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schild
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Reply #35 on: August 19, 2013, 06:12:45 AM

They've messed with a few core rules like clockwork every three years. However, up until this last set of rules (the Legend Change), they've been universally positive. I'm simply not sold on there being 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptors or 2 Umezawa's Jitte on the table at the same time. Not only is it a failure of flavor, it's a failure of fun.

The fact the game is still fun for casuals even when played incorrectly is a big deal.

Edit: Also, yes, Maro is quite briliiant - at this one thing. Everything else I've ever heard him talk about is just, well, awful.
tazelbain
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Reply #36 on: August 19, 2013, 07:28:03 AM

Jace is playing both sides conflict  why so serious?

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schild
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Reply #37 on: August 19, 2013, 07:35:37 AM

It's funny because I don't care about the lore so much as I do the elegance of the last Legendary-Rule. I liked the sort of singularity effect that occurred.
Xilren's Twin
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Reply #38 on: August 19, 2013, 10:07:53 AM

The rules of Magic are actually really complex, I think most people that don't do events or play online most likely play incorrectly. And they keep messing with even pretty basic things, like damage being on the stack, regeneration, etc. Also priority is a mess if you treat it formally.

Actually, i think it's a nice mix.  The base rule are pretty simple and straightforward - constructing a deck, paying for spells, the 7 basic card types, the phases of the turn, how you win/lose.  Kids as young as 10 can grasp and play the base game without understanding the higher level stuff.  Where the complexity resides is in the card interactions.  Someone said that for every rule in the base game of magic, there's at least 1 card that breaks it, and that is probably true.  Learning what makes a "good" card or even how to best play your own cards in a variety of circumstances is when people start to move from the base game to the higher level stuff.  There is a learning curve to it, but not one i would say is more complicated than Chess or Go.

BTW, Rosewater just today posted a Design 104 article, which also has links back to his 101, 102 and 103 articles on card design.

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Ingmar
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Reply #39 on: August 19, 2013, 10:24:09 AM

The legend rule change is 100% about Commander; I think in that context it was pretty necessary, which turns it into a necessary evil in other formats if you don't want to have diverging rule sets.

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Reply #40 on: August 19, 2013, 11:54:05 AM

Commander already has a divergent ruleset. This was not for commander. This was so they could print more fucking legends, and bad players could play with more legends.
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Reply #41 on: August 19, 2013, 03:09:00 PM

OK, 90% Commander, 5% Jace, and 5% Geist. I think you're underestimating just how much attention Commander gets from them now.

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Reply #42 on: August 19, 2013, 04:14:53 PM

Trust me, as someone with about 40 packs of those stupid sleeves (whole cube is sleeved in Commander's Arsenal sleeves) and playsets on playsets of Scavenging Oozes, I am not. Also, my entire trade binder is foreign language EDH foils (with some constructed stuff here and there).

It was just an unnecessary change made by both their own logic, despite them saying it wasn't for Commander.

I hate every bit of it.
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Reply #43 on: August 20, 2013, 03:36:58 AM

OK, 90% Commander, 5% Jace, and 5% Geist. I think you're underestimating just how much attention Commander gets from them now.

Actually, i always though it was a combo of pushing commander as a format, and giving people more reason to obtain Planeswalkers since now they had a greater chance of being able to actually USE them during the game, rather than treat them as anti-planeswalker spells.  So, call it 10% commander, 10% planeswalker use, 80% "how can we increase demand for legends/mythics".  i.e. really, all about sales in both cases  Ohhhhh, I see.

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schild
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Reply #44 on: August 20, 2013, 07:56:10 AM

It's true, there's no reason not to run 4 of anything legendary anymore.
Ingmar
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Reply #45 on: August 20, 2013, 11:05:56 AM

Eh, they're still dead draws a fair amount of the time even with the rule change.

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Reply #46 on: August 20, 2013, 11:59:41 AM

Making something strong more disposable does not make them dead draws. It's far LESS likely to be a dead draw now than it used to be.
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Reply #47 on: August 20, 2013, 12:21:21 PM

For a planeswalker, sure, since you can reset loyalty. For a legendary it's only any different at all if you're expecting to play against people with a lot of copies of it. And in fact I would say it is now more likely to be a dead draw, since when you have one in play and your opponent can't kill yours by playing his own (and vice-versa; you don't need 2 copies of your own to come out with one when he has one in play), you're actually less likely to need that 2nd copy, not more likely.

