The Pee-Ess Four: It's a PC FFS.

[Maledict]

I don't understand why people keep thinking this is just a steam box.

Unless Valve totally lock down every single component in steam boxes in the same way the console manufacturers do then the steam box will not be equivalent to a console, it will be a very shiny packaged PC with all the advantages and disadvantages that contains.

You cannot compare like for like across consoles and PCs - they arent equivalent in that way. The 360 only has 256 memory or some ing silly and yet outperforms PCs with a gig because its a locked down console. Unless the steam box has the same characteristics (which it doesn't seem to have given what we have seen so far) then the steam box won't be comparable to one of the new consoles.

[HaemishM]

If it's running Windows, what would stop you from installing non Steam games?

This. Or really any flavor of Linux. Whereas Sony's walled garden does not allow you to install just any app you can download on the Net. And I'm not even talking about games either. I mean things like a different Internet browser than the one that comes default, or an MP3 player, etc. The Steambox is really a PC with console hardware modularity and standardization (at least I hope). The PS4 looks like a goddamn iPad with PC hardware.

[sickrubik]

If it's running Windows, what would stop you from installing non Steam games?

This. Or really any flavor of Linux. Whereas Sony's walled garden does not allow you to install just any app you can download on the Net. And I'm not even talking about games either. I mean things like a different Internet browser than the one that comes default, or an MP3 player, etc. The Steambox is really a PC with console hardware modularity and standardization (at least I hope). The PS4 looks like a goddamn iPad with PC hardware.

Then you're not using it as a Steambox, and using it as just a PC, which I'm not sure why you wouldn't just build a PC at that point. The conversation seems to center specifically about the Steambox being a Steam... box, and the use as that. If we're not, it's no different than the conversation about PC vs Console. The mention was about software discs/streaming. I assume we were specifically talking about Steam/Steambox.

Steam is a walled garden. It just happens to be the best walled garden at the moment.

[HaemishM]

The Steambox IS just a PC, only with a loose set of modular hardware standards. It's not an OS. Unless I've misread everything I've read about the Steambox.

[sickrubik]

The Steambox IS just a PC, only with a loose set of modular hardware standards. It's not an OS. Unless I've misread everything I've read about the Steambox.

I think we're using Steambox differently, slightly. When people talk about Steambox, they generally are talking about the entire experience, which would include the OS. Otherwise, we're talking about Hardware only one side and Hardware/Software (PS4 in this case) on the other. For a level comparison, we have to include what the Steambox will be running. Which will probably be some flavor or Linux, from everything that Newell seems to indicate.

[koro]

So in actual PS4 news, Sony confirmed that no PSN purchases will transfer from PS3 to PS4.

So... that's happening. I know a couple people for whom this is a flat-out 100% deal-breaker.

[sickrubik]

Hurm. That bit is troubling. I guess the architecture change has something to do with that? I guess?

It also seems counter to Sony's general great support of the indie crowd. I wouldn't be surprised if they find themselves having to walk back from that a bit.

[HaemishM]

So in actual PS4 news, Sony confirmed that no PSN purchases will transfer from PS3 to PS4.

So... that's happening. I know a couple people for whom this is a flat-out 100% deal-breaker.

I heard that and just  at it. So you can apparently stream PS1, PS2 and PS3 games from ZE CLOUDZ!!!! but you'll likely have to repurchase them on the new PSN to do so? That seems very cockpunchy to me.

[tmp]

There's literally just one single reason why I'm not (and won't be) spending much time gaming on consoles: the insistence that mouse/keyboard (or a specialist controller which serves the exact same purpose/delivers the same control mechanism) is verboten.

Remove that ban, and punch anyone who thinks the pad is the "best controller ever devised for any game (especially FPS games)" in the dick, and I'd happily be a console gamer. vOv

Haven't you watched the presentation? Thanks to the power of PS4 the Move controller is totally capable of instantly translating small, vague wavey motions into intricate actions; that's performance you can't even dream of achieving with the primitive mouse/keyboard combo

[Fabricated]

The PS4 looks like a goddamn iPad with PC hardware.

Please don't insult the PS4 by comparing it to the Surface Pro.   

[luckton]

PS4 Press Event: The Abridged Version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rJDn0jRnUQ

[Paelos]

So in actual PS4 news, Sony confirmed that no PSN purchases will transfer from PS3 to PS4.

So... that's happening. I know a couple people for whom this is a flat-out 100% deal-breaker.

