Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
June 24, 2017, 12:08:03 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
Donate! | Subscribe! | Shop: Amazon

***DONATION DRIVE 2 HAS BEGUN:
CLICK HERE TO BURN MONEY***
*
Home Help Search Login Register
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Magic: The Gathering Online  |  Topic: So it looks like im headed back to paper 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: So it looks like im headed back to paper  (Read 5425 times)
Xilren's Twin
Moderator
Posts: 1648


on: February 04, 2013, 07:15:31 AM

Via my middle child's interest.  He's now 13 and over the last several months had started to become interested in MtG by playing Duels of the Planeswalkers and watching me do the occasional draft online.  So for Christmas i gave him the holiday gift box to give him something to fool around with and see if he wanted to take it further.  That gift box is neat b/c it comes with 4 boosters, holds up to 2000 cards, and had a nice insert inside which basically has 11 different deck themes to get new players thinking about deck construction and strategies.  I had some M13 cards from earlier, so throwing them in the mix allowed us to cobble together about 4 different kitchen table decks and start playing.  I have to say, the Ravinica guilds due make grasping the color wheel easier for new players, and sure enough, he started to get very interested.  So much so we bought a few more boosters and was starting to talk about what it would take to go to a FNM at the local store.  Not sure he was ready for that but we did have an opportunity to take another step with the Gatecrash prerelease.  We didn't go the first weekend, but our only local store had enough guild packs left that they ran another sealed tourney this past Saturday for whomever wanted to play.  He choose Boros and I chose Simic and he played his first official matches vs random people.  He was very excited and had a good time and definitely wants to play more.  He manged to go 1-2 which i was happy about (wasn't sure he would be able to win any matches and had prepared him accordingly - "everyone loses at magic at first") and was already reviewing what he had done wrong in the games he lost.  Only had one match where he got smashed but it was to Aurelia Warleader so wasn't a whole lot he could have done about that anyway.  I also had fun with Simic but without some good rares it was a little to slow for the mass field of boros and gruul in sealed; still had at least 2 games won by getting opponents to alpha strike by being low on life and them out numbering my few but large blockers, but playing Predators Rapport to gain 12 life off a 6/6 token and then swinging back next turn for 15 damage.  I won an Orzhov match at 2 life by gridlocking and swinging for 30.  :)  I do like the extort mechanic a lot though.

We bought a Gatecrash fat pack, a Rakdos and Ruin event deck, plus an Orzhov guild pack, so added to the 2 guild packs  we have suddenly gone from having next to no cards to about 600 standard cards.  However the only way i can see him being close to playing a somewhat competitive standard deck without suddenly dropping a few hundred dollars on singles is to play a highly aggressive RDW or Rakdos deck.  I.e. use that rakdos event deck as a base and modify it based on what we have.  Any cheap but effective standard tips would be appreciated.  Sadly, i dont think my local store does drafts with any regularity, but that would be my first choice for both playing for fun while building a card pool.

(I had also forgotten besides money the other main reason people like me give up magic is time.  5 round tourneys even with only 36 people still take 5 hours and its rare to have those blocks of uninterrupted time.  If he really starts playing semi regularly, i can see wive aggro rising....)

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54681


WWW
Reply #1 on: February 04, 2013, 07:34:50 AM

Make a cube at home. I'll link to some cheap ones and the rules to Winston draft in a bit.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54681


WWW
Reply #2 on: February 04, 2013, 02:37:32 PM

The Pauper Cube: http://mtg.mn/4lO

That spreadsheet needs to be filtered correctly, but you could probably buy the entire thing for less than $100.

Winston Drafting: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/af59

Drafting meant to be done between two people. Highly skill intensive, doing this regularly with your son will make you a better player and make him a real player. I've been teaching my fiancee how to draft with a different cube and she's getting pretty fierce.

I wish I'd known about this particular set of formats before as it's likely the best way I've ever seen to both teach someone about the game and learn things yourself. Enjoy.
Yegolev
Moderator
Posts: 23309

2/10 WOULD NOT INGEST


WWW
Reply #3 on: February 14, 2013, 03:03:24 PM

Your spreadsheet is why I don't play this game anymore.

However that is some neat shit.

