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Author Topic: Need a recommendation  (Read 6674 times)
Goumindong
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Reply #35 on: October 25, 2013, 03:18:54 PM

No lie, Janna carried me to Plat.

http://www.lolking.net/guides/192121
Nebu
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Reply #36 on: October 28, 2013, 06:50:29 AM

So... played Janna a bunch and then bought Sona.  I find that I'm quite effective on Sona and her Ult can be a game changer when you catch 2 or 3 enemy champs in it.  Is it the mobility that makes Janna so much better?  Her snare?  I find that her ult is tough to make good use of because a) melee bitch if you bounce anyone away and b) people tend to run out of the heal almost immediately. 

I'm guessing that Sona is better for low elo players and Janna is better for higher skill, coordinated groups?  Am I getting warm?

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Margalis
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Reply #37 on: October 28, 2013, 07:53:14 AM

Sona sees more play in competitive play right now. It's hard to use Janna's ult effectively sometimes, and you can bone your team by using it at the wrong time. I don't know that I'd say that either is better, it really depends on the lane matchup and overall team compositions. Janna has the best disengage in the game but no initiation, so if that fits the team that's good.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Druzil
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Reply #38 on: October 28, 2013, 08:16:37 AM

Yeah so pretty sure ARAM has ruined my laning ability.  Been doing nothing but ARAM for awhile now just for the shorter games, tried a rift game the other day and got crushed.  Guess I need to practice my laning again, not used to all the assassins.
Nebu
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Reply #39 on: October 28, 2013, 08:50:37 AM

Assassins do seem pretty strong.  The guys I play with all claim that it's something being addressed for the next season. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Goumindong
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Reply #40 on: October 28, 2013, 03:51:27 PM

So... played Janna a bunch and then bought Sona.  I find that I'm quite effective on Sona and her Ult can be a game changer when you catch 2 or 3 enemy champs in it.  Is it the mobility that makes Janna so much better?  Her snare?  I find that her ult is tough to make good use of because a) melee bitch if you bounce anyone away and b) people tend to run out of the heal almost immediately. 

I'm guessing that Sona is better for low elo players and Janna is better for higher skill, coordinated groups?  Am I getting warm?

Sona is actually just kinda bad at the moment at all ELO's and in competitive play.  That isn't to say that there aren't situations in which Sona is very effective, they're just few and far between.

E.G. Head over to lolking and look at the highest win ratio champions. Weekly for Ranked Janna is number 1 for Silver, Gold, and Platinum, Second for Diamond(tied with Nidalee), and third for Bronze. Janna is (almost) never beat for win rate in Solo queue by any other support at any skill level.


Sonas primary advantage is that she can win lane really hard. And, if you're paired with an ADC which also wins lane really hard and pushes towers (and you both know this and push towers and your team is OK with you rotating and taking more towers) then she can be very effective. He weakness is that outside of laning phase she does nothing except ult and her ult isn't even that good and she gets countered by the enemy top and jungle 90% of the time and she has no personal defense so she gets dumpstered on by assassins... If she loses laning phase (because for instance your ADC picks an ADC who gets beat by theirs or your ADC gets counter picked or you pick Sona first letting the enemy pick Draven/Varus to nullify your strong ADC chocies) then you're in big trouble

E.G. C9 vs TSM at NA Regional finals. Sona straight up turned all three games into 4v5's once laning was over.

The thing that makes Janna so much better is that Janna

1) Peels: Especially coupled with her .9 AP scaling shield. In a meta that is largely composed of picking an assassin or two and blowing up the ADC/APC being able to stop that with massive shields very 6 seconds, a huge AoE Heal and knockback is really valuable.

2) The best free stat in the game: Global Move Speed Buff. This helps everyone else win their lane. Its 2 free move speed quints. Everyone on your team has the engage advantage in matchups where this is determined by move speed. Most importantly your jungler will almost always get to where he is going faster than the other guy

3) W is so strong you don't need boots, saving you about 1000 gold over other supports... Gold which can go into AP and CDR to make your shields more redonkulous.

If i am playing Janna lategame my ADC effectively has two health bars. He has 1600-1800 HP from his normal HP and he has 1000 heal from Heal and Ult plus 600-800 HP from at least two shields
Nebu
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Reply #41 on: October 29, 2013, 08:47:13 AM

Thanks a lot for taking the time Goumindong.  I really appreciate your insight.

