Sidekicking comes to EQ2

[shiznitz]

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=pround&message.id=1506#M1506

To summarize, higher level player becomes the same effective level as the lower level player. Lower level player gets an exp bonus. Higher level player can get access to quest items that have greyed out. Higher level player loses skills/spells with mentoring, but equipment functions normally.

[jpark]

I can smell panic.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=1289.0

[jpark]

I can smell panic.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=1289.0

This is not actually sidekicking though - it is the other one used in CoH - Exemplar.  Sidekicking would allow an apprentice to be fight at a higher level.  This mechanic in EQ2 is the reverse.  CoH has both.

EDIT: Blast, it is really a pain not having the "delete" function on posts.

[shiznitz]

Ok, so technically it isn't sidekicking, but if they can do high -> low, they can do low -> high. However, knowing SOEs love of gating content, that isn't likely even in this new era of "trying to make our games, you know, fun" that they seem to have entered.

[jpark]

Agreed.  Thanks for this update though - interesting.

[HaemishM]

I don't think they could get away with actual sideckicking, since it seems like a lot of the higher level content IS gated, with either level requirements or access quests.

But it does smell like teen desperation to me.

[El Gallo]

I like SoE as the "we just got whipped by a new product and are busting our asses to make sweet, sweet  money" company much better than I liked them as the "we have a stranglehold on the industry, send in your ten dollars little man, my Porche needs a performance upgrade" company.

[kaid]

Desperation or not my guild loves the idea and I hope it works well in practice. We have some really oddly spaced players now with a few around level 35 but most in their late 20s. This allows those who have time energy to get higher to still go and enjoy hunting with the rest of the guildies when they are on.

Anything that makes it easier for friends to play with friends is a good thing in my book.

kaid

[jpark]

Desperation or not my guild loves the idea and I hope it works well in practice. We have some really oddly spaced players now with a few around level 35 but most in their late 20s. This allows those who have time energy to get higher to still go and enjoy hunting with the rest of the guildies when they are on.

Anything that makes it easier for friends to play with friends is a good thing in my book.

kaid

Absolutely.  That's what I don't get:  In EQ, in theory, if you were half the person's level you could group and get some experience.  In EQ2 if the difference exceeds 6 levels you're screwed.  This corrects a step backward from what was a better EQ formula.

[Strazos]

I thought it was 7 lvls in EQ....


I won't care about EQ2 until they fix that bug....you know, that bug that corrupts the SuperFunTimeYeah!!.exe file.

[Kageru]

No, it's half the persons level. WoW is also really permissive in that way. I was grouping with L40's at L60, fighting mobs grey to me, and they were getting XP out of it. Having a long level grind with extremely tight demands on grouping is just not a good idea (FFIX was even worse I believe).

[Alkiera]

I thought it was 7 lvls in EQ....


I won't care about EQ2 until they fix that bug....you know, that bug that corrupts the SuperFunTimeYeah!!.exe file.

When I last played EQ, last year or so, the grouping range was pretty huge...  Something like low person had to be at least 2/3 of high person's level.  So a lvl 40 could group with 60's, and get exp.  Just stay out of the AE's, and for Brell's sake don't get hit.

Alkiera

[Polysorbate80]

Two thirds is a good rule of thumb.  I believe any rounding works in favor of the lower-level character; i.e. if you're level 25, your max should be 38 (25 x 1.5 = 37.5, rounded up)

There is a little oddness to whatever the actual system is...for instance I think a level 42 can group with a 65 max (not 63) but I can't swear to it.  I'm pretty sure it worked when I tried it, much to my surprise.

[Joe]

I can smell panic.

Explain to me again why adding a feature people like is panic.

Oh no! They're listening to what the customer wants! The ship must REALLY be sinking now!

[Stephen Zepp]

I can smell panic.

Explain to me again why adding a feature people like is panic.

Oh no! They're listening to what the customer wants! The ship must REALLY be sinking now!

Because the issue, and the specific solution has been requested since what, 1999 or so (EQ1), and they finally implement it once they see it work in a competitor's game.

The only (observable) incident that could be causal for this change is the presence of the feature in a competitor's game, and that game doing well, combined with the inertia WoW and other competitor's have gained. That implies a fundamental perception/emotional change on the part of EQ/EQ2, and that could be construed to be panic. Personally, I don't think it's panic, but I do think it's of the category of "oh shit, we don't have the MMOG market locked anymore, looks like we need to start paying attention to what our competitors are doing".