And really I think it's the what-is-legal thing that I dislike most.  But hey.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54681


WWW
Reply #4 on: February 14, 2013, 05:40:43 PM

Sooooooooo. Cubing has become unbelievably popular. Once you have a cube built you don't actually have to keep up with the Joneses. But hey, the more people that quit the more people I can get to make card donations. HUR HUR. Seriously though, cube. It's great. I have two built.
Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280

Auto Assault Affectionado


Reply #5 on: February 14, 2013, 05:52:33 PM

How well does Cube play with less than a full draft group?

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54681


WWW
Reply #6 on: February 14, 2013, 06:14:41 PM

I typically only play Cube with 2 people via Winston Draft (linked above) or Grid Draft. It's fantastic.

This is my cube (as in, I built the Magic Online Holiday Cube):
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/11272012d

I also have a Momir Basic list I built myself. First, the rules of Momir Basic (this is quite strictly a two-player affair IMO):
Quote
You start with a sixty-card deck that is all basic lands. Everyone starts with the ability: “{X}, Discard a card: Put a token onto the battlefield that's a copy of a creature card with converted mana cost X chosen at random. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery and only once each turn.”

Other than this, the rules are the same as a regular game of Magic.

Here's my list:
Kitsune
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2400


Reply #7 on: February 14, 2013, 10:38:35 PM

Thanks for the advice, schild.  I'm getting a pauper cube together and rounding up all of my friends who over the years have said some variant of "Well Magic's okay but it's too damn expensive so I'll never play."
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54681


WWW
Reply #8 on: February 14, 2013, 10:54:49 PM

Good deal, if you (or your friends) have any questions let me know.
Xilren's Twin
Moderator
Posts: 1648


Reply #9 on: February 15, 2013, 05:06:27 AM

So I'm taking my son to his first FNM tonight.  He's using a Rb aggro deck which is fast enough to kill just about anything that stumbles at all but he doesnt really know how not to overcommit yet, so sweepers have a tendency to wreck him.  It will be a learning experience im sure.  Since i have to be there, might as well play right?  Course my options are a crappy versions of a boros deck, izzet delver tempo or a B/W knights and extort deck.  I fully expect to lose every match :)
It's the david and goliath budget deck vs $500 standard deck challenge!

BTW, the winston draft is quite fun.  Thanks for that.

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54681


WWW
Reply #10 on: February 15, 2013, 07:36:45 AM

No problem. He'll learn a lot winston drafting.
Thrawn
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3089


Reply #11 on: February 15, 2013, 08:23:48 AM

It's the david and goliath budget deck vs $500 standard deck challenge!

Don't get too discouraged before you even go though.  While yes, you aren't likely to win many tournaments with a budget deck it can happen.  You bring a budget deck and get paired against a top tier deck that is a really good match up for you and suddenly you find yourself in the top 8.  Our local shop recently had a players dad show up with a budget burn deck and crush everyone he played against because the local meta game couldn't deal with it.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Yegolev
Moderator
Posts: 23309

2/10 WOULD NOT INGEST


WWW
Reply #12 on: February 15, 2013, 08:34:04 AM

This is my cube (as in, I built the Magic Online Holiday Cube):
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/11272012d

Hmm, I'd gotten wind of this from another direction but I hadn't read the article.  Too bad I already sent my cards packing, although they are actually in active play now and I sometimes get reports on how they are doing.  Mostly because I added some artwork to a few of them.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Xilren's Twin
Moderator
Posts: 1648


Reply #13 on: February 16, 2013, 06:01:42 AM

It's the david and goliath budget deck vs $500 standard deck challenge!

Don't get too discouraged before you even go though.  While yes, you aren't likely to win many tournaments with a budget deck it can happen.  You bring a budget deck and get paired against a top tier deck that is a really good match up for you and suddenly you find yourself in the top 8.  Our local shop recently had a players dad show up with a budget burn deck and crush everyone he played against because the local meta game couldn't deal with it.

Result? Challenge accepted - Red Deck Wins!  I am pleased to report that my son, despite being the youngest person there, went 4-1 with his Rb aggro deck and made top 8, winning some packs and cementing his enjoyment of MtG.  I had tried pretty hard to convince him he really didnt need $35 Thundermaw Hellkites, and now he actually believes me.  Our "surprise you're dead" tech was instead some Wrecking Ogres, which can be bloodrushed to give an attacking creature +3/+3 and double strike.  Dropping that on any random unblocked creature was good for minimum 8 and normally 10 to 12 damage.  And it cant be countered or killed with removal.  For a 50 cent rare.   Let's just say it worked very well for him.  He even got a kill with the lone Bloodhall i stuck in there, so i get to feel some spillover pride that my deck construction for him accomplished the goals i was hoping it would.

