Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice

[Riggswolfe]

I just assumed this was her Princess Diana gear, as opposed to her Wonder Woman costume.

Likewise. Also can't really believe so many people actually care what Wonder Woman might look like, is she actually an interesting character in any way? DC is very much not my thing but I watched all the cartoons and Wonder Woman sucks ass in them.

Wonder Woman is a great character but she hasn't really been well done in any form of TV or movie yet. Linda Carter was fun to watch but the show wasn't a good Wonder Woman show.

Edit: Fixed a grammar/spelling issue. Good god I need to proofread more!

[HaemishM]

If that were a picture of wonder woman from the wonder woman movie it would be fine with everyone. 

You are wrong. Wonder Woman being 3rd banana in this picture is the least of its problems.

[Evildrider]

If that were a picture of wonder woman from the wonder woman movie it would be fine with everyone. 

You are wrong. Wonder Woman being 3rd banana in this picture is the least of its problems.

One thing it did do, we aren't complaining about Batfleck as much anymore.   

[HaemishM]

I'm pretty sure Ben Affleck as Batman is not even going to be close to the worst thing about this movie. If I had to guess, it'll be Mark Luthorberg or the script.

[Teleku]

Eh, it's not just the costume.. bad casting is bad casting.  At least get someone with some kind of physique.  Someone like Ronda Rousey.

That woman is way to butch/buff to pull off Wonder Woman.

Gina Carano would be about 100 times better (especially in the looks department) if you wanted to go that route, but still probably wouldn't look right.

[Cyrrex]

I don't agree.  When Rousey is cleaned up, she is really good looking and her physique is way closer to Amazon Warrior than Carano's.  Hair would need to be black, obviously.

[eldaec]

Wtf about wonder woman makes her a great character?

[Cyrrex]

Wtf about wonder woman makes her a great character?

Boobs.  Raven black hair.  Blue eyes.  Delicious physique.  Probably a thing or two about that lasso.

Okay, maybe that doesn't make her a great character, really, if you don't nail all of those things you might as well not even bother.

Edit:  A case for brown eyes could possibly be made.

[Teleku]

Wtf about wonder woman makes her a great character?

Boobs.  Raven black hair.  Blue eyes.  Delicious physique.  Probably a thing or two about that lasso.

Okay, maybe that doesn't make her a great character, really, if you don't nail all of those things you might as well not even bother.

Edit:  A case for brown eyes could possibly be made.

Seems like Gal Gadot nailed the part perfectly then, sans huge boobs.   



I mean seriously, Wonder Woman is skinny Bikini model who can magically pick up cars.  Gal Gadots body is probably going to be the only good thing about his movie.

[HaemishM]

Dear God is that Jim Lee's version of Wonder Woman? No one ever any-fucking-where should ever take Jim Lee's advice when it comes to casting for a female's physique. That motherfucker is Rob Liefeld with the ability to draw hands and feet.

[Teleku]

Michael Turner apparently.

[HaemishM]

Yeah, him too. I like Turner but relying on him for a physical reference for an actual physical woman... not a good idea.

[Cyrrex]

Gal Gadot hasn't got the boobs because she is waif thin.  She looks like you could break her in two by sneezing on her.  WW should be a very FIT binkini model.  More meat on the bones.  Even that picture you posted has a better looking physique than Gadot.

[Maven]

The lack of muscularity and tone in these supposedly hyper-capable individuals is visual dissonance. I'm becoming increasingly aware of the Whedon Girls phenomenon.

Edit: Oh. That's because the movie tailors to a male audience. Guys have to go through these insane workouts to get muscular bods that set new standards in masculine physique, while women have to... look pretty? Be flexible? I guess they don't have to show definition as much as the guys do...

I dunno. I don't hear about the female cast members going through these brutal work out routines in order to more accurately reflect the image of the character. Aesthetic standards of feminine beauty as determined by Hollywood contradict that physique. The only past comparison I can think to examine is Carrie-Anne Moss in The Matrix, but I think that was more wire training as she just needed to look good in tight, shiny black outfits.

[Khaldun]

There's only a very few characters in comics who are consistently drawn as having a musculature that corresponds to their power set. Ditko drew Spider-Man as spindly, and though that got lost for a while, it was eventually recovered, which fit the idea that this was a kid with a strength that was unnatural. The Flash has sometimes been drawn as having a runner's physique, though not always. Some relatively younger superheroines like Stargirl have been drawn as looking prepubescent, though Supergirl has been sexualized like nobody's business in recent years.