Sony seems intent on blowing it's foot off with this boondoggle. For one, I still don't understand why you would buy this instead of a PC. For the other, we've been waiting forever on next-gen consoles, and this seems like an upgrade to 2010 technology. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Maledict]

People have posted multiple times why folks will want this over a PC but people don't seem to actually be reading those posts...

I mean, I'm a PC gamer through and through. Before then I head an Atari st and a spectrum. This generation is the first time I've ever owned a console of any sorts. But they do have distinct advantages over PCs for a variety of reasons, not including first party games.

Plus you know, you cannot compare the technologies across which people keep doing?

[Paelos]

Remove the fact that developers are compensated to design for the prior consoles first.

Do the console advantages still exist? I argue that if we're moving this direction in the hardware, they don't, other than just setting up a PC near your couch.

[Simond]

The PS4 really does look pretty close to what I'd expect to be standard for mid-highend PCs by the end of 2013.  Technology-wise it's not much of a leap from where we are today.

Really? It looks like a mid-highend PC from the end of 2011 to me.

[Maledict]

But the technological advantages do exist. ThePs4 will be significantly more powerful than an equivalent PC in exactly the same we the 360 and the Ps3 are far more powerful than an equivalent PC at launch.
 
Well they be the most powerful option? No, of course not. A truly top end PC will be more powerful in the same way they have been every other generation for the last 15 years.  Bt you cannot simply look at the specs and compare across. Coding for a locked down console at the base level is completely different than coding for a billion and one PC configurations. There's a reason that a PC from 2006 would keel over and die running god of war 3 or uncharted 3 whereas the PS3 happily chunters along with it.

Having a completely controlled unit and being able to exploit every aspect of that is far, far more powerful than the pure numbers on the side would indicate.

(Ignoring all the other stuff - ease of use, ease of technology, controllers etc etc)

[Merusk]

Re: pc upgrading, if it were just for games it would be apples:apples. But console gamers also need a pc for everything else pcs do. The 'tech savvy' bit about hooking a tv to the pc is nonsense, it's a plug and play monitor at this point. It's not 2003 where you have to create a custom INF file for the tv. And my gpu setup is 460SLI, hardly cutting edge, perfect for 1080p.

Yes, even plug and play is beyond some folks.  Haven't you ever been asked to set-up a big-box-brand computer with all the color-coded cables?  I've had people ask me how to hook their HDTV up to their damn cable.

As for "console gamers need a pc for.."  For what, exactly?  Haven't you seen the stats where PC sales have plummeted with tablets coming to the market and the broad adaptation of smartphones?

  People's habits are trending towards: buy a cheap laptop for word processing and occasional web browsing and a tablet or smartphone for the majority of their internet browsing and e-mails.

[sickrubik]

Re: pc upgrading, if it were just for games it would be apples:apples. But console gamers also need a pc for everything else pcs do. The 'tech savvy' bit about hooking a tv to the pc is nonsense, it's a plug and play monitor at this point. It's not 2003 where you have to create a custom INF file for the tv. And my gpu setup is 460SLI, hardly cutting edge, perfect for 1080p.

Yes, even plug and play is beyond some folks.  Haven't you ever been asked to set-up a big-box-brand computer with all the color-coded cables?  I've had people ask me how to hook their HDTV up to their damn cable.

As for "console gamers need a pc for.."  For what, exactly?  Haven't you seen the stats where PC sales have plummeted with tablets coming to the market and the broad adaptation of smartphones?

  People's habits are trending towards: buy a cheap laptop for word processing and occasional web browsing and a tablet or smartphone for the majority of their internet browsing and e-mails.

One step further is that people aren't buying laptops. Smartphones/Tablets are eating EVERYONES lunch.

[Trippy]

The PS4 really does look pretty close to what I'd expect to be standard for mid-highend PCs by the end of 2013.  Technology-wise it's not much of a leap from where we are today.

Really? It looks like a mid-highend PC from the end of 2011 to me.

You guys are both off by a year It's a mid-range 2012 gaming PC. We know the GPU is from AMD and spec'd at 1.84 TFLOPS. That puts it between the 7850 and 7870 GPUs, both of which came out March 2012. NVIDIA released the 680 in March 2012 as well but that's a much more powerful GPU. It wasn't until September that they released the 660 variants at ~2 TFLOPS.