Even the old man (me) managed to go 3-2, which shocked the heck out of me, with my no rares BW knights.  The matches i lost were the ones i was expecting to lose to, decks filled with Thragtusks, Supreme Verdicts, Sphinx's Rev, Snapcasters, plansewalkers, the true shock lands, etc. but against the next tier of decks i actually did pretty well, especially since no one could figure out what the heck i was playing. :)  So we won 5 packs, he bought a playmat, another player gave him some Freddy Kreuger alternate art Shredfreaks, and he pulled 2 shock lands and an Aurelia Warleader from his packs.  I'd say he's now hooked.

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54681


WWW
Reply #14 on: February 17, 2013, 09:48:37 AM

For a look at standard, the top 8 for what I'm calling Pro Tour Buncha Dudes Slamming Into Each Other is streaming now: http://www.twitch.tv/magicprotour
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54681


WWW
Reply #15 on: February 17, 2013, 09:49:19 AM

Short version: Standard is a horrible slog through Thragtusk, which is maybe the most oppressive training-wheelesque creature printed since Morphling. He allows people to make the worst mistakes and recover.
Hawkbit
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4750

Like a Klansman in the ghetto.


Reply #16 on: February 20, 2013, 10:33:58 PM

I'm an absolute neophyte to MtG, but I'm considering investing into some starter decks (paper, not online) for my kid and I to play at a non-competitive level.

She's almost 8, but she understands board games pretty well.  Is Magic, at base level, more difficult to understand than Ticket to Ride, Dominion or Catan?

We tried the Pokemon TCG last year, but it was too pedestrian for me and I got frustrated with how utterly simple it was.  I think she liked it, but only because of the brand.  The decks were really unbalanced without boosters and we often played games where one of us simply didn't get a Pokemon drawn for many turns, leading to very one-sided play.  I suppose that could have been fixed if I had spent time/money on fleshing the decks out.

If you think MtG might be a good fit, is there a 'best' way to start a core collection on the cheap?  I see there are $15 Core 2013 Intro packs with a starter 60 card deck + a booster or two, and there's a 285 card core set for $20 on Amazon.  I realize those cards are most likely to be filler for the most part.  What would you recommend?
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 20328


Reply #17 on: February 20, 2013, 10:53:51 PM

Eight is pretty young for the "full" game. Playing with just creature decks would work and then you could add mechanics as she got better. It'll be a bit harder for you to graduate things, though, since you don't know the game well yourself. You might actually want to get one of the Duel of the Planeswalker games for her to play since those have tutorials and decks for different skill levels.
eldaec
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10220


Reply #18 on: February 21, 2013, 02:23:47 AM

8 is probably a stretch, but I'd think core set stuff will mostly be fine.

Magic is a game for people who like reading rules and spotting the loophole or what a rule means in the game context.

If your kid is the type of 8 year old motivated by reading the first strike reminder text and noticing that it means a 5/1 beats daddy's 4/4 she'll have fun.


"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Xilren's Twin
Moderator
Posts: 1648


Reply #19 on: February 21, 2013, 04:56:29 AM

Yeah i'd say 8 is a little young for it, but all kids are different.  This latest go round with my middle child is probably the 3rd time in his childhood that he has wanted to learn, but the first time he's really old enough to get the interactions in a way where he can understand the whole game.  The advanced details on things like the order you should play your lands, and sequencing plays to maximize bluffs etc he can pick up through experience and advice.  If you started with just vanilla creature decks and some basic spells you would be ok for her to learn, but it may not make it far beyond that and many of the cards you buy wouldnt fit that style. It might also be tough for you to teach since you also haven't learned it yet, and most of the places you learn about Magic online are geared towards "competitive" play.

That begin said, go for it.  I do think the Duel of the planes walker game is good introductory tool for learning the game, plus the animation and pictures help hold the interest.

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
Hawkbit
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4750

Like a Klansman in the ghetto.