I'm prepared to see Wonder Woman as thin or muscular, trim or Rubenesque. I think the bigger problem is just that the character is really not a good one on the whole. Unlike Batman or Superman, her pulp origins are deeply weird and idiosyncratic--you can't really return her to the "roots", and she doesn't really correspond to a class of general archetypes. (Batman is basically linked to a whole range of Shadow-like vigilantes; Superman to a whole range of strongmen.) Even the other female superheroes of her approximate era of origin are very different--they're more like female versions of a Batman-type vigilante, "mystery women" of various kinds.

Nobody has ever really settled on a steady characterization for her since. There has been a sort of feminist-lite sentimental WW (George Perez' is probably the best of those), there's been "female Superman" (pretty much the standard approach for the 1970s) where she mirrored most of Superman's tropes and stories, and then there's several attempts to take the Greek mythology and Greek warrior-culture elements more seriously, most strikingly in her post-New 52 incarnation. Of all of those, I'd go with the latter as the most interesting possible way to do the character, but it is the approach which fits most poorly into a Nolanesque "realistic" DC Universe. There's no way that Zeus being her real father and her mother being the leader of an immortal race of Greek women who withdrew from the world works in the world that "Man of Steel" showcased. Just ain't happening.

[Fordel]

It could happen if they believe it could. Like, what made it OK to dump Thor into the same universe that Ironman was fucking around. Super science, Super science, oh literal ancient gods and monsters.


That's probably why no Wonder-woman movie is so frustrating to me, Marvel already figured it out for you, replace Norse myth with Greek myth, done, rubies and emeralds for everyone.

[Khaldun]

For sure it could have happened if they'd left room for it imaginatively. Probably could still if they had the imagination that creates room. Look at GotG! But Synder, Goyer, etc., those guys imagining space-Greek Gods and utopian Greek warrior-women? Nope.

[Evildrider]

So Batman is going to have been around and working Gotham for the last 30 years.  He's just never been caught on camera and been working in the shadows.  He's basically an urban legend in Gotham.  Wonder Woman is going to be in the same boat.  She's been active as a hero, but has been keeping a very low profile.  I guess this is a way to cut back on the back stories of the characters.  Although i do like them using a different version of Batman than has been used in the past.

[Khaldun]

This part can work, I guess. Superman's very public appearance suddenly makes all these other lurkers suit up and go full spandex?

Batman I guess I can buy as "totally secret, nobody really believes in him except for a few cops who know he's for real" if he's only been taking down street-level thugs and shit. The moment they say "No, there's also been the Joker and Two-Face and the Riddler" that's done. You can't be an urban legend AND have a city full of colorful public criminals who wear costumes that you somehow always quietly take down just out of sight and without any profile.

Wonder Woman I guess I could buy as "secret warrior woman from a mysterious island" who does commando crap to take down evil guerillas or warlords now and again.

Aquaman works ok as a secret superguy.

Cyborg not so much but then he can be a newly-minted superdude.

[tazelbain]

The hand-waving will vigorous and prolonged.

[Ingmar]

Aquaman can't keep a low profile if he keeps doing shit like this.

[Evil Elvis]

I don't agree.  When Rousey is cleaned up, she is really good looking and her physique is way closer to Amazon Warrior than Carano's.  Hair would need to be black, obviously.

Go watch Expendables 3, and come back saying you'd like to see Rousey act again.

[Fordel]

Aquaman can't keep a low profile if he keeps doing shit like this.

How long were you waiting for that chance?

[Ingmar]

Roughly 13 years.

[Fordel]

You're not even joking are you.

[Nevermore]

I dunno. I don't hear about the female cast members going through these brutal work out routines in order to more accurately reflect the image of the character. Aesthetic standards of feminine beauty as determined by Hollywood contradict that physique. The only past comparison I can think to examine is Carrie-Anne Moss in The Matrix, but I think that was more wire training as she just needed to look good in tight, shiny black outfits.

I distinctly remember Linda Hamilton getting pretty buff for Terminator 2.

[01101010]

Go watch Expendables 3, and come back saying you'd like to see Rousey act again.

I wouldn't be watching the acting. Besides, she is not a traditional actor - no acting background at all. Maybe once she grows out of MMA stuff, she'll have the time and coin to take some acting classes. Until then, she is just a muscular, fit animated model. And I am ok with that. 

