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Author Topic: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.  (Read 67793 times)
Velorath
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Reply #35 on: May 16, 2013, 04:17:25 PM

Comics themselves suffer from terrible continuity bloat and making up a whole new slew of characters for the tv show would be more of the same and just as detrimental to the franchises. I mean the movies are already going with guardians of the galaxy...seriously...

So... wouldn't that problem be the same regardless of whether they're creating new characters or just introducing characters from the comics?
Kageru
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Reply #36 on: May 16, 2013, 04:46:57 PM


There's a number of heroes with relatively low level powers, background conspiracies and secret "mysterious objects" that will eventually end up with the big guns battling over it. Lots of material barely hinted at that could be explored and developed. And a lot of that suits a slow and low key exposition that wouldn't work with the "popcorn and explosions" movie block-buster crowd.

Of course it all depends on the writing and character work.

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- Simond
luckton
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Reply #37 on: May 16, 2013, 05:07:28 PM

Here's to hoping this lasts longer than ABCs last super hero drama, No Ordinary Family   Ohhhhh, I see.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Evildrider
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Reply #38 on: May 16, 2013, 10:41:52 PM

Here's to hoping this lasts longer than ABCs last super hero drama, No Ordinary Family   Ohhhhh, I see.

All this stuff is under the Disney umbrella anyway isn't it?  With Marvel making huge money right now, I am betting that SHIELD gets a bit more leeway than other shows.  Especially if they want to keep Whedon somewhat happy.
palmer_eldritch
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Reply #39 on: May 17, 2013, 06:04:22 AM

I hope they just take any ideas they want to from the comics and ignore anything that gets in the way of the story they want to tell. The show has to work in its own right, it can't worry about Marvel continuity. I buy comics and I've never heard of half the characters you guys are talking about:) The average person watching the show won't buy comics at all.
luckton
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Reply #40 on: May 17, 2013, 06:11:11 AM

I hope they just take any ideas they want to from the comics and ignore anything that gets in the way of the story they want to tell. The show has to work in its own right, it can't worry about Marvel continuity. I buy comics and I've never heard of half the characters you guys are talking about:) The average person watching the show won't buy comics at all.

Exactly.  If they wanted to do something that was canon, you'll be damn sure it wouldn't be on prime local programming like ABC.  Maybe Scifi or Spike. 

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
MahrinSkel
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Reply #41 on: June 23, 2013, 02:35:25 AM

To be brutal, I'm more worried that they've cast a dead bloke.  I see that causing issues.
Because Nick Fury would never use a convenient lie to motivate his team of malcontents.

Just finished rewatching Avengers.  The two things that jumped out was that Loki always seems to wind up exactly where he wants while the people around him wish they hadn't gotten what they wanted, and Colson was conveniently off-screen when his death was announced.

--Dave

--Jello Biafra: "If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve."
Ironwood
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Reply #42 on: June 23, 2013, 02:39:53 AM

I no longer care.  They've already said 'Yeah, we brought him back'.  Exactly how they do that is of precisely no interest to me.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Khaldun
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Reply #43 on: June 23, 2013, 02:52:54 AM

Maria Hill does suggest in the film itself that there's some hanky-panky going on with the death announcement.

I'm still holding out for Damage Control to show up eventually--I think it's such a great concept especially for a more "realistic" approach to superheroes. They could introduce the law firm that specializes in superhero law from She-Hulk, also.
jgsugden
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Reply #44 on: July 23, 2013, 03:58:55 PM

If you look at Whedon's work, there is no way Coulson didn't die. 

From an in-story perspective: A friggin God shoved a hunk of metal through his chest.  This guy can punch through a stone wall and he couldn't shred a man's insides with a giant blade?

From a story telling perspective: Whedon takes death seriously.  If you walk back from death, you paid a price.  If you can just get up from a deadly blow, death holds no meaning.  The next time a hero dies, you'll wonder how long before they come back.  Go read Whedon quotes on the death of his characters.  No way he cheapens the sacrifice.

From a story development perspective: Looking at Marvel's tool house for SHIELD from the Comics, there is a long history of replacing someone with LMDs (Life Model Decoys).  They're incorporating the SHIELD tech into the movie and series (flying cars, helicarrier, etc...)  They have to make use of it.  They even reference the tech in Avengers (Stark mentions them in his tower banter).   

What is the show about?  Average people in a Super world.  What is a compelling story to tell in that world?  An ordinary person finding out he is not ordinary.

I'd be shocked if the story angle is not that Coulson is an LMD and doesn't know it, used to replace Coulson because he had key roles that can't just be filled by a replacement.   Well, maybe - just maybe - they could use that as the mislead.  But it will be a core story being told.