The CPU, also by AMD, is an 8 core (though knowing Sony probably half of those will be used to lock down the system) Jaguar design which is new this year. Jaguar is a mobile/low power design so it won't be as powerful as a desktop CPU of a comparable family.

[murdoc]

PS4 Press Event: The Abridged Version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rJDn0jRnUQ&feature=youtu.be

Goddammit, I just came here to post that.

[Paelos]

I think the main point is that if consoles are trending towards PC hardware, then it comes down to an economic choice of power/utility v. cost.

[eldaec]

Genuinely surprised that it has about the right amount of RAM given other resources.

Is it too cynical to wonder how much will be available to the application and whether Sony have a ridiculously bloated OS planned to bring performance down to that of a normal console?

I think the main point is that if consoles are trending towards PC hardware, then it comes down to an economic choice of power/utility v. cost.

Not really.

The way you can do stuff with a console will still be fundamentally different, Sony certainly won't be loosening their grip on the garden. And there is plenty of space in the stack between architecture and api for Sony to make performance incomparably bad (or theoretically at least, good).

[Paelos]

The way you can do stuff with a console will still be fundamentally different

How? Other than Sony cockblocking the market.

I'm talking from a consumer standpoint. Not from the developer standpoint.

[Yegolev]

So in actual PS4 news, Sony confirmed that no PSN purchases will transfer from PS3 to PS4.

[Hawkbit]

I don't have words to describe how silly that decision is. 

Blame is shifted onto the hardware architecture, but ultimately they're choosing to see who will start repurchasing their 'old' PSN games. 

On one hand, it's not surprising.  On the other, we should expect more from them.

[Goreschach]

The PS4 really does look pretty close to what I'd expect to be standard for mid-highend PCs by the end of 2013.  Technology-wise it's not much of a leap from where we are today.

Really? It looks like a mid-highend PC from the end of 2011 to me.

You guys are both off by a year It's a mid-range 2012 gaming PC. We know the GPU is from AMD and spec'd at 1.84 TFLOPS. That puts it between the 7850 and 7870 GPUs, both of which came out March 2012. NVIDIA released the 680 in March 2012 as well but that's a much more powerful GPU. It wasn't until September that they released the 660 variants at ~2 TFLOPS.

The CPU, also by AMD, is an 8 core (though knowing Sony probably half of those will be used to lock down the system) Jaguar design which is new this year. Jaguar is a mobile/low power design so it won't be as powerful as a desktop CPU of a comparable family.

Wow. If Sony subsidises the cost of the console, and I don't see how they can't with that much stuff in it, the ps4 could end up making a really nice budget pc once someone cracks it.

[Yegolev]

Blame is shifted onto the hardware architecture,

I'm not really buying into that one since there are many non-PS3 games on PSN.  Quite a few PS1 games, for example, including all of the Final Fantasy ones minus III for some reason, and of course Symphony of the Night.  Also, since I'm emulating PS2 games on my PC right fucking now, I can't believe that it would not be easy to emulate them on the PS4.  I honestly don't know what the deal is with emulating them on the PS3, but I suppose there is a reason.

they're choosing to see who will start repurchasing their 'old' PSN games.

Yep.  I try very hard not to buy a game a second or third time, but shit happens and if they make it easy to do I don't mind popping off $5 to get a new version of something I already had.  However, if they are going to be cocks about it, I'm not likely to want to do this.  Since I can get SotN on XBL, or run it in a PS1 emulator on my PC.

[Merusk]

I think the main point is that if consoles are trending towards PC hardware, then it comes down to an economic choice of power/utility v. cost.

Utility of a PC isn't outweighed by the inconvience cost of maintenance and floor space in most user's minds.  A console takes up an additional ~12"x14" plus the games.  So let's say 3sf total for most people. (no Schild, you don't count)  A PC requires a separate desk, monitor, keyboard, speakers, etc.  Then, as I said, there's the maintenance.  Patches, boot-up, virus updates, software updates and all the other headaches of PC ownership that for nearly 15 years pundits have said will drive the masses to the first workable 'appliance' solution.

Laptops weren't that solution.  They had a lot of the inconveniences of a PC, adding only a smaller form factor and portability.  However the rise of laptops over Desktops in the mass market showed what people were looking for.   So now we have, "Hello Tablets/ smartphones. "

With a separate appliance solution for home entertainment. On the TV you already own.

[Morat20]

So in actual PS4 news, Sony confirmed that no PSN purchases will transfer from PS3 to PS4.