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Reply #48 on: August 20, 2013, 12:23:59 PM

Swing with Thrun, let him die. Play another Thrun. Swing with Geist of Saint Traft to hit with the angel for 4, take out a chump blocker, play another Geist.

Basically, all they did was give Legendary creatures Vigilance. Smooth.
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Reply #49 on: August 20, 2013, 12:25:43 PM

Swing with Thrun, let him die. Play another Thrun. Swing with Geist of Saint Traft to hit with the angel for 4, take out a chump blocker, play another Geist.

Basically, all they did was give Legendary creatures Vigilance. Smooth.

You could do that with them now. I mean, I guess there's a corner case where you could play a 2nd one just to have it be untapped if the first one DOESN'T die, but that seems a little narrow.

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tazelbain
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Reply #50 on: August 20, 2013, 12:27:38 PM

I think watching M14 drafts have given me a bit of an insight. The sheer variety of board states give magic its ooph. Say you compare to a game like Solforge or Shadow Era where the board state stays very much narrow.  I think that's where the balance come in bad cards create repetitive board states.

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Reply #51 on: August 20, 2013, 01:19:22 PM

SolForge is missing so many other things that I don't know that board states even enters into the 'why is it so much shittier than Magic' conversation.  why so serious?

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Reply #52 on: August 20, 2013, 03:27:07 PM

SolForge is actual trash.
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Reply #53 on: September 01, 2013, 11:03:08 PM

Who's had experience with Legend of the Five Rings? Opinions?

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Reply #54 on: September 01, 2013, 11:40:50 PM

I played L5R back when it came out, during that sort of honeymoon play EVERY CCG period after Magic hit the scene.

Somehow it still exists today. I did not like it. Maybe it got better?

People joke about Magic players and hygiene.

There's just no comparing Magic players to L5R players or adults that play Yugioh. The worst fanbases.
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Reply #55 on: September 02, 2013, 03:12:33 PM

L5R seemed like the best of the not-Magics that sprung up around that time. It was also different enough in theme and mechanics to feel like sort of its own thing to some degree.

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Reply #56 on: September 03, 2013, 01:28:08 PM

L5R made for a great multiplayer game. 1v1? Not as good as Magic but better than any other CCG I played back in the day. Of course, I thought Magic was more fun in a scrum anyway so YMMV.

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Reply #57 on: September 04, 2013, 06:07:56 AM

Since Magic is in the process of spoiling it's next set release (Theros), i'd just like to mention a few things related.  The set rotation for magic helps keep the game fresh (and of course drives sales); just about every new block (which is 3 linked sets) introduces new mechanics, rules, and story themes.  In this latest set, they've introduced some new keywords (bestow, heroic, monstrosity), some reworked ones (devotion as a redone chroma), introduced a new card type (enchantment artifacts) and brought back a reworked old one (enchantment creatures).  And they decided to reprint a popular older card (thoughtsieze) that was worth like $70 on the secondary market.  Plus the whole thing is Greek themed (again they try to appeal to all kinds of different players).

So every set builds on what you already know, plus introduces some new stuff.  Interestingly, even with all their internal focus on designing well and playtesting, probably only 50% of the new things they try actually turns out ok. Sometimes it just a bad mechanic (the recent cipher keyword for example), sometimes is not because the ability itself is bad, but b/c they don't put it on cards that are good enough to see play, sometimes it's because they dont seem to recognize what's already good in the current standard format and put out something that's ok, but weaker than what players already have access to., etc etc.  It's still an inexact science at best.

For this block, with the whole "enchantments matter" theme is a risk.  Stapling that type on to other cards now opens the door to twice as many removal spells, so like with the bestow mechanic they try to word it in such a way that it's not an automatic two for one they way most creature auras are (i.e. you cast a creature aura, in response i kill your creature, you've lost 2 cards to my 1).  But to counteract this new method to survive normal enchantment removal, they've made the aura ability more expensive then just playing it as a creature, and generally the creatures themselves have not been that exciting so far.

With the cost of bestow, and with the monstrosity mechanic and god cards, it appears they are trying to slow down standard.  But RtR block is not exactly a slow block (hello Burning Tree Emissary), so how will the two sets play well with each other?  As with all new sets. it will be a beautiful, glorious mess that will eventually settle out, right around the time they next set gets released...

