a commodity market if suddenly there is zero demand for that commodity.  There's shitloads of gold out there in the universe.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jul/17/science/la-sci-sn-gold-universe-colliding-neutron-stars-astronomers-20130717

Neutron stars too distant for you? It's been theorized, but not yet proven, that the asteroid belt is what accounts for all of Earth's gold anyway, and we'll find oodles of it there.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/21/us-space-mining-asteroids-idUSBRE9AK0JF20131121

Diamonds are plentiful, and even gem quality stones are able to be made on an industrial scale for tiny fractions of the price paid for at a jeweler. But DeBeers has sucessfully used marketing and price fixing (they are a cartel, after all) to make people believe that they are somehow precious and not able to be resold.

So basically, as long as you have the power to set a price and then flood the masses with advertising it doesn't matter what the "real" value is.

[Yegolev]

Real value for a thing is what people will pay for it.

[Khaldun]

You know, bitcoin is one of those things that I somehow just can't really be arsed to fully understand even though there are many reasons why I should, but one thing I'm sure about them is that whatever happens to them and the people who invest in them, all I really hope is that the Winklevoss twins end up completely ruined at the end of it. Maybe even we get lucky there will be something legally actionable when the dust settles?

[Ironwood]

All I know is that when people start trying to get you to invest in something, it's about to crash.  As seemed to happen here....

[tazelbain]

I love the parallels between Bitcoin and EvE's banking.  Libertarian finances systems are a scamers dream.

[KallDrexx]

Speaking of Bitcoin shenanigans 

[Jeff Kelly]

Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme by design. It's an inherently deflationary currency so once all of the blocks are mined and the supply of bitcoins doesn't increase anymore the existing coins will rise in value more and more if there is demand and if Bitcoin shall function as a currency and is used as such there will always be some baseline demand. This means that the early adopters and early investors will get more and more wealthy.

[schild]

Speaking of Bitcoin shenanigans 

"Users who put their coins into cold storage will be contacted by Flexcoin and asked to verify their identity,"

lol

[Ironwood]

Jesus fucking Christ.

[HaemishM]

It's a great example of why internet libertarians shouldn't be allowed to run anything.

No, no, they SHOULD be allowed to run it so that their pipe dreams can fail so spectacularly they swallow up all the other complete fucking idiots with them.

[Furiously]

Bitcoins are like Amway, they made the early adopters rich but everyone after is chasing a pipe dream.

^^^^^^
7000x this.

[Phildo]

Heh, a woman tried to recruit me for Amway last year.  She was super-positive and never mentioned the name of the company once.  She was selling a "marketing business."  It's all web reselling now.

[KallDrexx]

[Jeff Kelly]

Thanks Kal, I was looking for exactly that picture myself

[Chimpy]

Heh, a woman tried to recruit me for Amway last year.  She was super-positive and never mentioned the name of the company once.  She was selling a "marketing business."  It's all web reselling now.

Amway changed the name of most of their stuff to Quixtar a few years ago to get rid of some of the stigma. They also train their users to call it "the business".

My dad is big into Amway, unfortunately. Of course he is somewhat of a libertarian which is funny considering that he has been a federal employee for over 40 years.   

[Phildo]

I only listened to her in the first place because she was a pretty blonde and she pitched it as a marketing job, when I was definitely in the market for a new workplace.

[Merusk]

So basically, as long as you have the power to set a price and then flood the masses with advertising it doesn't matter what the "real" value is.

Yes, I know. Now tell that to the gold bugs and try to get them to apply that to currency because they like to believe money is worthless because it's not attached to anything "real."

Speaking of Bitcoin shenanigans 

Imma explode from all this schadenfreude.

[Paelos]

My firm has several clients that do Amway. I handle none of them for obvious reasons.

[IainC]

Schadenfreude