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Paelos
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Reply #105 on: June 03, 2013, 02:26:30 PM

Not to start up the same old argument but... I'm sorry you don't realize that some people like playing Diablo (all the versions) as freaking single players games.

I totally realize that. There should have been an option to play offline without the AH in my mind. I believe they didn't put it in there because they were terrified of offline dupes hitting the real servers, but frankly that logic is laughable considering the real duping already going on.

But that's a completely different point about the game. That's asking for a gameplay mode that never existed. If it ever comes to exist, then we could judge it on that merit. Currently, absolutely nothing they do other than adding that mode will satisfy that fanbase, so it's not really worth them evaluating the current game, or making changes for them in the game other than adding that mode.

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Reply #106 on: June 03, 2013, 02:31:47 PM

Malakill : I play games for fun. Not as exercises of willpower to force myself to not take the easiest road to winning.

And with that, I'm out of here. I've no desire to read all the 10,000 reasons Diablo 3 is awesome, yet again.
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Reply #107 on: June 03, 2013, 02:37:27 PM

Malakill : I play games for fun. Not as exercises of willpower to force myself to not take the easiest road to winning.

And with that, I'm out of here. I've no desire to read all the 10,000 reasons Diablo 3 is awesome, yet again.

Ok. Nobody said that though. In fact, I was pointing out exactly how the game needs to improve itemization. But yeah, you're making the same point from a year ago that this apple isn't the orange you wanted, and it never was.

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Reply #108 on: June 03, 2013, 03:00:25 PM

Malakill : I play games for fun. Not as exercises of willpower to force myself to not take the easiest road to winning.

And with that, I'm out of here. I've no desire to read all the 10,000 reasons Diablo 3 is awesome, yet again.

Ok. Nobody said that though. In fact, I was pointing out exactly how the game needs to improve itemization. But yeah, you're making the same point from a year ago that this apple isn't the orange you wanted, and it never was.

To be fair, I did kind of say that. 
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Reply #109 on: June 03, 2013, 03:19:49 PM

Jerk, you ruined my point. why so serious?

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Reply #110 on: June 03, 2013, 07:47:03 PM

Malakill : I play games for fun. Not as exercises of willpower to force myself to not take the easiest road to winning.

This attitude makes no sense to me, and I am pretty sure you and I are usually on the same page gaming-wise. If you don't want to use the AH, don't use it. The gameplay is the same with or without it. If your goal is fun, and the AH makes the game not fun for you, why is there any willpower involved?


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Reply #111 on: June 03, 2013, 08:00:30 PM

To me, making a game deliberately harder is not fun, so I gravitate toward the path of least resistance. Except in this case, the path of least resistance is buying upgrades instead of getting them via drops; this is also not fun. Met with this dilemma, I opt to play POE instead. The game would have been better without the AH, because then "use the drops you find" would be the natural way to acquire gear; exceptionally good items would still be traded, but that wouldn't be the norm.

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Reply #112 on: June 04, 2013, 04:13:33 AM

Facepalm

Malakili, mate, I'm not doing this with you in ANOTHER thread.


I'm sorry you didn't realize you could trade for good loot in Diablo 2 and the most of the stuff you were (apparently) using was actually trash.

Nope, still not doing it.  Nice try though.

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Reply #113 on: June 04, 2013, 05:55:11 AM

To me, making a game deliberately harder is not fun, so I gravitate toward the path of least resistance. Except in this case, the path of least resistance is buying upgrades instead of getting them via drops; this is also not fun. Met with this dilemma, I opt to play POE instead. The game would have been better without the AH, because then "use the drops you find" would be the natural way to acquire gear; exceptionally good items would still be traded, but that wouldn't be the norm.

I don't get the bolded part. What is fundamentally different about trading for gear/getting it all from drops vs. buying it from the AH? Why is upgrading your character through the AH not fun? On one hand, you're saving up gold to buy an awesome piece of loot then owning monsters that were giving you trouble before, and then on the other, you're getting lucky on a nice drop and equipping it to own monsters that were giving you trouble before. They're the same thing, at least to me. You earn the gold you get by selling drops, looting it from monsters, completing quests- then you trade that gold in for better equipment. This sounds remarkably like single player. If anything, the AH is so impersonal it's very very easy to pretend D3 IS a single player game.