I miss Good Eats.  *Sniff*
Evildrider
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Reply #45 on: July 23, 2013, 05:07:05 PM

I'ts Agent Cloneson!
sickrubik
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Reply #46 on: July 23, 2013, 05:19:27 PM

I enjoyed this theory as to why Phil is around.

beer geek.
Trippy
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Reply #47 on: July 23, 2013, 05:24:29 PM

swamp poop
Khaldun
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Reply #48 on: July 24, 2013, 04:52:16 AM

Big bets that the season-long arc will involve some kind of return of/redesign of HYDRA.
Ironwood
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Reply #49 on: July 24, 2013, 04:57:52 AM

Excellent, then we can all do that double armed Heil Hydra Salute.

Because that wasn't retarded.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Merusk
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Reply #50 on: July 24, 2013, 05:28:44 AM

If you look at Whedon's work, there is no way Coulson didn't die. 

Yeah, he did, but it appears he's not a robot or clone or anything and it's not going to be resolved in the premier.

http://screenrant.com/agents-of-shield-coulson-explained-movie-tie-in/

Quote from Wiki re: Coulson and Whedon explaining it to one of the series creators:

Quote
Clark Gregg as Agent Phil Coulson: An agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. who oversees many of the division's field operations.[5] The character will headline the series.[6] At the 2013 South by Southwest festival, Joss Whedon confirmed that Coulson is alive in the series, despite his apparent death at the hands of Loki in Marvel's The Avengers.[7] When describing his character's return from the dead, Gregg said, "When Joss described to me the mystery...and the complexity and the unanswered questions about Phil Coulson standing there trying to deal with this, I found it so fascinating and so true to the world of the comics and mythology in general as I understand them that I was immediately in."[8]

In another article Whedon also points out that he does have a history of bringing characters back.  (And makes a joke how his first piece of work was focused entirely on that.  e.g. Ripley.)

I can't get past the panties - Alluvian
I really like the cocks. - Lantyssa
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Teleku
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Reply #51 on: July 24, 2013, 05:55:33 AM

Turns out to be a skrull.  You heard it here first!

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
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sickrubik
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Reply #52 on: July 24, 2013, 08:07:53 AM

A skrull with REALLY WEIRD motivations.

I'm also not sure the skrulls and the chitauri can exist in the same universe. Well, I suppose they CAN of course.

beer geek.
Trippy
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Reply #53 on: July 24, 2013, 08:11:10 AM

The simple answer is that they used the Cosmic Cube to bring him back to life.
Ironwood
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Reply #54 on: July 24, 2013, 08:19:48 AM

The simple answer is 'A Wizard Did It'.


"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Riggswolfe
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Reply #55 on: July 24, 2013, 08:23:22 AM

The simplest answer is we never see him actually die and we only have Nick Fury's word to go on.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
sickrubik
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Reply #56 on: July 24, 2013, 08:43:09 AM

The simple answer is 'A Wizard Did It'.

Whoah, wait, so now we have Dr. Strange involved?

The simplest answer is we never see him actually die and we only have Nick Fury's word to go on.

And Nick Fury never ever lies or hides the complete truth. Ever. Never ever.

(This is also my theory.)

beer geek.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #57 on: July 24, 2013, 08:59:45 AM

When it comes to narrative, the "clone that doe not know he is a clone" has a lot of mileage.  I think that's probably the best way they can do this since it gives a lot more depth to the character and allows room for growth later on.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
jgsugden
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Reply #58 on: July 24, 2013, 09:33:42 AM

Note that if they're trying to sell us that Coulson is alive before an LMD reveal, they'd have toi say he is alive in the press now. 

An additional point to contribute: Joss and I are of an age in many ways.  We grew up reading the same comics and seeing the same stories.  We have an affinity for the same era of Marvel stories.  He is a bit older than me, but when I got into comics, I was given a 10 year old collection of Marvel stuff.  If you go back to see what SHIELD was when Joss was in his formative years, you're going to see LMDs everywhere. 

And, in a show about what it means to be human in an increasingly inhuman world, I can't see Joss passing up the chance to have the character that is the voice of humanity question his own humanity. 

I miss Good Eats.  *Sniff*
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Reply #59 on: July 24, 2013, 10:06:05 AM

Note that if they're trying to sell us that Coulson is alive before an LMD reveal, they'd have toi say he is alive in the press now. 

They did. Read the article I linked.

Quote
As for when well find out about that burning question concerning how Coulson made his way back to the land of the living, Gregg doesnt seem to indicate that well get a clear resolution anytime soon.