[Margalis]

Michael Turner apparently.

I was going to say that's Top Cow Wonder Woman.

The guy can only draw one woman. The nose especially is a dead giveaway.

Re: Whedon Girls: The guy writes and casts women he wants to bone. It's that simple.

Nobody has ever really settled on a steady characterization for her since. There has been a sort of feminist-lite sentimental WW (George Perez' is probably the best of those), there's been "female Superman" (pretty much the standard approach for the 1970s) where she mirrored most of Superman's tropes and stories, and then there's several attempts to take the Greek mythology and Greek warrior-culture elements more seriously, most strikingly in her post-New 52 incarnation. Of all of those, I'd go with the latter as the most interesting possible way to do the character, but it is the approach which fits most poorly into a Nolanesque "realistic" DC Universe.

Exactly this. What does the general public know of WW? She has a magic lasso even though she's not any sort of cowgirl / old west hero, she has an invisible airplane, she dresses like Captain America even though she's probably not American, she can deflect stuff with bracelets - it's all ridiculous.

The only thing about Wonder Woman that is standout is that she's a woman. The Flash is fast, Plastic Man is stretchy, WW is female. That's her single notable trait. She's an awful character - like not even in the top 50 of female super heroes unless you grandfather her in. There are enough female superheroes these days that just being female isn't enough.

[eldaec]

Lack of muscle tone is no more a problem in super hero movies than any other film.

It won't matter if the script is good and the director is good.

Do you see what I did there?

(But seriously it just doesn't matter)

[Velorath]

Re: Whedon Girls: The guy writes and casts women he wants to bone. It's that simple.

 

[Cyrrex]

Go watch Expendables 3, and come back saying you'd like to see Rousey act again.

I wouldn't be watching the acting. Besides, she is not a traditional actor - no acting background at all. Maybe once she grows out of MMA stuff, she'll have the time and coin to take some acting classes. Until then, she is just a muscular, fit animated model. And I am ok with that. 

Yeah, I wasn't talking about actual acting, only the looks department.  I have no idea who Gal Gadot is either, or whether or not she can act.  And really, for a superhero...unless they CG everything, it also matters how athletic some of these people are.

I have a weird example.  From Attack of the Clones, of all things.  Natalie Portman is someone you should probably consider a good actor, if you are being reasonable.  There is that extended scene after they all get captured and have to fight in the arena.  All well and good.  Then they get on their ship and go after Dooku, and their ship gets shot down.  Padme rallies the surviving troopers and gives them some command or other, and then they all start running off.  Only, Natalie Portman looks like she never ran in her life, she literally does not know how to, and it looks amazingly retarded when she tries.  Every time I see it, it bothers the shit out of me.  Gone is the illusion of tough girl bad ass fighter girl. 

It is the same thing with the waif thin fighter girls.  If it does not look right visually, then the audience doesn't buy it.  It's not only the women.  Superman is always a larger, muscular guy, because we wouldn't believe it otherwise despite there being no actual reason for it.   

TL;DR Superheroes have to look the part, otherwise it is an instant fail.

[Ironwood]

I've kinda changed my mind on it a little bit though - I regularly see fit, waiflike women at the gym that run farther, faster and press more weight than I ever could.

But I take the point.

[eldaec]

Can we please not use the star wars prequels as examples of why things will be bad.

There is so much wrong with each of them that you can't reasonably claim that the reason any aspect if them was bad was because of one specific thing.

[Khaldun]

I get Cyrrex's point, though. An actor who can't physically move the way they should for the role they're playing is not a good actor. It's not just about line delivery. Contrarily, an actor who can 'sell' their take on the role with everything they're doing--body motion, body language, etc., can convince almost anybody that they are right for the role even if you originally thought otherwise. Remember Heath Ledger as the Joker, for example. I didn't join the crowd of people saying, "Totally wrong" but I have to admit that I looked at the guy and said, really not what I think of as The Joker. Because I thought of the Joker as tall, thin, with a pointed face, etc.

A slender non-muscular woman playing Wonder Woman can sell the role if she can move right, gesture right, if there's a real actor in that body controlling all aspects of the performance. (And a director who gets it.)

[HaemishM]

(And a director who gets it.)

I think we see where the weak link will be. At least if you watch Sucker Punch, that is.