Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

[MediumHigh]

Wheadon is great with horror,  but the avengers kinda wrote itself. Without the nerdgasms the plot falls apart. Him piling on the interesting week after week on a non-horror show feels dubious, especially when the show could have lent itself to a much more interesting premise if it was actually about the organization shield.

[Nevermore]

This is horrifyingly bad.  I can't believe Arrow is better than this.

I disagree entirely.  I hated Arrow.  That first episode of SHIELD was kind of bland but there were enough shout-outs to the movies to make it moderately enjoyable to watch.

Now granted, my standards for network television shows has been so lowered by the terribly crap that's being produced lately that there's really only one very low bar that has to be overcome at the point: Was there anything really egregiously stupid happening?  The pilot managed to overcome that low standard (a feat surprisingly difficult for most network shows to achieve) so I'll give it a few more tries to see if it gets any better.

[MahrinSkel]

I think Wheadon peaked as a writer a long time ago. Look no further than doll house. I don't know the premise is inherently uninspiring.

I thought Cabin in the Woods and Avengers were both pretty well written.

We need an emoticon for "TAKE COVER!"

--Dave

[Nevermore]

Why is everyone saying "Whedon this and Whedon that" when he doesn't even have real control over the show (there's like a million producers, directors, writers, and the thing is attached to Marvel/ABC/Disney).  If he did, the pilot likely wouldn't have sucked as hard as it did (relatively speaking).  Honestly, does anyone here think that pilot would've been anything like it was if Whedon had complete control with a similar budget?  There's no way...

According to a guy named Joss Whedon, you're wrong.  He has flat out said that although there were notes, Marvel (both in terms of MAoS, Avengers and his work related to the other films) is more hands off than any network or studio he has worked under.  Marvel certainly dictated some elements.  Whedon and his people (including his family - who will be hands on when he isn't) came up with the characters, plot and stories.   He is building his part of one of Marvel's universes.  He has freedom to go after available Marvel properties and incorporate them, or to come up with ideas that Marvel might pull into the comics.  I'd be shocked if we don't see the MAoS team in Marvel main continuity comic form by summer 2015.

Whedon has actually worked as a writer for Marvel itself so I'm sure that relationship helps.

[Ironwood]

I think Wheadon peaked as a writer a long time ago. Look no further than doll house. I don't know the premise is inherently uninspiring.

I thought Cabin in the Woods and Avengers were both pretty well written.

We need an emoticon for "TAKE COVER!"

--Dave

We do ?  I agree with the sentiment entirely.  I also think that 'Avengers was carried by Nerdgasms, writing didn't matter' entirely discounts what an utter trainwreck the Avengers had the potential to be.

I really, really do want more people to say this is better than Arrow though.  We get this show tomorrow and, frankly, Arrow is utter, utter shite.

[satael]

I think Wheadon peaked as a writer a long time ago. Look no further than doll house. I don't know the premise is inherently uninspiring.

I thought Cabin in the Woods and Avengers were both pretty well written.

We need an emoticon for "TAKE COVER!"

--Dave

We do ?  I agree with the sentiment entirely.  I also think that 'Avengers was carried by Nerdgasms, writing didn't matter' entirely discounts what an utter trainwreck the Avengers had the potential to be.

I really, really do want more people to say this is better than Arrow though.  We get this show tomorrow and, frankly, Arrow is utter, utter shite.

It has the potential to be better than Arrow but since pilot may vary from the actual show quite much it's too early to say anything definite yet (imho).

[Ironwood]

Fair Enough.

[Margalis]

The overall plot of Avengers was total nonsense, they had no idea what to do with entire characters (Captain America I'm looking at you - all you did was perform gymnastics on conveniently-placed obstacles), like almost everything Whedon it suffered from miscast hot chick playing at being a badass. The dialogue was generally good other than that every character was too quippy but that's Whedon's thing.

I want to say it was nothing special, but then again I look at the recent DC movies and those show how you can fuck up the basics pretty spectacularly. So you have to credit everyone involved for that.

I wish Whedon would make an active effort to for once avoid his own tropes and schtick and make something real. That's why I said I'm not sure you can call SHIELD a drama - is there any drama? There's a layer of superficiality and artifice over everything he does. Sure, sometimes in a Whedon show something dramatic happens like a character dying, but that's inevitably sandwiched in schtick so it has no real impact. I don't see how you can say he's good at horror, considering nothing he does is horrific. (In that sense) His horror is horror filtered though WB sensibilities.