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Reply #58 on: September 04, 2013, 07:42:05 AM

The god cards are in no way slow. I think you might want to read them again. Nylea is an indestructible 6/6 for 5 that will never become an enchantment if the player knows what they're doing.
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Reply #59 on: September 04, 2013, 11:17:23 AM

I think the stuff is generally a little slower than the Innistrad stuff it is replacing, but not a lot slower. Don't get fooled by the bestow costs being high, you're playing those things as creatures if you're at that point in the curve when you get one. I am dubious that bestow is going to be a particularly Standard-relevant ability anyway, it seems more of a Limited mechanic; devotion/gods on the other hand are something to watch out for as Schild says. Heroic goes right into whatever the successor decks to Naya humans etc. are. (Although kind of works at cross purposes with the Domri Rade decks...)

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Reply #60 on: September 04, 2013, 11:23:29 AM

The new planeswalker is cuckoo for ritual puffs.
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Reply #61 on: September 04, 2013, 02:25:25 PM

The god cards are in no way slow. I think you might want to read them again. Nylea is an indestructible 6/6 for 5 that will never become an enchantment if the player knows what they're doing.

Yeah, that wasn't a very nuanced explanation.  What I mean by slow regarding the God cards, is not the mana cost per se, but the fact that they are large indestructible creatures once the devotion kicks in, with no built in evasion (other than Thassa, who is basically nuts - a 5/5 for 3 that can make herself or other critters unblockable for 1U).  The whole "big creatures swinging at each other" is generally slower form a magic than in times past, and i could easily see a bunch of indestructible creature stalemates if most people are playing gods.  Course, it still too early to say - the red god is something you may not even ever care if it becomes a creature.  Saw a quote that said "Assemble the Legion and Young Pyromancer?  Meet your god..."

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Xilren's Twin
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Reply #62 on: September 05, 2013, 03:47:58 AM

The new planeswalker is cuckoo for ritual puffs.

And the new new UB planeswalker hits the table at 3 CMC but it's abilities dont put it on the "fast" track.
And the black god's ability is "1B, pay 2 life: draw a card.  Plus, your opponents can't gain life."  Again, seems aimed at mid-late game max usefulness. 
I actually think combat math will now involve managing your opponents devotion, b/c if you can off a perm with 2-3 colored mana in the cost, you could drop a God right out of creature mode at instant speed.
So I stand by my "slower" comment.

Whats the heck are they doing with the new color kill spells that only affect the same color?  i.e a black kill spell that only kills black creatures; a wihite spell to exile any white perm; a blue counter than only counters blue spells?  Seems like they were trying to get too cute with them.

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Reply #63 on: September 05, 2013, 05:10:11 AM

Erebos is awesome. He's gonna make a fucked up monoblack general for EDH.

The UB planeswalker is an actual piece of shit that may find his place because the meta is so goddamn weird.

Edit: On the hate spells - I'm hoping we see a reprint of Painter's Servant.
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Reply #64 on: September 05, 2013, 10:41:17 AM

The same-color hate spells are to give you something to sideboard in the mirror in a meta that may be pushing mono-colored decks.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
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Reply #65 on: September 05, 2013, 10:43:58 AM

I know what they're for. I just like Painter's Servant - and have 4 foils because I play Imperial Painter periodically in Legacy. I believe Xilren knew what they were for also. But he's right, it's really cute, and super narrow. Super, duper narrow. Like, overly narrow unless ONE color dominates the format and that color requires a certain brand of hate.
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Reply #66 on: September 05, 2013, 11:31:04 AM

But Mike Flores likes them!  why so serious?

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Reply #67 on: September 05, 2013, 11:35:59 AM

God I hate Flores. Of course he fucking likes them.
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Reply #68 on: September 17, 2013, 07:52:26 PM

So, lets talk power and cards.

How do you experts, judge how good a card is (lets say, in a set) and how important to that level of power is a complete playable x4 set?

Are the two related? Are some cards powerful even as a single copy?

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Reply #69 on: September 17, 2013, 08:58:16 PM

Whether a card is powerful as a single copy is sort of context-dependent. A traditional control deck, for example, doesn't need to run 4 copies of its win condition, but that card in an aggressive deck might be a 4-of. I think in *most* cases, a card that's strong enough to play is strong enough to play 4 of in at least one deck, and although there are some cards that are probably too expensive to do that with, there aren't many. Even Cruel Ultimatum got 4x-ed in a lot of decks and 7 specific colored mana is just about as expensive as spells get.

Another factor would be tutoring; some cards are only narrowly powerful so in a deck where you can go searching for whatever you want, like a Birthing Pod deck, you might run a bunch of singletons with narrow applications, knowing that you can go get the one you need out of your deck at more or less any time. Equipment in the Caw-Blade deck would be another example. You don't need to run 4 of every sword when you can just go get the one you need to win.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
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