What do you think about Lulu?  I really like her kit, but wonder about her viability. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
luckton
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Reply #42 on: October 29, 2013, 09:18:54 AM

Lulu is one of those "well shit, they banned my main support" champs.  She plays well, and getting off the trick shots can be harsh, but then for the skill it takes to do them, you could play a champ that takes the same amount of skill that offers more bang for the buck.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Goumindong
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Reply #43 on: October 29, 2013, 10:57:31 AM

Thanks a lot for taking the time Goumindong.  I really appreciate your insight.

What do you think about Lulu?  I really like her kit, but wonder about her viability. 

I probably over exaggerate how weak Sona is. If you're good with her, or understand what you have to do to win with her there is nothing wrong with a Sona. However, she fits into so few team compositions, and importantly is weak against so many team compositions that i find her way more situational than any other support. In lane she is super super strong if your ADC is stronger than theirs because Sona's Q, Powerchord, and bonus damage allow you to leverage the strengths of your ADC. On the other hand, if your ADC is weaker than theirs you've got nothing to stop a hard engage(Sona is also very easy to gank) and nothing to start a hard engage except a 2 second slow that neuters your damage. This makes the lane super swingy.

That being said: She will probably get a lot stronger in Season 4 because it looks like they're making changes to supports that mean your ADC winning the laning phase is more important. Since Sona wins the laning phase this will let her carry on an advantage gained into the mid/lategame and could shore up some of her weaknesses of "being the squishiest champion in the game while also having terrible range" by raw item advantage.

A lot of people like her a lot (she got played a whole bunch in the recent Wolrd Championships... and did shitty every time... and still got picked) but I am not one of those people.

Re: Lulu. I like Lulu a lot but am not that great with her and i think that Nami is slightly better than her in general.

So some more general supporty stuff because at the moment, supports are really well designed conceptually (with the exception of Taric)

There are roughly 3 things you can do in lane, and 2 things you can do outside of lane. In lane you can be poke/stustain, counter engage, or hard engage or some mix of these with Sona, Janna, and Leona representing each role and their counters pretty firmly (that is, Sona counters Janna in lane, Janna counters Leona, Leona counters Sona). Outside of lane you can be disengage or engage. Supports are a combination of these with each one doing some aspect of each better/differently.

Janna is the queen of anti-assassin disengage but weak to an AoE bull rush engage. This is because against one or two divers into your back line she can easily separate them from their team and keep your squishy targets alive. But against, say, Amumu she is either caught in his AoE or too far away to knock him away. If the enemy team is running a wombo combo team that starts with a mummy ult then your only hope as Janna is that you can channel your ult through it and don't get stunned. Nami on the other hand doesn't have this weakness. Her disengage is a straight line. She can stand outside of Amumu's range and still prevent their back line from following up his ult. But against assassins she has to hope to hit her bubble (which is really hard against dashs/blinks) and can't knock anyone away (just up) with her ult which makes her much weaker.

So Janna is Counterengage in lane, disengage in team fights. Nami is poke/sustain in lane (with good engage potential) and disengage in team fights. Sona is poke/sustain in lane, engage out of lane. Leona is engage/engage. Alistar is engage/disengage. Annie is poke(engage)/engage. Zyra is poke(engage)/disengage. Lulu is a poke/counter engage in lane and counter dive in team fights. Kinda like a mix between Nami's laning (without the sustain) and Janna's disengage. I think that this makes her slightly weaker than Nami or Janna in general, but if you're in a situation when you need to win lane and the enemy has assassins you won't be able to stop with Nami then she is a great pickup. She is also mechanically easier to play than Nami which can be valuable

Importantly Lulu is one of the only supports who can straight 1v2 carry a lane. Well not totally, but because she has such high early consistent damage Lulu is the best "solo fighter" of all the supports. Sona will come in and Q+Power Chord you for 120+ damage at level 1 but after that she only has auto attacks and her auto attacks are kinda weak relative to her strength. Sona wants to poke you then get back out of range till her poke is up again. Lulu's doesn't do as much burst but at level 1 she gets 9 bonus magic damage per auto attack. At level 3 she gets 21.  That adds up fast. But only if you remember that you auto attack harder than most ADC's until they buy and so keep up the auto attack harass.

