Magic: The Combattening - Hearthstone

[dusematic]

I've been having good success against them with Mage.

[Rasix]

Turn 7 flamestrike. WEEEEEEE.   

[Jeff Kelly]

Nice, just when you think there's nothing that can enrage you, you are proven wrong.

- cards with the caption 'do x when a minion does y' can be cast on your opponent's minions. I found this out the hard way when a paladin cast two blessings of wisdom (draw a card when this minion attacks) on my minions while I controlled the board basically making me draw cards for him. This shouldn't be possible.

- dispel and silence remove enrage, taunt and most battle cry effects making taunt even more of a useless mechanic as it already is

- freezing and other incapacitating effects as a mechanic are useless because they don't prevent your opponent from using hero powers or most minions from using their powers. They only prevent from attacking. So there's basically nothing you can do to prevent a hunter from using his 'deal two damage to an enemy hero' power.

[Rokal]

I don't know if it would be possible to write a post that was more wrong than that one Jeff Kelly.

[Jeff Kelly]

Oh and hunters are completely broken.

- change a minion's health to 1: 0 mana
- when your hero gets attacked deal 2 damage to all enemy units: 2 mana
- deal 3 damage, when a beast is out deal 5 damage: 3 mana
- remove all enemy stealth effects and all enemy secrets: 1 mana
- destroy an enemy minion: 3 mana
- for each enemy minion summon 1 1/1 hound with charge: 2 mana
- deal two damage: 1 mana
- deal 5 damage to one enemy and 2 to adjacent: 5 mana
- look at the top three cards of your deck select one, discard others: 1 mana
- all other beasts have +1 attack: 1 mana

Etc.

Plus hero power: deal two damage to enemy hero: 2 mana. Can't be blocked by anything

[Jeff Kelly]

I'm wrong all the time, you'll have to narrow it down for me.

[Ingmar]

The thing about it that struck me is that removing interactions like the Blessing of Wisdom thing you describe, and stuff like silence, will make the game even less interactive and interesting than it already is. The game doesn't need *more* streamlining.

[Jeff Kelly]

that doesn't make it less broken.

[Ingmar]

I don't think either of those interactions/effects are broken - frustrating to deal with, maybe, but not broken. BoW being able to be used as *very* soft removal, that's not a particularly big deal I don't think.

As for silence, it's a mechanic that rides herd on other things to stop them from becoming broken themselves, there's nothing broken about the mechanic inherently. It's sort of the opposite of broken.

[Jeff Kelly]

take blessing of wisdom for example: it's a 1 mana card which already is great value since you get at least one card out of it. playing it on an enemy minion will give you one card plus it will pretty much mean that your opponent has to kill or sacrifice that minion to not give you even more equity.

It's bad enough when such an effect is on a minion your opponent played because you'll have to remove it from play but when he can play it on your cards it's even worse because you'll now have to counter your own minion.

[Rasix]

You could always silence it. 

[Jeff Kelly]

Well I disagree, but not on a 'this single card/mechanic is broken' level so not sure how to express what bugs me.

[Paelos]

I had a hunter think he had me over a barrell on my mage with about 5 health left. He had 3 things on the board, but I had one beserker, and a flamestrike.

He kept "well played" spamming me over and over thinking he had it in the bag, even though he had like 11 health. I turned it on him at the last turn by pulling a healing card on one of my draw a card draws, healing, shooting my zerker with a fireball, and beating him.

That felt good. I hate well played spammers, but I leave it on for those moments.

[Ingmar]

take blessing of wisdom for example: it's a 1 mana card which already is great value since you get at least one card out of it. playing it on an enemy minion will give you one card plus it will pretty much mean that your opponent has to kill or sacrifice that minion to not give you even more equity.

Er - how is the paladin forcing you to attack with the minion and thus give you cards? I'm not saying it isn't a strong play, but you're describing it like you're obligated to attack with this creature, where you aren't, in most circumstances. You can make it be a simple 1 for 1, granted a pretty efficient one.

[schild]

He kept "well played" spamming me over and over thinking he had it in the bag, even though he had like 11 health. I turned it on him at the last turn by pulling a healing card on one of my draw a card draws, healing, shooting my zerker with a fireball, and beating him.

Don't you play Poker? How the fuck are you enjoying Hearthstone? Or are you just playing it for the nut draw and hoping for that every game?

[Jeff Kelly]

not being able to attack is a pretty great debuff.

If I use the minion normally my opponent gets a card each time I attack. If I debuff the blessing away I just wasted a debuff on a 1 mana card. If I sacrifice my minion he traded one of my minions and got a card out of it for 1 mana. If I don't use the minion he just disabled one of my minions.

Basically it makes me contribute to the enemy's card advantage or spend my own mana to prevent it potentially wasting a minion on a less effective play.  played this way makes the card to strong for the cost.