   
Quote
Hes back. Hes thinks he knows how hes back. Well have to see

I can't get past the panties - Alluvian
I really like the cocks. - Lantyssa
People rarely believe just how good I am at sucking. - Lantyssa
I love the swinging dongs - Signe
Ironwood
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Reply #60 on: July 24, 2013, 12:47:05 PM

The simple answer is 'A Wizard Did It'.

Whoah, wait, so now we have Dr. Strange involved?

God that made me laugh more than it should've.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Margalis
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Reply #61 on: July 24, 2013, 02:28:03 PM

From a story telling perspective: Whedon takes death seriously.  If you walk back from death, you paid a price.  If you can just get up from a deadly blow, death holds no meaning.  The next time a hero dies, you'll wonder how long before they come back.  Go read Whedon quotes on the death of his characters.  No way he cheapens the sacrifice.

Aren't Angel and Buffy full of characters who die and come back, including both Angel and Buffy? (I just read on a random website that Buffy died twice!)

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
sickrubik
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Reply #62 on: July 24, 2013, 02:46:44 PM

From a story telling perspective: Whedon takes death seriously.  If you walk back from death, you paid a price.  If you can just get up from a deadly blow, death holds no meaning.  The next time a hero dies, you'll wonder how long before they come back.  Go read Whedon quotes on the death of his characters.  No way he cheapens the sacrifice.

Aren't Angel and Buffy full of characters who die and come back, including both Angel and Buffy? (I just read on a random website that Buffy died twice!)

The first Buffy death isn't really a sacrifice. The second one was and worked well. But, Joss has also just straight up killed people too.

beer geek.
jgsugden
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Reply #63 on: July 24, 2013, 03:43:13 PM

Note that if they're trying to sell us that Coulson is alive before an LMD reveal, they'd have toi say he is alive in the press now. 

They did. Read the article I linked.
Kind of my point... them saying he's alive is not evidence that he is alive because they'd need to say it is they do a mislead...

As for the Buffy Deaths:

Buffy dies twice.  Both really screw with the character.  She doesn't get up, brush the dust off and say, "No biggie.. let's recruit some more Scoobies."   She freaks out and has real trouble adjusting to being alive after dying.  I don't recall Angel dying.

If you watched Buffy and Angel over the seasons when the show was on TV, I think you'd agree that Whedon's approach to death is that it must mean something huge.  You don't kill a character unless it changes the show.  There is no chance Coulson's death is just a ruse by Fury. 

I miss Good Eats.  *Sniff*
Nevermore
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Reply #64 on: July 24, 2013, 03:48:05 PM

I don't recall Angel dying.

Spike is the one that died, not Angel.  Well, I guess technically Angel died when he became a vampire but that doesn't count.

Over and out.
Ironwood
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Reply #65 on: July 24, 2013, 03:51:08 PM

He was kinda meant to die when Buffy threw him into that Acla, swallower of worlds, demon.

He got better.

Turned out it was just a big swallowy prison.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
sickrubik
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Reply #66 on: July 24, 2013, 03:56:05 PM

Buffy actually had one of the single greatest episodes around a death that is still one of the best hours of television. And the death lasted and really fucked her up. (Not her own death.)

beer geek.
MahrinSkel
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Reply #67 on: July 24, 2013, 05:38:36 PM

Buffy actually had one of the single greatest episodes around a death that is still one of the best hours of television. And the death lasted and really fucked her up. (Not her own death.)
Her mom, right?  Although there were other deaths that stuck and were major events (whatshername, Willow's girlfriend, for example).  Yeah, in Whedon plots, deaths of non redshirts are generally treated as significant events, and resurrections are always more than just ways to keep a character around through handwaving.

--Dave

--Jello Biafra: "If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve."
Khaldun
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Reply #68 on: July 24, 2013, 06:29:44 PM

Look, in long-term serial fiction almost nobody stays dead. It's a miracle that Bucky stayed dead as long as he did. It's a miracle that Uncle Ben is still dead in Marvel Comics. It's a miracle that Thomas and Martha Wayne, barring a few alternate-universe and villain sidebars, are still dead.

Any story that lasts X amount of time will contain a nearly 100% number of resurrections unless it is unabashedly focused on the passage of time in a semi-realistic way, like Michener's Centennial. If your serial fiction is focused on the same set of characters, almost none of them will permanently die unless they die at the absolute end of the story or they died before it ever began.
jgsugden
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Reply #69 on: July 24, 2013, 07:50:35 PM

That is our point... Whedon doesn't treat death so casually. Coulson's death had significance, and he won't wave a hand over it and diminish that significance. As S.H.I.E.L.D. brought him back, and they can' t do magic, he didn't really come back.  It has to be an LMD.

I miss Good Eats.  *Sniff*
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