The hardest i have ever been beaten in lane and similarly the hardest i have ever been carried by a support was with Lulu's. Hardest beaten was actually two games in a row against the same Draven/Lulu team. Fuck that lane seriously just Christ fuck painful fucking ow. Draven is the king of early consistent damage (even post nerf) and so is Lulu. So if you get into their auto range you're taking 30-40% of your HP in burst then they're going to follow it up. Was worse because i had cait both times (who didn't realize that Draven beats cait). Hardest i've ever been carried was by a Lulu as I was playing varus. We contest their blue and she steals it. Walks into lane with blue buff and level 1.9 just 1v2's as i CS and throw out some free harass when its valuable. We take tower early and she roams mid while I CS and does the same thing there.
ezrast
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Reply #44 on: October 30, 2013, 02:56:36 AM

Stealing kills and going into AP support murder mode with Lulu is incredibly fun. Not necessarily the most effective, but fun. I feel bad for liking her because her design is so clumsy - most overloaded kit of any support - but somehow it all works.
Nebu
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Reply #45 on: October 30, 2013, 09:31:00 AM

Spent yesterday playing a lot of Lulu and found her to be very fun.  I may buy her just for solo ranked as she can carry a lane when the ADC turns out to be worthless. If I eat a loss, at least I'll have fun doing it. 

I'm also planning to spend more time on Janna.  Her ult is amazing.  I just need practice in best utilizing it.

I really love playing support and currently own Blitz, Janna, Soraka, Taric, Sona, and Lulu (soon).  Should I also buy Nami?  Any others you recommend?  Lux was the first character I ever bought and I have the most games on her.  I've played her as support a few times and found her to be useful.

Keep in mind, I'm no pro...not by a long shot.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
HaemishM
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Reply #46 on: October 30, 2013, 09:35:20 AM

Leona is a good support and I like Nami though she seems to require a good bit of skill for those early lane pokes.

Nebu
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Reply #47 on: October 30, 2013, 11:42:13 AM

Leona is a good support and I like Nami though she seems to require a good bit of skill for those early lane pokes.

I'll check her out.  Thanks!

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Goumindong
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Reply #48 on: October 30, 2013, 06:35:37 PM

Spent yesterday playing a lot of Lulu and found her to be very fun.  I may buy her just for solo ranked as she can carry a lane when the ADC turns out to be worthless. If I eat a loss, at least I'll have fun doing it. 

I'm also planning to spend more time on Janna.  Her ult is amazing.  I just need practice in best utilizing it.

I really love playing support and currently own Blitz, Janna, Soraka, Taric, Sona, and Lulu (soon).  Should I also buy Nami?  Any others you recommend?  Lux was the first character I ever bought and I have the most games on her.  I've played her as support a few times and found her to be useful.

Keep in mind, I'm no pro...not by a long shot.

The strongest supports at the moment are

Blitz, Janna, Sona, Lulu, Nami, Leona, Zyra(despite nerfs), fiddlesticks, and Annie.

Taric and Soraka are kinda bad. Soraka is like Sona in that she has a very strong laning phase. Then laning phase ends and you're like Sona except without the AoE Stun, bonus armor/damage, and peel. Taric better as a bruiser than as a support anymore. (no AoE CC, little peel)

Basically there isn't a reason to play Soraka if you can play Sona (well not quite, Roka is also good in really really hard sustain siege comps and if you're playing that against a Sona, go ahead because Roka beats Sona in Lane). Similarly there isn't a reason to play Taric when you can play Leona. Leona is the ultimate "win lane or nothing" champion but fortunately she has all the tools to win lane against any champion. Basically Leona's passive works out, on a full rotation, to be about equal to a free level appropriate ultimate of base damage. No one out damages her in lane. No one can swing a team fight as hard with well timed aggression

Zyra has a great AA animation good AA range, and a lot of free damage. Her ult makes her really good.

