NFL 2013

[sickrubik]

Yeah, this fucking bullshit of "they were friends, so it's not right" and "he might be gay" is why I need to avoid the topic all together. It's so "blame the victim" and filled with terrible logic that it just pisses me off.

Keep in mind it was the fucking Dolphins who asked Dez Bryant before the draft if his mother had ever been a prostitute. That's the fucking culture in that clubhouse, and it's straight up deplorable.

[Ghambit]

 Have you ever played high level southern-style American football btw?  Unless you have, it's tough to have a truly informed opinion on the matter.  

I keep hearing variations on this argument, but I don't understand it.  It seems to me to be essentially "Football is full of manchildren acting shitty to each other, therefore this instance of it is totally ok."

Hell, even in Hockey - a sport for well off northerners - I never had many friends on my teams.

Imagine the Sicilian from a Princess Bride being stuck in the ludus of Spartacus.  That's kinda how it'd be for a Stanford pre-med grad born of Harvard stuck on a SoFla NFL team.  If it doesn't make you dumber, it'd likely drive you insane.

Yeah, you're fucking nuts dude. There's no way these guys were BFFs. No fucking way.

BFF's in the standard sense that you're thinking of?  No.  BFFs in a football-sense?  Yes.  Have you ever played high level southern-style American football btw?  Unless you have, it's tough to have a truly informed opinion on the matter.  

Only other things I can think of are JMart is gay, him and Richie were closer then anyone thought, or JMart really and truly looked at the team as purely a traditional business - wherein he felt pressured to bromance it up with his teammates even though he secretly despised them.  

I'm half hoping on Monday Night football the two of them run through the tunnel hand-in-hand with violins in the background and rose petals on the turf.  No really.

And there's just no possible way that Martin was going along with things to avoid conflict, none at all. Because that's totally not what people who get bullied often end up doing.

Football is not some special magical world where the rules of normal human behavior fly out the window and everything is just totally alien to anyone on the outside.

I've since edited my speculation.
But I dare to disagree with you about football not being a "special world."  I look at it as one might look at a platoon in a warzone.  They dont live by the same rules and outsiders typically can never understand unless they've been there.  So no, the rules of normal behavior actually do fly out the window to some extent and YES, it is in many ways totally alien.

Like I said, I kept my brother out of the sport for these reasons.  If this non-magical world you think football is was an actual reality, I would've let him play.
I grew up around ball, played ball, and have quite many pro ball players that are close family friends (some with rings).  I'm not talking out of my butt here.

Yeah, this fucking bullshit of "they were friends, so it's not right" and "he might be gay" is why I need to avoid the topic all together. It's so "blame the victim" and filled with terrible logic that it just pisses me off.

Keep in mind it was the fucking Dolphins who asked Dez Bryant before the draft if his mother had ever been a prostitute. That's the fucking culture in that clubhouse, and it's straight up deplorable.

This I can agree with, except absolving Martin of any responsibility whatsoever.  Life just isnt that black/white.

[Ingmar]

No, sorry, that's deterministic bullshit. Football does not have to be like that just because it has always been like that, any more than the FAMU Band has to have its culture of hazing or any fraternity does or anything else. Sports are not special. Fuck, the military is not special. Discipline is achievable without abuse.

[Paelos]

No, sorry, that's deterministic bullshit. Football does not have to be like that just because it has always been like that, any more than the FAMU Band has to have its culture of hazing or any fraternity does or anything else. Sports are not special. Fuck, the military is not special. Discipline is achievable without abuse.

It doesn't have to be, but it is. It's the biggest, macho dudes, loaded up with chemicals, and put together in a room.

They don't talk about their feelings. They pretend not to have feelings. The second you show weakness, you're a target.

[sickrubik]

 

[Paelos]

You want to make the situation better? Strangle out the drug issues with continual testing and even harsher penalties, and start enforcing the hostile work environment laws we already have on the books.

[Sjofn]

No, sorry, that's deterministic bullshit. Football does not have to be like that just because it has always been like that, any more than the FAMU Band has to have its culture of hazing or any fraternity does or anything else. Sports are not special. Fuck, the military is not special. Discipline is achievable without abuse.

It doesn't have to be, but it is. It's the biggest, macho dudes, loaded up with chemicals, and put together in a room.