It seems like he's content with this, but he probably has the talent to do something more. I'd love to see him try to do something non-schticky. (You can have comedic moments without being schticky)

[Khaldun]

Wheadon is great with horror,  but the avengers kinda wrote itself. Without the nerdgasms the plot falls apart. Him piling on the interesting week after week on a non-horror show feels dubious, especially when the show could have lent itself to a much more interesting premise if it was actually about the organization shield.

You clearly have not seen enough bad superhero movies (e.g. most of them) if you think it "wrote itself". I neither get devotion nor anti-devotion to Whedon.

[Ghambit]

Why is everyone saying "Whedon this and Whedon that" when he doesn't even have real control over the show (there's like a million producers, directors, writers, and the thing is attached to Marvel/ABC/Disney).  If he did, the pilot likely wouldn't have sucked as hard as it did (relatively speaking).  Honestly, does anyone here think that pilot would've been anything like it was if Whedon had complete control with a similar budget?  There's no way...

According to a guy named Joss Whedon, you're wrong.  He has flat out said that although there were notes, Marvel (both in terms of MAoS, Avengers and his work related to the other films) is more hands off than any network or studio he has worked under.  Marvel certainly dictated some elements.  Whedon and his people (including his family - who will be hands on when he isn't) came up with the characters, plot and stories.   He is building his part of one of Marvel's universes.  He has freedom to go after available Marvel properties and incorporate them, or to come up with ideas that Marvel might pull into the comics.  I'd be shocked if we don't see the MAoS team in Marvel main continuity comic form by summer 2015.

Whedon has actually worked as a writer for Marvel itself so I'm sure that relationship helps.

Yah, none of these points really matter.  Ask Spielberg, Lucas, etc. 
Just because he has superficial "freedoms" doesn't mean he's actually able to execute them how he'd naturally do-so.  Like it or not, this is a large corporate venture on, as said, family friendly network pop-millenial TV.  Regardless of that even, most producers/directors in his position end up selling themselves and their fanbase out for the thick line of mediocrity.  So thinking this show will somehow be anything slightly more than 'good' is a fool's dream just on that alone. 

It's gotten to the point that people wont defend Marvel anymore anyways, because they're pretty much a victim of their own success.  Imagine for a second that this pilot was shown 10 years ago.  The pitchforks would be out en masse.  Now?  pfft.  Who's gonna cry for the Marvel/Disney juggernaut?  not me.     

[Khaldun]

The pitchforks would have been out 10 years ago? I dunno. I think fans at least would have been eager to see what might come next.

But you're forgetting the other reason the pitchforks wouldn't have been out: fans have been predicting that every single Marvel film would suck, blow, be impossible to do. I remember people saying, "Iron Man? Pfffft, he's a minor character of little interest, there's no way you can make this guy carry a whole movie." Or "Avengers? There is no way you can pull that off, it's just going to look gaudy and ridiculous and cornball."  So at least some folks have learned, "Ok, be patient, see how this goes--I've been wrong enough times already."

edit:

I'll add a few quotes from f13 itself:

"While Downey is a good actor, he is totally wrong for the part. He's not even in the ballpark. His casting is about like tossing Michael Keaton into the Batman role. He'll do well, but he won't fit. "

"But really, Iron Man could be really good or really bad. Favreau is decent, I just don't know how he'll do with heavy effects-laden movies."

"I love RDJ, but he is my biggest worry about this movie. He just doesn't fit my vision of Ironman."

"Speaking of pictures that paint a thousand words, that one shot [of the first suit that Stark makes in the cave] says to me 'hey, this might be good.'"

"Also, that Iron Man classic pic that Stray posted - freaking awesome."

"I watched it [first trailer] and was underwhelmed but I think part of it is I'm really turned off on Ironman ever since the Civil War crap. "


-----

"Captain America, Thor, and Wonder Woman are all characters that seem incredibly hard to pull off well in cinema. At least in this day and age (Wonder Woman was perfect for 70's television though).

There are quite a few non comic reading females that LOVE Wonder Woman too, but still....Even with that built in audience, it just seems like a hard thing to do.

Captain America: Maybe if they played on the dejected/outmoded theme Marvel is doing with him now. But even then, he's too flashy and corny for the big screen (like Wonder Woman). If he hated Bush and Cheney though, that might make up for it.

Thor: I'd write it like a Kung Fu episode. Also, I'd write it where he didn't have the hammer.