So... that's happening. I know a couple people for whom this is a flat-out 100% deal-breaker.

Sony seems intent on blowing it's foot off with this boondoggle. For one, I still don't understand why you would buy this instead of a PC. For the other, we've been waiting forever on next-gen consoles, and this seems like an upgrade to 2010 technology. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I think there's a reason we've been waiting on a next-gen console. Pushing them out too close together pisses buyers off. I have no doubt -- no doubt -- that Sony and MS both have paid a shitton of money to figure out when, exactly, the average buyer are happy moves from "Fuck you, money grubbing asswipe" to "Hmm, I've had this one for years and the new one looks like a step up and I bet the new games will be awesome..."

Game junkies might start jonesing for an upgrade quickly, but the average player probably doesn't even want to HEAR "Buy a totally new system" for at least five years -- and probably closer to 10.

The no backwards compatibility is bullshit, though. I don't have a PS3, but if the new Xbox tries that shit I don't see any reason to buy a new Xbox.

[KallDrexx]

F

Is it too cynical to wonder how much will be available to the application and whether Sony have a ridiculously bloated OS planned to bring performance down to that of a normal console?

Figuring PS3 games can play current gen games with 512Mb of total memory, I'm not really worried about that.

[luckton]

Query, and maybe this was already discussed and I missed it, but if the chip is x86 based, how the heck is it able to address more than 4GB or memory?

[Trippy]

Cause it has a 64-bit address space.

[Kageru]

I don't understand why people keep thinking this is just a steam box.

Unless Valve totally lock down every single component in steam boxes in the same way the console manufacturers do then the steam box will not be equivalent to a console, it will be a very shiny packaged PC with all the advantages and disadvantages that contains.

The steam box looks to be several things. It's a specification that third parties can build to and people can match their PC against. We know this since third parties can build "steambox" machines of their own. And those machines can be open. So in this case it's more like a branding / certification system.

The actual valve version of the steam box, and even things like Nvidia's shield (if it made sense) might well be fully locked down. They're meant to be appliances for the low-brow lounge room crowd who don't want configuration, expandability or any app other than steam running on it. The people who want or need those things will buy a PC, that's not the audience they are going for. Though I can also imagine PC owners wanting both since the big PC in the den and a convenience machine on the TV complement each other.

A fully locked down steam box, booting into big-screen mode, having a single hardware spec, having alternative functions only through apps installed through steam, is a console. And there's no reason it can't be every bit as powerful as the PS4 because Sony can't afford funky hardware any more. Shared memory is not a technological advance, that's an echo from the PC's past, and DDR5 as main memory isn't necessarily better.

As for backwards compatibility not being possible. That was a pretty obvious side effect from a architecture transition stand point and confirmed long ago. The fault was on Sony thinking they were big enough to drive the Cell forward against the volume of PC hardware.

[Quinton]

But the technological advantages do exist. ThePs4 will be significantly more powerful than an equivalent PC in exactly the same we the 360 and the Ps3 are far more powerful than an equivalent PC at launch.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there.  The modern console OSes are getting heavier and on an 8GB machine the overhead of even Win7 starts becoming more in the noise.  Given the specs discussed I don't think there's going to be enough of a performance gap to really matter.  Really the biggest performance advantage of consoles in the last generation has been a very well defined and higher-than-PC minimum spec to target, but again, we just are not seeing as large a technology gap in this upcoming generation.  Building a high volume box with a simplified mainboard with no expansion allows for some cost savings, but does not magically amplify the hardware.  And there's absolutely no way that AMD and I forget which GPU manufacturer are going to intentionally hold back their PC targetted CPUs and GPUs -- the same or better hardware will be available in PCs within six months of launch, worst case.

The main advantage of the console experience remains the "plug and play" experience without having to worry about os and drivers and upgrades and all that because it's a box you plug into your TV and turn on and play games.  However, as the console OSes are getting heftier software upgrades and such are getting more intrusive, though still it's a far more managed experience (and a hell of a lot harder to mess up) than a desktop PC.

[Trippy]

And there's absolutely no way that AMD and I forget which GPU manufacturer are going to intentionally hold back their PC targetted CPUs and GPUs -- the same or better hardware will be available in PCs within six months of launch, worst case.

AMD is doing the GPU as well -- it'll be one of their integrated "APUs".

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6770/sony-announces-playstation-4-pc-hardware-inside