[jpark]

I can smell panic.

Explain to me again why adding a feature people like is panic.

Oh no! They're listening to what the customer wants! The ship must REALLY be sinking now!

In this case it is borderline to call it "panic" - so I was having some fun I admit.

/Vulture on.

The dribble Smedley sent out commenting on the the future of MMORPGs - that was panic.  /Pizza is panic.

In this instance, however, I'm having a good time.

/Vulture off.

[shiznitz]

In the latest test server update, SOE is backing away from the locked encounter system somewhat. Not really clear on the details from the description, but it seems like they want people to be able to help groups in trouble.

- Encounter behavior has been changed such that if an encounter breaks and would have reset (and respawned the same encounter), it will now check if it was overpowered or overmatched and, if not, it will instead unbreak and become a viable target for a short period of time. If the encounter is killed successfully during that period of time, players will receive all of the original encounter bonus and some portion of the loot.

Right now, once an encounter is engaged, if the engaging group broke the encounter and fled, the mobs are zero exp for anyone who happens along to clean it up/help.

[jpark]

In the latest test server update, SOE is backing away from the locked encounter system somewhat. Not really clear on the details from the description, but it seems like they want people to be able to help groups in trouble.

- Encounter behavior has been changed such that if an encounter breaks and would have reset (and respawned the same encounter), it will now check if it was overpowered or overmatched and, if not, it will instead unbreak and become a viable target for a short period of time. If the encounter is killed successfully during that period of time, players will receive all of the original encounter bonus and some portion of the loot.

Right now, once an encounter is engaged, if the engaging group broke the encounter and fled, the mobs are zero exp for anyone who happens along to clean it up/help.

Again about time.  They have to dump this whole system. 

[Sky]

Explain to me again why adding a feature people like is panic.

Because it's SOE.

That encounter system - half the reason I'll not play EQ2 (group-only mobs the other half). It's funny that the game that ostensibly fosters more forced grouping uses systems unfriendly toward meeting strangers, like helping in combat, drive-by heals/buffs, etc.

[jpark]

Explain to me again why adding a feature people like is panic.

Because it's SOE.

That encounter system - half the reason I'll not play EQ2 (group-only mobs the other half). It's funny that the game that ostensibly fosters more forced grouping uses systems unfriendly toward meeting strangers, like helping in combat, drive-by heals/buffs, etc.

Sky just summed it up. 

* begins to circle around the carcas *

EQ2 is supposed to be more "intimate".  I think they confused "intimate" with "insular".  EQ2 has that air of "Fuck you stranger".  That is really the attitude indirectly fostered by these anti-community mechanics that are meant to protect this game from folks burning through the content or powerleveling.  These concerns were voiced before the game was actually released by folks I met in EQ who had no intention of going to EQ2.

/Vulture off.

[shiznitz]

I don't disagree with that. I came to EQ2 with about 2 dozen EQ people so it hasn't been much of an issue for me personally. However, I haven't made a single new "EQ buddy" in EQ2. Sure, I have met some nice people in pickup groups here and there, but nothing that carries over beyond that. My friends list is bascially empty because everyone I interact with is in my guild or in a chat channel we have for guildies playing Freeport characters.  Maybe it is just my 2-nights a week play schedule. Maybe not.

[El Gallo]

EQ2 has taken the "I don't ever want other players to affect my play unless I specifically request it" mantra to heart, which certain people here been advocating for years.  Careful what you wish for, and all that. 

[Alkiera]

I don't disagree with that. I came to EQ2 with about 2 dozen EQ people so it hasn't been much of an issue for me personally. However, I haven't made a single new "EQ buddy" in EQ2. Sure, I have met some nice people in pickup groups here and there, but nothing that carries over beyond that. My friends list is bascially empty because everyone I interact with is in my guild or in a chat channel we have for guildies playing Freeport characters.  Maybe it is just my 2-nights a week play schedule. Maybe not.

I started EQ2 with several people I know in RL, and we have picked up additional random people for our guild and I've /friend'ed people I've found cool to group with.