They don't talk about their feelings. They pretend not to have feelings. The second you show weakness, you're a target.

That doesn't make it right, that doesn't make it acceptable, and that doesn't make it unchangeable. No one is really debating "is the culture really like this." They're debating if/how it needs to be changed.

[Trippy]

Locker room dynamics vary by team. Rookie hazing rituals also vary by team. Just cause the Dolphins locker room is/was apparently dysfunctional doesn't mean all the other locker rooms are the same way.
 

[sickrubik]

Locker room dynamics vary by team. Rookie hazing rituals also vary by team. Just cause the Dolphins locker room is/was apparently dysfunctional doesn't mean all the other locker rooms are the same way.
 

And it's clear there is something systemicly WRONG with the Dolphins organization. I'm beyond fucking annoyed that people are latching onto "hazing" or "bullying" for this topic, honestly. It's harassment, plain and simple. Mixed with some extortion, blackmail, fraud and theft.

[Paelos]

Some parts of it you simply can't change. The NFL players with their salaries have become so far removed from regular society, and so famous, with the press absolutely hounding them at all times. It has created an "us against the world" mentality where the only sanctuary is the lockerroom at best. And if you can't become part of the collective there, or it's a toxic place to begin with? It's going to be ugly, just like what happened here.

There was something about Martin that a few guys didn't like, and the rest of them are now just going with the flow because it's another "us against the world" situation. Martin's now THEM. Hell, he might have always been THEM. You can't do anything about how people react to other people, other than cracking the lockerroom silence, and suing the shit out of the teams.

[Rasix]

[Nevermore]

Keep in mind it was the fucking Dolphins who asked Dez Bryant before the draft if his mother had ever been a prostitute. That's the fucking culture in that clubhouse, and it's straight up deplorable.

When Ireland did that it was a huge warning sign.  He should have been fired right then.  Scratch that, he never should have been hired.  Worst thing Parcells ever did.  Stephen Ross is also a terrible team owner, so that hasn't helped matters either.

[Paelos]

They are going to end up firing a ton of people over this, make no mistake. I still don't think it will change the cultural stigma, or that Martin or Incognito will get a job again.

It's absolutely wrong that he can't do his job, but I believe Martin's best recourse now is to go after them in the courts and get as much recompense as he can.

[Ghambit]

The mob wants its Gladiators.  Most of you will not get what you seek.

[Ingmar]

or that Martin or Incognito will get a job again.

I can think of somewhere he could end up: http://www.mercurynews.com/49ers/ci_24466155/49ers-are-free-bullying-hazing-issues-says-donte

[sickrubik]

Broncos could also use some Offensive Tackle depth. 

[Fordel]

Really, does any team turn down good linemen?

[Rasix]

Dude, he's a pussy.  Smart too.

[WayAbvPar]

Send him to Seattle. They are about to start Percy Harvin at tackle at this point. At least he could get entangled in a DE's legs and slow him down a bit.

[Ghambit]

I.  Just.  I give up.      At this point, every phins fan should be allocated paper-bags to wear over their heads.  Philbin is done.  Ireland and Aponte are done (hopefully).  Good riddance.

http://www.local10.com/sports/aventura-police-dolphins-richie-incognito-harassed-golf-volunteer/-/1717082/22858256/-/11fm0jpz/-/index.html

[Velorath]

Naw man, what you don't get is that's just like the golf mentality man. You wouldn't understand it unless you played golf at a high level.

[WayAbvPar]

Since when is it news that Incognito is a fucking sociopath? He is been complete fucking asshole his entire career. Anyone surprised by any of this hasn't been paying any attention (his current employers absolutely included).

Pity this is going to derail the franchise for years. They have a decent core, and seemed to be getting close to relevant.

[Ingmar]

Naw man, what you don't get is that's just like the golf mentality man. You wouldn't understand it unless you played golf at a high level.

 

[Paelos]

Really, does any team turn down good linemen?

I don't think it will be up to the teams. Gooddell and the owners hate incidents that make the league look bad, right or wrong. They want nothing more than this thing to go away, and they will likely pay to do that. As I understand it, lawyers have already been unleashed on the situation.

Maybe he gets another shot, but I'm always skeptical of the way NFL franchises work once you've been blackballed.