[Paelos]

He kept "well played" spamming me over and over thinking he had it in the bag, even though he had like 11 health. I turned it on him at the last turn by pulling a healing card on one of my draw a card draws, healing, shooting my zerker with a fireball, and beating him.

Don't you play Poker? How the fuck are you enjoying Hearthstone? Or are you just playing it for the nut draw and hoping for that every game?

I do play poker. I don't really treat this game like that at all. It's more just a 30m session while I'm watching baseball. I play ranked, but I don't take this seriously.

I'm mostly just playing it because I like collecting the different cards in packs.

[Ingmar]

Not being able to attack makes it essentially a 1 for 1. 1 for 1 trades are like the backbone of every card game ever. Yes, it's a tempo advantage because he probably paid less for his BoW than you did for your creature, but again, that's not unusual in a removal spell. Plus you still have the capability to throw it at him or a minion if you're desperate or the card draw can't help him much. It's hardly broken. If BoW is broken, how much more broken is a card that just kills the minion without giving you an option for how to deal with it?

[schild]

so broken

2/10 'dies to doom blade'

[Jeff Kelly]

How is it a one on one trade? One card for one card? If the value of the cards in question isn't equal it can't be one to one.

And yes a 'kill a minion' class card that not even everyone potentially has access to and only costs 3 mana is even more broken. It all ties back into the discussion started by Schild and J Cee that's why I really don't want to argue about individual cards. They simply amplify what's wrong with the fundamentals of the game.

[Ingmar]

Yes, that's what a 1 for 1 trade means.

Some concepts I suggest you review, they will make you a better player of any game like this, even Hearthstone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_advantage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempo_(Magic:_The_Gathering)

Trading 1 card for 1 card is almost never broken. There's really no 'but the cards aren't equal in value!' A card is a card, and if you have bad cards in your deck you should get rid of them. You'll get a lot farther treating a card as a card rather than thinking 'ugh he used his crappy blessing to negate my awesome giant creature!'

I will say that apparently what might be broken about BoW is the fact that it leaves the creature sitting around on the board afterwards means that it lets the defending player hurt themselves by making bad decisions about how to deal with it.

[Jeff Kelly]

So now we're essentially at the 'you're a noob so don't qq' stage of the argument? Nice.

[Merusk]

Sometimes - not nearly as often as its invoked but sometimes - that's a valid argument.

This mechanic has been in every card game of this sort, ever.  Your complaint boils down to; "It's not fair that the other player can put cards that grants advantage to him on my cards."  M:TG has this, Jihad had it, Star Wars CCG had it.  

In this specific instance it's a clever use of a mechanic others might never have thought of.  It certainly threw you off game enough to stick this much of a hair up your ass about it.

[Ingmar]

So now we're essentially at the 'you're a noob so don't qq' stage of the argument? Nice.

No? I was not being sarcastic, those concepts will be an enormous help to you as a player. The way you're thinking about card 'value' is something that is going to hold you back.

But anyway, think through the situations that you get with BoW:

I put it on your creature, you never attack with it. Assuming the creature has no other effects, we've traded a card for a card. I get a minor advantage in mana spent depending on how expensive your creature was.

I put it on your creature, you attack me and I draw a card. You just gave me a 2 for 1 at the cost of a little damage to me.

I put it on your creature, you attack and trade with one of my creatures, I draw a card. We're even on that exchange; you lose 1 card, I lose 2 cards and draw another one. 2 for 2.

I put it on your creature, you use a card to kill the effect and get to go back to using your creature. 1 for 1, your silence-type card for my BoW.

I put it on your creature, you for some reason use a card to kill your own creature. 2 for 1, don't do that.

Most of these are 1 for 1 trades, a card for a card or two cards for two cards. They're not hurting you nearly as badly as you think, unless you make one of the choices that gives your opponent a 2 for 1 or better trade.

EDIT: We're also setting aside that it's only of value for me to put it on your creature if it is one you'd want to attack with anyway. I can't use it to stop a taunter, I can't use it to stop guys who buff other creatures or your spell power, etc., etc. It's a pretty narrow bit of 'removal' to use it that way.

[Jeff Kelly]

It's patronizing but whatever. It was a mistake by me to discuss it on the level of individual cards anyway.

If HS gave me nearly as much to deal with that kind of situations as MtG or Jihad I wouldn't complain. It doesn't though. The limited deck makes tempo and card advantage so important and yet the game gives you so few ways to regain it or defend it against an aggro deck.

If that makes my complaints seem 'newbish' then so be it. To me though the game feels very limited while others feel like you have lots of options at your disposal. I'm not forced to play though but I'd really like a decent tablet-ready deck building game with depth. HS doesn't feel like it.