Scratch that. He lost his hammer, and is on the search for it. And then he tracks it down to a small town somewhere out in umm...The West (it's gotta be like Kung Fu right?)."


etc. All these films have been hard sells both with their target audiences and the general audiences, and mostly they've won people over. Even the ones that people don't like so much (Thor) are piles better than comic book movies that aren't much older (Fantastic Four, for example).

So that's the ten year difference: Marvel has done a pretty fair job building their franchise and now they're being cut some slack from a lot of folks.

[tazelbain]

Right so since it's Marvel, we are moving it from "Pitchforks" to "Wait and See" status. I can get behind that but let'ss be clear they are spend creditability here. They don't have to season 2 to turn it around.

[jgsugden]

I think Wheadon peaked as a writer a long time ago. Look no further than doll house. I don't know the premise is inherently uninspiring.

There was a pretty lengthy interview of him recently where he addresses Dollhouses issues.  The basic problem was that Fox was on board for them to get into the guts of the concept from the start, but when the network president balked, Fox did a 180 and stopped him from making the show he'd been planning to make.  Dollhouse did eventually find a path that worked, but the Dollhouse that was envisioned by Whedon never saw air.

And as for 'turning it around' - wtf?  There is no 180 needed on this show.  Minor course corrections are all that is in order.  Seriously, even with pacing issues, this was the best network pilot I've seen in a while for an hour long drama (anything that is not primarily a comedy is a drama - so this is going to be competing as a drama), and it showed me what I wanted to see to have absolute faith in the show.  I won't love every episode, I won't love every character, but I am going to enjoy the ride.  This was a pilot, and it had pilot problems, but it also had a lot right.

And does the show get more rope because it is Marvel?  Of course.  However, so far, it has no need of rope.

Seriously, this is a show that Marvel and Disney are heavily supporting, the show runner has a dedicated fan base that has grown every year (even when his shows are off air), they have amazing cross promotional opportunities with the movies, and they have scores of years of comics material to draw upon that will make people shiver in anticipation. 

[Threash]

I liked this show.

Me too, thought it was great.

[Lakov_Sanite]

People keep saying pilot as in the traditional sense of a pilot gets pitched to a network and then they decide later if they will pick it up or not.  I do not believe shield did that, I'm pretty sure they were green lit way before any filming started and therefore we won't see any huge shifts in quality throughout the season, for good or ill.

[jgsugden]

The pilot was Greenlit last summer.  The SERIES was greenlit this summer, but was considered a lock - after Marvel saw the dailies on the pilot.  This was a true pilot.  Everyone expected it to be good, but if it were horrible it would not have gone to series and something else would likely be in development in the MCU.

I think the pilot was very good for a pilot, but I'd have done a few things differently, although they're all minor beefs (except the first):

* I'd have split the pilot over two episodes so that I could slow it down.  An approach more like the Firefly pilot with slow introductions and incorporations would have been much better.
* Based only on the pilot, I'd have recast Skye.  However, I think the main problem was really just a ghost in the room.  Someone (I'm not sure if it was the actress or the director) was trying to shoehorn some Willow (or a 'cool version' of Willow) into the character and it wasn't in her wheelhouse.  I rewatched the pilot last night (while the wife weas getting her first view) and I really noticed this in her dress, her mannerisms, and her speech.  Regardless, having seen her in other stuff, I think they'll find her character and make it work.
* I'd have simplified the McGuffin element.  I get the idea, but they didn't have to force it all in at once. 

[Khaldun]

Dude, the reasons pilots are often different and usually worse than the show is not whether the show is greenlit or not. It's because it's the FIRST THING THEY MAKE. So often they don't have a great feel yet for what's working, what the cast chemistry is, and so on. Even some of my favorite shows ever took a good half-season to a full season to figure out some of that kind of thing.

[Hayduke]

Normally I'll give a show three or four episodes if the start is rocky.  But there's absolutely nothing redeeming about this pilot.  Comparing it to Buffy's pilot is ridiculous.  I can't remember a show in recent memory (like last 3-5 years or so) that had this kind of start and managed to make something good out of it.  This show is so lazy it's just a tacit admission that they threw up their hands and decided to hang everything on being tied to Marvel.