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Reply #114 on: June 04, 2013, 06:07:20 AM

Um, you don't see the difference between finding something and shopping ?

Really ?

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Reply #115 on: June 04, 2013, 06:33:51 AM

Yea, I got nothing. If you don't see how those are fundamentally different, I don't know what to say.

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Reply #116 on: June 04, 2013, 06:52:20 AM

The fundamental difference between those two things is the difference between slot machines and doing a menial job.

Infrequent, random rewards are highly addictive. This has been known to psychology and the entire gambling industry for a long, long time. Flipping burgers for minimum wage is tedious, soul-destroying and not even vaguely addictive.

Having an awesome item drop randomly from killing mobs in a game is exciting, fun, addictive. Grinding millions of mobs for pittances of gold each to be able, after hours & days, to afford a predictable upgrade from the AH is none of those things.

The AH is part of the problem with D3, the poor itemisation is part of the problem, the primary-stat-above-all design is part of the problem, the groan-inducingly bad writing is part of the problem. I don't get why so many of you seem to insist that there's ONLY ONE PROBLEM WITH D3 and then proceed to argue with each other for pages and pages and pages about which precise problem it is. Diablo 3 is fucked in several ways. If you enjoy it then that's fine, carry on playing it. Why you feel the need to repeatedly try and tell those who don't like it that they're wrong I do not know.

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Reply #117 on: June 04, 2013, 07:06:33 AM

To defend myself, and pretty much everyone here, I don't think anyone's doing that.

What we're arguing about is the BIGGEST problem.

This game is utter shite, I think on that we can all agree.

 Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly? why so serious? Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

But you're entirely right about the shopping thing.  Well done.

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Reply #118 on: June 04, 2013, 07:34:38 AM

Yea, I got nothing. If you don't see how those are fundamentally different, I don't know what to say.

I guess I am broken then. I liken it to saving up badges in WoW.. although, you do get a chance for random drops there in addition to the vendor sold items. I see what you're saying in regards to the gambling thing.

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Reply #119 on: June 04, 2013, 07:48:01 AM

That's an additional, rather than a substitution though.

In the case of Diablo, the gambling bit is not only hugely infrequent, but also regularly results in utter bullshit in comparison to the Shops.

With WoW, you have an actually hugely high chance to get a nice purple drop (don't start, it's comparatively a massive chance) and if you don't you get a wee token that says 'there, there, never mind, keep playing and here's a part of your guaranteed item.'

Gold is no substitution, especially given inflation.  Imagine in WoW if you got a nice token for an item and when you went to cash in you found that due to the other players, it now cost 6000 tokens rather than 30.

You'd be fucking ballistic.  And rightly so.

This is the problem with what you're saying :  I can get a 'nice item' through hours and hours of rather boring play and then instantly compare it to an AH item to be made to feel hugely inferior.  Suddenly, my nice wee drop turns out to be utter shite.  And, worse than that, it can be the case that the better item is actually about half the playtime to get in gold or, more usually, utterly fucking unobtainable except through months of grinding cash.


There's a LOT of psychology involved here which is why it fucking bothers me when utter retards just dismiss all that with 'You're Playing It Wrong, This Is How I Personally Always Played, So It's Great'.  That's hugely unhelpful, especially when Blizzard admit they screwed the pooch themselves.

It's like me going to a whorehouse with nothing but watersports available.  The Piss Fetishist is sitting wallowing in the urine and can't understand why it's not my favourite whorehouse.  Get bent.

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Reply #120 on: June 04, 2013, 09:14:14 AM

I do admit I get my slot machine fix by finding deals on the AH, in addition to finding legendary drops in game. However, all of my gear is paid for and crafted at this point.

The game to me is different because I enjoy the economics of it. I enjoy being a trading tycoon. Plus selling stuff back on the RMAH has been paying for my steam budget now. I would recommend offloading excess gold on the RMAH on Mondays. For some reason there's usually a price spike. It had been trading around .31 per 10m, but I sold a bunch at .33 yesterday.

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Reply #121 on: June 04, 2013, 09:16:17 AM

I'm with Ingmar. If a person doesn't want to use the AH, nobody has to. This game can be played like a singleplayer game.