[schild]

No, this is patronizing. You've spent a lot of time saying the game is good and that I'm wrong because there are players with above a 50% win rate.

But honestly, the game is bad and that player wouldn't last in a skill-based environment. I've never heard of the fucker, therefore he's literally nobody. Also, now that this has really gotten up your ass, it's pretty clear you're not skilled enough to argue with me about card games.

THAT'S PATRONIZING.

Now, you should have just said "man, a bunch of REALLY FUCKING VETERAN ccg players are telling me this game is too random, they might be right."

We are.

Edit: I think I just confused you with someone else. My apologies if I did, but my points stand... in a vacuum to people defending the game.

[schild]

I'm still standing by my opinion that the game is vastly superior on an ipad because you can play it while taking a shit. It's honestly the only "full' ccg to play on the toilet, so massive props to them for that.

Until Hex comes out so I can Poopdraft.

[Slayerik]

So now we're essentially at the 'you're a noob so don't qq' stage of the argument? Nice.

No? I was not being sarcastic, those concepts will be an enormous help to you as a player. The way you're thinking about card 'value' is something that is going to hold you back.

But anyway, think through the situations that you get with BoW:

I put it on your creature, you never attack with it. Assuming the creature has no other effects, we've traded a card for a card. I get a minor advantage in mana spent depending on how expensive your creature was.

I put it on your creature, you attack me and I draw a card. You just gave me a 2 for 1 at the cost of a little damage to me.

I put it on your creature, you attack and trade with one of my creatures, I draw a card. We're even on that exchange; you lose 1 card, I lose 2 cards and draw another one. 2 for 2.

I put it on your creature, you use a card to kill the effect and get to go back to using your creature. 1 for 1, your silence-type card for my BoW.

I put it on your creature, you for some reason use a card to kill your own creature. 2 for 1, don't do that.

Most of these are 1 for 1 trades, a card for a card or two cards for two cards. They're not hurting you nearly as badly as you think, unless you make one of the choices that gives your opponent a 2 for 1 or better trade.

EDIT: We're also setting aside that it's only of value for me to put it on your creature if it is one you'd want to attack with anyway. I can't use it to stop a taunter, I can't use it to stop guys who buff other creatures or your spell power, etc., etc. It's a pretty narrow bit of 'removal' to use it that way.

Also, it doesn't stop a 5/5 from finishing you off. Having a card is no good when you are dead.

[Slayerik]

I just find it funny that if you like this game, you're doing it wrong. The arena is pretty great. All the crying about not getting legendaries and having to go against them is weak. Many of my best decks never even had one. Since there is no skill, why have I been able to increase my average wins in arena? Pure luck?

I like Magic, I like Hex, I like Hearthstone. The poker draw argument you kinda lost me on, cause you know that in every one of these games you are hoping for that perfect, or very strong, starting hand. Tell me in MtG you haven't had a draw where you pretty much knew you were fucked....Anyway, all these games are fun to me so I'm just going to keep playing them. 'Too random', 'too luck based', 'too pay to win' or whatever.

[Slayerik]

Oh and hunters are completely broken.

- change a minion's health to 1: 0 mana   - Paladin (equality, change all minions health to 1) - 2 mana
- when your hero gets attacked deal 2 damage to all enemy units: 2 mana   - paladin 2 damage to all enemy (without them having to attack your HERO) 4 mana
- deal 3 damage, when a beast is out deal 5 damage: 3 mana       - Paladin Hammer of Wrath 4 mana, 3 damage AND a card
- remove all enemy stealth effects and all enemy secrets: 1 mana    - limited in effectiveness
- destroy an enemy minion: 3 mana  - Mage - polymorph - 4 mana and you can choose  , or shaman Hex for 3
- for each enemy minion summon 1 1/1 hound with charge: 2 mana   - This cards broke
- deal two damage: 1 mana   - Priest, holy smite - same card
- deal 5 damage to one enemy and 2 to adjacent: 5 mana     Druid, swipe - 4 mana for 4 to one, and 1 to all others
- look at the top three cards of your deck select one, discard others: 1 mana  - eh
- all other beasts have +1 attack: 1 mana    - limited to beasts

Etc.

Plus hero power: deal two damage to enemy hero: 2 mana. Can't be blocked by anything   - this ability does not effect the board. Sure, it's a good ability but won't save your ass or finish something off like a mage fireblast

Not saying hunters aren't annoying as shit right now, but the real brokeness is the Unleash the hounds/starving buzzard. The traps are annoying as hell in conjunction with the Eaglehorn bow, cause it turns that 2 damage a turn into 5 or 7 if traps keep popping off. You might think about making a priest deck or something to counter it.

[Johny Cee]

I just find it funny that if you like this game, you're doing it wrong. The arena is pretty great. All the crying about not getting legendaries and having to go against them is weak. Many of my best decks never even had one. Since there is no skill, why have I been able to increase my average wins in arena? Pure luck?