Annie has the best AoE stun in the game. Its not only the fastest cast animation of any stun, but also the fastest effect time. Oh and that isn't her ult. Her ult is the second fastest AoE stun in the game. Annie has the second best auto attack range in the game at 625 [cait is 650] which makes it really easy to auto harass enemy supports/ADCs. Gets a stun and damage at level 1. Can easily keep it charged by pressing e

Fiddles has a 3 second fear and CAW CAW CAW on his side. In all reality fiddles can solo win a lane at level 1 by getting an advantageous E bounce (max 1 e damage with 0 AP =130 against one target, 195 against the other). Fiddles with CDR plus another strong single target disabler can nearly perma disable someone. Fiddles+Rammus is a war crime against anyone who gets caught
Margalis
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Reply #49 on: October 30, 2013, 10:21:23 PM

With Nami if you can land an auto-attack with E first (or have your AD do it) it makes landing bubble much much easier.

The main issue with Nami is that she is very dependent on landing bubble, which can be hard against a lot of popular champions. I like playing Nami but generally I don't pick her unless I've seen a decent amount of their team and they aren't that evasive.

Nami lanes can absolutely crush once they get ahead. For example you cast E on your stealthed Twitch, he unstealths and starts attacking, then you land bubble thanks to the slow. Her E makes it hard for opponents to disengage, so if you are already ahead you can force fights.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Draegan
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Reply #50 on: October 31, 2013, 06:58:40 AM

Sona is amazing because she's free stats for your team and her ult is a game changing if you're good with it.

Late to the party, but here are my recommendations:

Top: Jax, Renekton
Junglers: Elise, Vi, J4
Mids: Orianna, Ahri, Katarina, Nidalee, Fizz, Khazix, Gragas
ADC: Caitlyn, Vayne, Jinx, Corki - (Jinx just got nerfed, but her late game wasn't touched much)
Typical Support: janna, Sona, Nami, Soraka, Thresh, Blitz
Kill Lane Supports: New Heimer, Annie, Leona

(Support Annie is a new thing that I've been seeing. I'm just starting to use her a bit.)

I really like Orianna and Nidallee in the mid lane. When the new season starts, supports are going to be completely different. Rylai's/Liandrys Soraka is going to be amazing. Big heals, and big slows.

edit:
I don't recommend you play Fiddlestick unless you buy the party sticks skin. Only acceptable version imo. ;)
I also forgot abotu Zyra, she's fun too, but is on the advanced side of things.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 07:00:22 AM by Draegan »
Nebu
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Reply #51 on: October 31, 2013, 07:37:35 AM

Played quite a bit last night.  Heimer is insane early with the changes.  Having 3 turrets out early causes all kinds of trouble.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Nebu
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Reply #52 on: November 04, 2013, 09:09:51 AM

Question: I really like the kit that Leona has but find her a challenge to play against a lane with good poke.  I played several matches with her last night as support and had a rough time knowing when to be aggressive against ranged adc and support.  I've watched a few videos, but they make Leona appear far tankier than I found her to be and my support rune page is loaded with armor and magic resists.  Any suggestions?

Also: What do you guys think about other bubblers as support in the upcoming season?  Morgana, Lux, or Karma for example... I own and play all 3.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Draegan
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Reply #53 on: November 04, 2013, 09:24:06 AM

With Leona, the key is to be on point with your ADC. If you can both be aggressive then you can do really well. Otherwise, the key is zoning out your opponent or baiting them into the river for a gank.

In S4, I have no idea, but I have a feeling that we'll see more unconventional supports. They nerfed a lot of the damage on some support champs, but we'll see how some of these champs scale in a full game. For example, how well will Soraka heal? Putting a Rylai's on her starfall?

Karma is seen more in mid/top and every once in a while in the jungle, than support. Lux and Morgana are gonna be interested when they can get gold int he support. I think you'll see more damage from supports than before.

Just looking at the PBE numbers, Janna loses AP damage, but receives a huge AD buff on her shield. Sona got nerfed. The rest saw damage decrease on their damage abilities.
ezrast
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Reply #54 on: November 04, 2013, 04:30:28 PM

Like I mentioned in the other thread, I'm also in the market for a new support. Right now, my laning phase is kind of shitty: I don't win exchanges and I'm not great at zoning. The only lanes I win against competent opposition are when I get carried by a Vayne or Ezreal with killer mechanics. I make up for it by being good at warding and using Lulu's amazing potential to swing fights in the mid- and late-game, but I'd really like to learn to carry a lane a little better. Is there a support whose zoning/trading fundamentals are really obvious, yet still not too punishing when I fuck them up? Or is Lulu as good as it gets for that?
Goumindong
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Reply #55 on: November 04, 2013, 04:39:28 PM

Sona.