Although, I do understand the itemization problem.  Too many shit drops and not enough decent ones. They should up the gold rate and drop the number of trash drops.  But I never got any fantastic drops in D2 either, which also seemed quite rare to me. I think I only played through D2 once and didn't get through the second iteration.

Compared to where this game was in July, meaning that I could not advance my character in any way that I wanted to (decent gear was out of reach even on the AH since I refuse to pay cash for gear or gold), and I hit a wall, it's fun again, because I can actually play my characters.

I tried playing my 60 monk last night. Didn't change a thing on her - didn't buy gear, didn't change spec, nothing, just started to play, and wow, what a difference. Instead of having to kite every elite and barely surviving Act I Inferno, it was fun.

My WD is stuck on Inferno Diablo at the moment. (Still using the same spec I had leveled up on - zombie bears and frogs mostly; going to have to switch out to something that kills faster/better, or group up).

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Reply #122 on: June 04, 2013, 09:18:50 AM

I do admit I get my slot machine fix by finding deals on the AH, in addition to finding legendary drops in game. However, all of my gear is paid for and crafted at this point.

The game to me is different because I enjoy the economics of it. I enjoy being a trading tycoon. Plus selling stuff back on the RMAH has been paying for my steam budget now. I would recommend offloading excess gold on the RMAH on Mondays. For some reason there's usually a price spike. It had been trading around .31 per 10m, but I sold a bunch at .33 yesterday.

Wow.

I thought I was doing good selling level 4 chest pieces for 100k.

One big difference now from a year ago is that there's not nearly as much good gear for leveling up to be found, even on the AH.
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Reply #123 on: June 04, 2013, 09:28:35 AM

I do admit I get my slot machine fix by finding deals on the AH, in addition to finding legendary drops in game. However, all of my gear is paid for and crafted at this point.

The game to me is different because I enjoy the economics of it. I enjoy being a trading tycoon. Plus selling stuff back on the RMAH has been paying for my steam budget now. I would recommend offloading excess gold on the RMAH on Mondays. For some reason there's usually a price spike. It had been trading around .31 per 10m, but I sold a bunch at .33 yesterday.

Yeah.  A surprising quote from the Accountant there.   Ohhhhh, I see.

 why so serious?

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Reply #124 on: June 04, 2013, 09:33:17 AM

Oh, I have a question maybe someone can answer. Crafting. What is worth crafting for my heroes to wear?

I have about 20 demonic essences from playing through inferno and a bunch of tomes of secrets.  I'm not finding legendaries so far, despite what says 100% magic find (since I played for long stretches so got the 5 stacks of whatever that buff is).

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Reply #125 on: June 04, 2013, 09:36:44 AM

Oh, I have a question maybe someone can answer. Crafting. What is worth crafting for my heroes to wear?

I have about 20 demonic essences from playing through inferno and a bunch of tomes of secrets.  I'm not finding legendaries so far, despite what says 100% magic find (since I played for long stretches so got the 5 stacks of whatever that buff is).



Magic find is near useless until you have like 250% unbuffed and then push it over 300 with the buff stacks.

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Reply #126 on: June 04, 2013, 09:39:34 AM


Magic find is near useless until you have like 250% unbuffed and then push it over 300 with the buff stacks.

Oh, silly me; I thought 100% is as high as it could go.
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Reply #127 on: June 04, 2013, 09:47:41 AM

I played D3 for 6 weeks and never saw a legendary or a unique.  I was in groups every time I could find one, and played with the wife as well, so there were large numbers of mobs dying.

I then played TorchlightII and saw at least 5 before hitting level 15, several of which were useful even if they didn't pump my primary stat.   

That says all it needed to about D3 for me.

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Reply #128 on: June 04, 2013, 09:55:09 AM

Yeah.  A surprising quote from the Accountant there.   Ohhhhh, I see.

 why so serious?

Want to see my spreadsheets?  why so serious?