Randomness of legendaries isn't what the veteran CCG players are referring to as the reason why Arena is bad.  Arena is bad because you aren't drafting against other people with the same card set (as in an MtG draft where you open a pack and then pass everything but the card you take to the next player), you just get a selection of one of three random cards.  Everyone you play against has done the same.  Good card choice and knowledge of building a proper curve will still matter, but you aren't playing against people that have the same base potential deck power since you aren't drafting from the same card pool. 

For instance, an MtG draft I might choose the Blue rare as my first pick and look to go into blue.  I get passed a few packs and see that either the Blue in these packs is substandard, or someone else is cutting the draft of Blue ahead of me, so I start switching into another color.  In Arena, if I choose a Warrior, if I don't get offered any weapons or my class specific cards are pretty weak I'm in serious fucking trouble and there isn't anything I can do to ameliorate this.  Also, an MtG draft gives me information on what is potentially in my opponents decks because I looked at and passed many of those cards.  Finally, an MtG draft tends to self-correct the power available in the card pool....  if a color is very strong, more people are going to draft it and thus prevent one person from accumulating all of those cards.  Or hate drafting....  plenty of times I will pick a powerful card in a color I'm not in if the cards I'm passed are weak for my colors... better to deny that resource from my enemies than to pick up another medicore or terrible card I might use.


Skill matters, but there is far more randomness than is typically the case in competitive game, CCG or otherwise.

I like Magic, I like Hex, I like Hearthstone. The poker draw argument you kinda lost me on, cause you know that in every one of these games you are hoping for that perfect, or very strong, starting hand. Tell me in MtG you haven't had a draw where you pretty much knew you were fucked....Anyway, all these games are fun to me so I'm just going to keep playing them. 'Too random', 'too luck based', 'too pay to win' or whatever.

In Magic, that doesn't happen as much because you can mulligan multiple times (losing 1 card from hand size every mulligan) and matches are best of three, so even if I have the worst opening hands I still have a chance to come back in games 2 and 3.  In Hearthstone, you make a guess based on your opponent's class and the prevailing metagame about what to keep in your opening hand.  If you guess very wrong, you are fucked.  No second chances.  And because in general the game is much faster, delaying in the hope of drawing into answers isn't an option because if you are fucked in the opening hand there is a good chance that you are too far behind to come back.

[Johny Cee]

Also, one of the reasons the game design of this frustrates me:

Wizards has published articles about card design, set designs, design philosophies, design mistakes, and design successes for YEARS.  It's all available to the public on their website. If you are building a CCG from scratch, why the fuck aren't you forcing everyone involved to sit down and comb through that shit?  There are plenty of places you can deviate and go your own way in the course of designing your game, but most of this stuff is a solved problem that is intimately documented right there for public access.

[trias_e]

Streaming some of my constructed pally deck which has had some success.  Fuck truesilver, consecrate, and equality.  We don't need those OP cards.

twitch.tv/trias_e

[Jeff Kelly]

Schild, are you confusing me with someone else? I even publicly stated that I agree with you and Johnny Cee.

Slayerik, yes other classes have similar cards but only one or two, not a whole set of seven or eight like hunter.

The problem with the current meta is that Warlocks circumvent their class card disadvantages (discard a card) that should balance their hero power by stacking up on cheap neutrals and rushing you to death while still maintaining card advantage. That's basically what a Zoolock is.

The majority of hunter class cards is less than 5 mana. The buzzard, UtH and timber wolf combo gives you minions with charge, on average 9 attack and three cards drawn and cheap cards like multishot or exploding trap help you to manage the board.

As an opponent to hunter you can't have too many minions on the board or the UtH combos kill you. Few minions on the board means though, that your opponent can easily manage your board. Defending against Zoolock means that you'll have to survive the initial rush and if you do you're likely out of cards and have to resort to top decking with maybe ten to fifteen health lost while he still has a good hand.

In a game where card advantage is so important the Warlock's hero ability is simply too powerful and the hunter class cards have awesome synergy, UtH forces your opponent to a certain strategy and your other cards help to make sure he can't execute that strategy.

[Jeff Kelly]

Schild, I quoted the stats of that particular player btw because in my opinion it shows just how much 'luck' and card draw factors into the game. One of the arguably best players in the world right now barely averages a 50+% win rate against a pool of - on average - worse players. If skill had a bigger impact he should be able to beat the spread by a much wider margin.

The number of hours and games played also shows that he had losing and winning streaks which means that the variance is also significant. That he managed to reach legendary shows that he is a skilled player. How he managed it shows how important the draw is if you're barely able to stay ahead against a pool of players whose skill and deck power is on a Gaussian distribution.