[Ghambit]

I'm holding out hope that Skye was intentionally weak.  Something will happen or be revealed later on that will somewhat explain the trainwreck of her character.  My first guess was that she's really a "poor little rich girl."  Hence the fine clothes, makeup, etc. (they could've written her as a grifter like on Leverage too). Also, let us not forget she was really adamant about wiping her bio.  Ideally, her whole persona is a farce; that'd be fuckin brilliant.  So yes, on the level I'm not impressed but I also hold out hope there's a reason the show is so blatantly pandering; there's gotta be a flipside.  Hopefully at that point she'll make it to the T&A thread.  

Zoolander-Assassin hopefully is a frickin robot.  That'd be the best future for him.  Either that or he dies.

[Nevermore]

Since Whedon is involved I'm expecting at least one of the cast to die at some point in the first season.

[Ghambit]

Yah, that'll be the black guy.

[Numtini]

This is horrifyingly bad.  I can't believe Arrow is better than this.

Yes, but Arrow is fantastic. This is merely great.

[Evildrider]

This is horrifyingly bad.  I can't believe Arrow is better than this.

Yes, but Arrow is fantastic. This is merely great.

This.  Arrow is probably one of the best superhero TV shows we've had.

[Numtini]

Arrow is not exactly hard on the eyes either.

[eldaec]

Dude, the reasons pilots are often different and usually worse than the show is not whether the show is greenlit or not. It's because it's the FIRST THING THEY MAKE. So often they don't have a great feel yet for what's working, what the cast chemistry is, and so on. Even some of my favorite shows ever took a good half-season to a full season to figure out some of that kind of thing.

This is why I never understand why TV people make episode 1 as the pilot.

Not only does it give the premiere bad acting and production values, it also fills the the first episode with unnecessary exposition. Filming a mid season episode first at least helps you work out what really needs explaining when you go back and film the first show.

[Evildrider]

Dude, the reasons pilots are often different and usually worse than the show is not whether the show is greenlit or not. It's because it's the FIRST THING THEY MAKE. So often they don't have a great feel yet for what's working, what the cast chemistry is, and so on. Even some of my favorite shows ever took a good half-season to a full season to figure out some of that kind of thing.

This is why I never understand why TV people make episode 1 as the pilot.

Not only does it give the premiere bad acting and production values, it also fills the the first episode with unnecessary exposition. Filming a mid season episode first at least helps you work out what really needs explaining when you go back and film the first show.

I'm assuming it's because they don't go into making a pilot with a whole season worth of scripts.  Besides you are going to have exec's and others that have no clue what your show is or what your characters are.  Hence why most pilots are the first episode of a show. 

[Khaldun]

It doesn't matter what you film first--a 'mid-season' episode or episode 1--the first thing you film is going to be the roughest work you have on offer, most of the time. It might also have some great ideas or a mood that you actually lose over time as the series meanders this way or that, of course. Both the original "pilot" of The Six Million Dollar Man and the first aired regular episode ("Population Zero") were a good deal grittier than the series--the pilot was much closer to Caidin's novel and the first episode concludes with Steve Austin killing the shit out of a van full of bad guys, something he rarely did later on. I liked that version better than the campy Bigfoot-laden show that came later, but that's the thing: whatever you make first is inevitably different. Lost's first four episodes are pretty different in mood and content than everything from season 2 on. Etc. You can't avoid it--which is why most people have learned not to assume too much about what a show is going to evolve into from the first thing made. The only time I think the pilot or first episode is a good guide to what comes later is when everything about the pilot is bad--when the setting is bad, the acting is bad, the storytelling is bad, the effects are bad, the characters are dumb, etc., when it's uniformly or almost entirely dumb and bad, it's not going to get better. Terra Nova, for example.

[Merusk]

Which is in large part because of how TV shows are written and how pilots in particular are written.  It's not like novels, where a single writer comes up with pages of backstory and notes and have a larger story they want to tell.  You get very defined and refined characters (that sometimes require editing down the line because early bits don't match later bits)

A TV show is an ongoing novel, edited and written in near-real-time by a team. The back story for a character might be a page, or a prior work (Coulson) but it's most likley a "this guy is trope xyz with this twist."   The details and personality come later as the show develops and that trope-with-a-twist is affected by the greater story arc.  Think about any character you know well and go watch the pilot for the series.  The rough outline is there but the characters is probably fairly unrecognizable because there's no details yet.  It's just a trope.  

For example, Picard was a "by the rules captiain" and Riker was "Handsome playboy hotshot who has a history with the telepath chick" in Encounter at Farpoint.  Worf is "Klingon who was adopted by humans and joined Starfleet."  nothing more. They're hollow, hollow, hollow.