Xanthippe, I ended up making a couple billion in gold before they exchanged the gold pricing because there was a huge gap between gems and gold price. You could sell small amounts of gold for .25 per million as that was the floor, then you could buy gems and trade them back into the system for essentially .06 per million. The key was being patient enough to get the gold to sell at the inflated price, which many weren't. At that point I had to move into my more recent venture, which is flipping items that hit a certain stat gap. Example, a chestpiece with 150 str 150 vit 3 sockets and 70 AR may sell for a ton, however there may be a 50% gold price gap by someone selling at 10 points less in str and vit. You can flip the item in that gap.

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Reply #129 on: June 04, 2013, 10:13:52 AM

Oh, I have a question maybe someone can answer. Crafting. What is worth crafting for my heroes to wear?

I have about 20 demonic essences from playing through inferno and a bunch of tomes of secrets.  I'm not finding legendaries so far, despite what says 100% magic find (since I played for long stretches so got the 5 stacks of whatever that buff is).



The crafting recipes which drop in Inferno all craft really solid items (gloves, amulet, bracers, shoulders).  You can buy the recipes really cheap on the AH these days if you don't have them already.  Getting a Hellfire ring is also worth doing, but that's a bit of a different story.
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Reply #130 on: June 04, 2013, 11:56:12 AM

I'm with Ingmar. If a person doesn't want to use the AH, nobody has to. This game can be played like a singleplayer game.

The problem is it can't, at least it couldn't at release.

The reason I quit wasn't because the Auction House itself, the reason was because the itemization was balanced around the auction house.  I beat the first difficulty mode rarely ever getting a drop that was the same level as me.  I would go many many levels without getting anything worth putting on, everything just ended up vendored because it was 5-10 levels below me and crappier than gear I bought 15 levels ago on the Auction house.

They balanced the game where almost all items you got were for levels lower than your current spot, unless you got crazy lucky and got 1 or 2 good drops for your level.  This meant there was zero gear progression felt, and all drops were literally there just to vendor so you can buy gear you need.  Unless you 100% neglected the auction house, and in that case you are constantly gimped for your level and have to farm lower level areas to have an easier time at higher level areas.

They balanced around the auction house, and that balance is what made the game not fun.
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Reply #131 on: June 04, 2013, 12:05:34 PM

I'm with Ingmar. If a person doesn't want to use the AH, nobody has to. This game can be played like a singleplayer game.

The problem is it can't, at least it couldn't at release.

The reason I quit wasn't because the Auction House itself, the reason was because the itemization was balanced around the auction house.  I beat the first difficulty mode rarely ever getting a drop that was the same level as me.  I would go many many levels without getting anything worth putting on, everything just ended up vendored because it was 5-10 levels below me and crappier than gear I bought 15 levels ago on the Auction house.

They balanced the game where almost all items you got were for levels lower than your current spot, unless you got crazy lucky and got 1 or 2 good drops for your level.  This meant there was zero gear progression felt, and all drops were literally there just to vendor so you can buy gear you need.  Unless you 100% neglected the auction house, and in that case you are constantly gimped for your level and have to farm lower level areas to have an easier time at higher level areas.

They balanced around the auction house, and that balance is what made the game not fun.

The only part of the game you couldn't play while ignoring the AH at release was Inferno; if I could do it with a gimped pet-spec witch doctor, anyone could do it. You didn't get drops your level because you were outleveling the content. I'm not actually sure why they did it that way, it seems to have caused a lot of confusion. I hit level 60 in like Act 1 or 2 of Hell. If they had the XP curve tuned so it roughly matched the item drops the cognitive dissonance people have over "oh no, I am level 40 but my rares are all level 30" would vanish.

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Reply #132 on: June 04, 2013, 12:07:51 PM

Oh, silly me; I thought 100% is as high as it could go.
It's the percent chance of the percent chance to find an item, rather than your total chance of finding something.

So 250% of a (theoretical) base 10% chance is a 25% magic find.  Or 2.5% if the base is 1%.

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Reply #133 on: June 04, 2013, 12:10:59 PM

That was a weird way to explain it!

Magic find increases your base chance to find a magic item by <magic find percentage>. I think the base chance is variable depending on the sort of monster it is, etc.

Now that I looked it up, its significantly more complicated than that.