Max Q. Press Q, auto enemy.

Press W to heal
ezrast
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Reply #56 on: November 04, 2013, 05:04:51 PM

I whiff every. Damn. Crescendo.

Oh well, time to buck up and learn I guess.
Margalis
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Reply #57 on: November 04, 2013, 09:32:25 PM

Leona is hard to play. If you are out of synch with your AD or you get behind you can die a lot. It's also not obvious what to max. She gets a lot of tankiness from W, so if you don't feel tanky either put points into W or use it more effectively.

I don't think many people will agree with this but Sona has a high skill ceiling. That doesn't mean it's hard to play her effectively, but that the difference between an ok and good Sona is pretty large. In particular having the right power chord available at the right time and using it effectively. The slow powerchord is very important.

She has no escape or hard CC until 6, so against certain lanes and junglers not dying takes some getting used to. I don't pick her into Blitz because one Blitz hook is death, and if I pick her into something like Leona, Thresh or Taric I do my best to maintain brush control with pinks. I pick her into kill lanes because I'm good with her and feel comfortable doing that, but she's very vulnerable to all-ins in general.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Draegan
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Reply #58 on: November 05, 2013, 07:22:42 AM

Those Crescendos are definitely something people completely ignore and don't utilize properly. Including myself, in S4 Sona with a Tear is going to be awesome as a support.

I actually had my first Leona game last night. I didn't do too well, gave up a few kills in lane, but I went 2/0/2 with my adc. We got tower eventually but their ez got slightly ahead of my vayne early but my vayne outfarmed him into mid game.

Fun champ.

I don't see many Lulu's these days. She was played top actually for a month or so as some pros were messing around with an AD version. I really enjoy playing a Soraka in a sustain lane.

I also just got gifted Forecast Janna last night. So I suppose I need to play more Janna now.
Nebu
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Reply #59 on: November 05, 2013, 08:15:17 AM

I played Lux and Morgana for my first 15 levels.  Both were great training for other skill shot champs.  I am confident with crescendo and have landed it well in team fights.  That's the funny thing.  I do very well in team fights.  It's the laning phase that seems to give me fits.  

Perhaps my ADC's and I aren't on the same page.  I can do well to poke and create space, but when I try to set up a gank I tend to be out of position for my ADC to get their attacks off quickly.  I do notice that many of the adc's I get paired with are quite tentative in their play.  I'm not sure if I'm the one that isn't seeing opportunities or they aren't being aggressive enough when I try to set up something for them.  For the record, I ward well and rarely get caught by the jungler.  Usually my early deaths occur because my ADC is so intent on cs that he doesn't jump on the opportunity to catch the enemy out of position.  Perhaps that will improve when I hit the 30 queue.

My current solution is to play Blitzcrank.  I can pull people to my ADC and let him kill them during the knock up.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 08:27:58 AM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Rasix
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Reply #60 on: November 05, 2013, 09:19:50 AM

That is a good plan.  If you're not playing draft, you'll get him every time.  He was, when I played, a near perma-ban in low ELO.  He's a terror for people that can't dodge shit.

However, if you get behind or they pick really tanky champs, you may have issues.  Blitz is fun, though.  You'll never lack that.

-Rasix
HaemishM
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Reply #61 on: November 05, 2013, 10:22:54 AM

Blitz is still perma-banned in ranked because at that skill level, he is just a difference maker. The bans I'm seeing these days in the shit end of the scale are Blitz/Amumu/Malphite (if the banners are smart) with a mixture of Fizz/Yi/Shen/Jinx and some other odd ones thrown in.

Rasix
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Reply #62 on: November 05, 2013, 10:25:24 AM

Blitz/Amumu/Malph is the triforce of low elo bans. Shen is usually included, but can slip through.   Blitz/Malph have been low ELO permabans since season 2. 

-Rasix
HaemishM
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Prevent all damage that would be dealt to you and other troops you control.


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Reply #63 on: November 05, 2013, 10:28:05 AM

It's always funny when someone doesn't ban Amumu and then gets bitchy when the other team gets him and melts faces. At that skill level, there is no good goddamn reason to have him on the field. He is that good... at that skill level. Blitz is the same way. Malphite and Shen used to be but aren't so much anymore.

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