The Pilot gets all the worst of this It's a concept you write and shoot to sell to executives.  Folks who are going to see 100 of these a year, minimum. Shit we never will see or hear of, they watch and decide on.  The pilot has to get a lot of this across to get pushed through to production and air, which means broad-strokes.

[jgsugden]

The key audience for a pilot is not the audience.  It is the executive.  If you don't sell it to the suits, you don't get a chance to sell it to the masses.

Here, Marvel wanted proof of concept.  They wanted to see Whedon do all the things that this show had to do.  They wanted to see the tech in action, they wanted fights, they wanted special effects, and they wanted character development.  And, most importantly, they wanted an end product that appealed to the casual fans and hard-core fans.  Basically, they had a marathon of things they wanted to see - and they only gave him 42 minutes to run it.  They had 42 minutes to cover dozens of key elements, each deserving 5 to 10 minutes of screen time to establish.  In spite of these challenges, which I think were greater in this episode than in a typical pilot, they had (mostly) witty dialogue and laid a lot of foundation. 

Of course, the executive wants a product that sells to the audience.  But if you build it just for the masses, and ignore any of the other elements the executive thinks it has to see to authorize the bill expenditures, you're dead in the water.  The executive comes first, even if it hurts the product the audience sees.  Here, Whedon had to take some shortcuts to make sure he had time for everything the suits needed in his 42 minutes.  Expect more from the next few episodes.

[MediumHigh]

If this had nothing to do with the avengers you guys would can.it on principle. Cough sleepy hollow (which is rather bad) cough.

[jgsugden]

If this had nothing to do with the avengers you guys would can.it on principle. Cough sleepy hollow (which is rather bad) cough.

If there were no Avengers, IM, Thor, Hulk or Cap movies, but this was still set in the Marvel Universe with the expectation that it would incorporate additional Marvel IP, and unlike Arrow, would not shy away from the fantastic?  And it was being done by Joss Whedon?

I'd be more excited.  I'd be adding in the excitement I had for Iron Man and Avengers to what I have for this show as this would be Marvel coming to life for the first time. 

However, if the same show were put together,  all Marvel IP were pulled out (and replaced with different names), and some random nobody (rather than Whedon) was running things but the show was otherwise the same: No, I would not be as excited.  I would not have the same expectations for the future. And I wouldn't be seeing the same things in the pilot because I wouldn't be looking for them.  However, I'd give it higher marks than Sleepy Hollow, Revolution, Arrow, Vampire Diaries, Dome, Falling Skies, the Cape, No Ordinary Family, Terra Nova, Undercovers, the Event, Nikita, Teen Wolf, Defiance, Alphas, Warehouse 13, Eureka, Supernatural, American Horror Story, Da Vinci's Demons, Fringe, Grimm, Cult, Being Human, 666 Park Avenue, Once Upon a Time, True Blood, Game of Thrones, and all the other 'genre'pilots I've seen in the past decade ... with the exception of Walking Dead (which got bonus points for really nailing the concept right off the bat) and Lost (which peaked in episode 1 IMHO).

[Lakov_Sanite]

Something on that list is not like the others. 

[jgsugden]

Something on that list is not like the others. 

There are a lot of things in that list that are distinct from the others... It was just a list of 'genre' pilots I'd rank behind the MAoS pilot, even if we were not relying upon the Marvel brand or Whedon name.  With those intact, this is likely the show that I've gone into with the highest expectations.

[Velorath]

Something on that list is not like the others. 

There are a lot of things in that list that are distinct from the others... It was just a list of 'genre' pilots I'd rank behind the MAoS pilot, even if we were not relying upon the Marvel brand or Whedon name.  With those intact, this is likely the show that I've gone into with the highest expectations.

I'm going to guess he was referring to Game of Thrones, which did struggle at the start with having to cram in all the characters and backstory, but is crazy to call worse than Agents of SHIELD. Actually I think True Blood had a good pilot as well, and it was just about everything after that which wasn't particularly good.  I personally haven't watched a single other show on that list so I can't comment on an of the others.

[eldaec]

Just saw this. It was OK.

Had a lot of bad pilot exposition sequences created because script writers don't trust execs, but it did OK.

Coulson as a clone? Really? 'I wasn't quite dead' was a way better plot. Also that plane struck me as a remarkably impractical way to move half a dozen people and some gear around the continental US.

Aside from that - it's fine. Way better than Arrow.