- It makes magic items more likely to drop
- It makes the ones that do drop better
- base chance to drop a given type of magic item varies by monster and there are several different rolls, and your magic find applies to every roll

So, thinking of it in percentage terms at all is probably a waste. You just want a big number. (300% is the cap from gear/paragon levels but you get bonuses for monster power and nephalem valor that can exceed it.)
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 12:14:48 PM by Ingmar »

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Reply #134 on: June 04, 2013, 12:19:46 PM

Yes, the increase of the cap on better items is what made MP10 more attractive.

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Reply #135 on: June 04, 2013, 01:43:39 PM

I'm sure Xan will be happy with the linear equation rather than the polynomial.

Moar good.  Less sad.

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Reply #136 on: June 04, 2013, 05:28:19 PM

That was a weird way to explain it!

Magic find increases your base chance to find a magic item by <magic find percentage>. I think the base chance is variable depending on the sort of monster it is, etc.

Now that I looked it up, its significantly more complicated than that.

- It makes magic items more likely to drop
- It makes the ones that do drop better
- base chance to drop a given type of magic item varies by monster and there are several different rolls, and your magic find applies to every roll

So, thinking of it in percentage terms at all is probably a waste. You just want a big number. (300% is the cap from gear/paragon levels but you get bonuses for monster power and nephalem valor that can exceed it.)
[Citation Needed]

http://www.diablofans.com/topic/57939-magic-find-and-its-efficiency-a-statistical-insight/

Oh, I have a question maybe someone can answer. Crafting. What is worth crafting for my heroes to wear?

I have about 20 demonic essences from playing through inferno and a bunch of tomes of secrets.  I'm not finding legendaries so far, despite what says 100% magic find (since I played for long stretches so got the 5 stacks of whatever that buff is).

Go buy the plans to craft the Bracers (Razorspikes of Int/Dex/Str) and Shoulders (Archon Spaulders of Int/Vit/Dex/Str). The plans are nearly free (15-20k) and the mats will run you 75-80k + the essence. I managed to make some very good ones in like 10 tries each, you can see them on my wizard. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Ray-1555/hero/2889702

Why shoulders and bracers? In both cases you only really care about your main stat, life, and some mitigation (& crit in bracers, if you're greedy). With the main stat guaranteed, getting two of the other 5 rolls to be useful isn't so unlikely. With gloves and amulets however, you are looking for the trifecta of critical hit chance, crit damage, attack speed, plus the int/dex/str, and then hopefully some life, or mitigation or + damage. A much harder roll, and one I have not gotten after nearly a 100 goes.

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Reply #137 on: June 04, 2013, 05:31:16 PM

That was a weird way to explain it!

Magic find increases your base chance to find a magic item by <magic find percentage>. I think the base chance is variable depending on the sort of monster it is, etc.

Now that I looked it up, its significantly more complicated than that.

- It makes magic items more likely to drop
- It makes the ones that do drop better
- base chance to drop a given type of magic item varies by monster and there are several different rolls, and your magic find applies to every roll

So, thinking of it in percentage terms at all is probably a waste. You just want a big number. (300% is the cap from gear/paragon levels but you get bonuses for monster power and nephalem valor that can exceed it.)
[Citation Needed]

http://www.diablofans.com/topic/57939-magic-find-and-its-efficiency-a-statistical-insight/
 

I was working from http://www.diablowiki.net/Magic_find

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Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
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Reply #138 on: June 05, 2013, 03:29:39 PM


Go buy the plans to craft the Bracers (Razorspikes of Int/Dex/Str) and Shoulders (Archon Spaulders of Int/Vit/Dex/Str). The plans are nearly free (15-20k) and the mats will run you 75-80k + the essence. I managed to make some very good ones in like 10 tries each, you can see them on my wizard. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Ray-1555/hero/2889702


Yeah, can I just say 'holy fuck' to that gear ?  On all the chars ?

Store bought ?

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Reply #139 on: June 05, 2013, 03:43:24 PM

More examples, but not as nice; the shoulders, gloves, and bracers on my witch doctor are all crafted by me: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Thorgrim-1313/hero/589774

I think everything I have except the Zunimassa pieces are from drops, but I don't remember for sure - most of it is, in any case. The Zunimassa pieces all were bought with the money I made selling some demon hunter set boots that dropped.

With how Inferno is tuned now I'm certain I could have done it without using the AH, it isn't like I'm slathered in attack speed/crit stuff as it is.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
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