[Ginaz]

I watched a segment last weekend about this with Chris Carter and Keyshawn Johnson, both former NFL players who were pretty good.  Both of them said this sort of thing is NOT normal in an NFL locker room and wouldn't have been tolerated on their teams.  People defending the Dolphins and saying Martin is at fault here should really look at the guy being singled out, Richie Incognito.  This guy has been a first class douche bag his entire life, not only on the field but off of it.  I'm inclined to believe that this guy went way beyond the normal shit rookies get put through and abused whatever authority he was given as a veteran player.  Why should Martin have to tolerate that?

[Paelos]

Sort of funny that Chris or Keyshawn would be looked on as the voices of reason on anything.

[Rasix]

Why's that? They seem to be functioning more as a sanity check here.

[Paelos]

Just because of the general crazy they used to bring to the lockerroom themselves in the past. I mean Keyshawn and Gruden absolutely hated each other. It was so bad in the lockerroom that Key got deactivated and traded in 2003. This was like...a year after winning a Super Bowl?

And Chris? He was cut by Buddy Ryan for massive amounts of alcohol and drug abuse in his first stint with the Eagles.

[Rasix]

Yah, so?  How does that have anything to do with the topic at hand?  I'm sure they were more than capable of knowing what went on with the other players in the locker room/practice field.  They did frequent those areas. 

[Phildo]

ESPN just ran a story about this that might be worth discussing:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9941696/jonathan-martin-walked-twisted-world-led-incognito

Welcome to Incarceration Nation, where the mindset of the Miami Dolphins' locker room mirrors the mentality of a maximum-security prison yard and where a wide swath of America believes the nonviolent intellectual needs to adopt the tactics of the barbarian.

[Paelos]

He makes solid points. Celebrating and circling the wagons around some white pyscho over the notion of being an "honorary black" is pretty much doing the work of white supremacists for them. Whitlock's point about Incognito being an honorary bigot hits home. He's right, the Miami lockerroom is absolutely crazy and ignorant for defending the guy, and yet they are.

Which sort of speaks to how fucked up the lockerroom "us against the world" mentality can get when it runs to this absurd length.

[ghost]

Incognito is probably one of those guys that is either all in or hates your guts.  You're either on "his team" or you're the enemy.  I have a suspicion that the guy isn't truly a racist.  I think it would be tough to play in the NFL and be a true racist.  I'm not bothered by his language, tbh, as I suspect that it wasn't too different from typical locker room lingo.

What is getting glossed over is that this guy seems to fit the typical "roid rage" psychological profile...

[sickrubik]

  I have a suspicion that the guy isn't truly a racist.  I think it would be tough to play in the NFL and be a true racist.  I'm not bothered by his language, tbh, as I suspect that it wasn't too different from typical locker room lingo.

What is a "true racist"? Also, Riley Cooper says hi.

[Khaldun]

Holy fuck.

All I can say is that this whole thing is really separating the men from the ridiculous bully-enabling football-is-full-of-special-flowers-you-don't-understand-locker-room-culture boys.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9939308/richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-miami-dolphins-bullying-scandal

Quoting Brian Phillips from that piece:

"Because this — this idea that Jonathan Martin is a weakling for seeking emotional help — this is some room-temperature faux-macho alpha-pansy nonsense, and I am here to beat it bloody and leave it on the ground. Every writer who's spreading this around, directly or by implication; every player who's reaction-bragging about his own phenomenal hardness; every pundit in a square suit who's braying about the unwritten code of the locker room — every one of these guys should be ashamed of himself, and that's it, and it's not a complicated story."

[Ginaz]

Holy fuck.

All I can say is that this whole thing is really separating the men from the ridiculous bully-enabling football-is-full-of-special-flowers-you-don't-understand-locker-room-culture boys.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9939308/richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-miami-dolphins-bullying-scandal

Quoting Brian Phillips from that piece:

"Because this — this idea that Jonathan Martin is a weakling for seeking emotional help — this is some room-temperature faux-macho alpha-pansy nonsense, and I am here to beat it bloody and leave it on the ground. Every writer who's spreading this around, directly or by implication; every player who's reaction-bragging about his own phenomenal hardness; every pundit in a square suit who's braying about the unwritten code of the locker room — every one of these guys should be ashamed of himself, and that's it, and it's not a complicated story."

I've been in the army for almost 20 years and I've never seen shit like this before.  It wouldn't be tolerated.