The same is true of EQ2 as any other online game...  If you never ask random people to join you, you'll spend alot of time by yourself, or with people you already know.  Heck, I was soloing in Fallen Gate for a quest the other night, when a random group of people invited me to tank for them.  I helped them out for a couple hours, they had shards down deep in the zone and they weren't really of the level needed to survive down there.  With a tank 5 levels over them(me) they did pretty well, only wiped once.

*shrug*  I also agree with El Gallo on this... be careful what you wish for.  If you're constant complaining about powerleveling and the interactions with annoying people, something gets done about it.  Frequently, coding out bad actions by some players also codes out good actions by many players.

Alkiera

[Sky]

Nobody was asking for that shit. Makes for a nice smarmy post, though.

The locked encounter system and forced grouping is an incredible innovation that makes the genre so much better.

With that, I'll leave the forum to the fans of the game.

[jpark]

Frequently, coding out bad actions by some players also codes out good actions by many players.

Well put.  But on these features in particular - what do you think Alkeria - do you prefer locked encounters or not? (genuine question).

[shiznitz]

I am torn on the locked encounters. I hate that people cannot help each other in a pinch, but it can be done if the engaged group breaks the encounter. I think once it is broken, the encounter should be available immediately for another group to grab and get exp. Maybe give broken encounters fast regen. The WORST part about them is that if 1 group member gets aggro and dies, the encounter goes after everyone else even if they are out of LOS. Aggor needs to be more an individual mechanic. Let the puller/tank die to save the group. The only reason to pull at all is because it is easier not to have to rely on the rest of the group to be aware of adds. Might as well just charge in blindly since a "bad pull" is going to mean a wipeout anyway.

On the other hand, it didn't take long to get used to the locked system and adapt. It is just a different gameplay mechanic, one of many we have seen over the years.

[Alkiera]

I personally like the encounter system.  It prevents constant single pulling, which I hated in EQ1.  It also lets you know ahead of time how many mobs are coming.  Also, encounters come out very well balanced...  I have yet to run into an encounter in a dungeon or overland that was much harder than another, without being labeled as such.  EQ1 had a lot of situations where mobs would con the same, but were vastly different in actual difficulty.

Also, the encounter system lets them put in solo mobs that provide okay advancement for soloers, and different group encouters with better exp, better loot, and greater difficulty.  They seem to have pretty much fixed things so that it's pretty hard to solo even green group encounters, while solo encounters are pretty easily doable.

All in all, I like it.  It prevents powerleveling, prevents buff/heal bots, and kill stealing.  It does prevent 'drive by buffing' and healing, but there are spells that will heal outside of group, if the target isn't in an encounter.  So if they win narrowly, you can hit them with a heal at the end, so they don't die from additional agro.  I really like the no out-of-group buffing.  I hated the PoK/Nexus buff markets.  It also prevents 'zerging' high level encounters.  If you have more people than the encounter allows, the encounter goes no-treasure(an icon after name, also appears when you yell to break encounter locks).

Speaking of yelling...  there is no prox agro for broken encounters, until they get back 'home'.  Thus, no getting agro, yelling and dropping the mobs on someone else, unless they actually engage one.  Also, Shiznitz...  Aggro is done per person.  We had a groupmate who was a bit behind get agro'd on and killed by a couple groups of spellcasters.  The rest of us didn't get agro.

Alkiera

[kaid]

Actually how it works when you break agro is as long as the mob is still chasing you it will not go after anybody else. Once it starts slowly walking back there is a good chance that it can and WILL agro on folks on the way back. They are very erratic on how this works but all it takes is a couple trips to fallen gate to find out that yes indeed you can get nailed by trains wandering back to their home spots.

kaid

[Aenovae]

Actually how it works when you break agro is as long as the mob is still chasing you it will not go after anybody else. Once it starts slowly walking back there is a good chance that it can and WILL agro on folks on the way back. They are very erratic on how this works but all it takes is a couple trips to fallen gate to find out that yes indeed you can get nailed by trains wandering back to their home spots.

This is extremely rare and is actually a bug.  99.9% of the time in EQ2, training is impossible.  Others' mobs will only attack you if: your group engages it, you are standing within range of its spawn point, or the mob is bugged.

[Alkiera]

Have to agree with Aenovae, I've never been agro'd on by mobs trying to go home, unless I hit them.

If it happened to you while fighting, blame the fighters using AEs indescriminately.

Alkiera