Reply #20 on: February 21, 2013, 04:43:24 PM

creature decks

What is this?  I'm guessing lands and creatures only?  Searching the interwebs offers only a little advice, but it looks to be 1/3 lands and 2/3 pure creatures, from what I'm seeing. 

It seems like tourney play is required to have 60+ cards, with most people wanting to stick to as close to 60 as possible to ensure the best possibility of cards appear from the deck.  What about casual play, still stick to 60?

Also, as suggested, I think I'm going to buy the Core 2013 Online version to learn the ins and outs, then shift into cards once I know the basics.  I think my kid will understand the basics, she definitely surprises me with some of the ideas she comes up with in board games. 

Thanks for the advice!
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54681


WWW
Reply #21 on: February 21, 2013, 05:08:31 PM

Creature-based decks are by far the best thing you can give someone new. I taught my fiancee how to play with basically a deck of burn and a deck of creatures. That said, I think the game is wasted on an 8 year old.
Kitsune
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2400


Reply #22 on: February 21, 2013, 08:12:34 PM

Wasted in that the 8 year old is probably not going to be a pro tour contestant before they're a teenager, maybe, but if they're bright I wouldn't see any reason why they couldn't be a good player.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54681


WWW
Reply #23 on: February 21, 2013, 08:24:30 PM

Wasted in that they may be bored of it before than can appreciate it.
Kitsune
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2400


Reply #24 on: February 21, 2013, 11:25:45 PM

Oh, gotcha.  Yeah, could be.
eldaec
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10220


Reply #25 on: February 22, 2013, 01:41:10 AM

creature decks

What is this?  I'm guessing lands and creatures only?  Searching the interwebs offers only a little advice, but it looks to be 1/3 lands and 2/3 pure creatures, from what I'm seeing. 

It seems like tourney play is required to have 60+ cards, with most people wanting to stick to as close to 60 as possible to ensure the best possibility of cards appear from the deck.  What about casual play, still stick to 60?

Also, as suggested, I think I'm going to buy the Core 2013 Online version to learn the ins and outs, then shift into cards once I know the basics.  I think my kid will understand the basics, she definitely surprises me with some of the ideas she comes up with in board games. 

Thanks for the advice!

Always play with 60 cards. 61 is wrong.

 The MTG.com (or whatever the official site is) has some great building on a budget articles - you should look back in the archive to when the core set was new.

24 land, 36 other things. No more than a handful of cards above 4 mana cost. Typically start with about 25+ creatures, and at least half a dozen creature removal spells. No more than two colours in a deck. Card draw is good, lifegain is usually bad, enchantments are not as good as you think, death to all planes walkers.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54681


WWW
Reply #26 on: February 22, 2013, 08:24:24 AM

I play a deck called lands in legacy. Sometimes 61 cards is the right number given I've finished in the money the last 5 of 6 legacy tournaments I've played in with cash prizes (as in tournaments that paid at least $5k). But yes, in 99% of situations, 60 is absolutely the right number. In standard, 60 is the right number unless you're playing Battle of Wits.

Lifegain is currently a powerhouse outside of pro play in standard. Thragtusk has done a pretty good job of warping the meta until recently (Boros Reckoner is a good thing).
Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280

Auto Assault Affectionado


Reply #27 on: February 22, 2013, 12:35:22 PM

Yeah lifegain shows up all over the place now - almost never straight lifegain, though, that's pretty much still bad. The good stuff generally comes with at least a body, or on a charm or spell that does something else as well.

Also, they stopped running Building on a Budget a few months ago, I think ReConstructed replaced it (which I find to be probably my favorite of the current columns, once you mentally account for the fact that the dude who writes it wants you to throw in Geist of St. Traft into every single deck.)

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54681


WWW
Reply #28 on: February 23, 2013, 07:30:55 PM

Ingmar, do you play Magic competitively?
Ragnoros
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1012


Reply #29 on: February 24, 2013, 11:27:51 AM

Finally got some people together to play my pauper cube. Basically the best thing ever. Thanks for the idea schild. If you guys don't have one, do it now!

Edit: Only problem is now I want to make a peasant cube, and rared cube, and power cube, and themed cubes, and...

"At this point it wouldn't surprise most of the world if the US was secretly building star destroyers." -Arthur_Parker

BattleTag - Ray#1555
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54681


WWW
Reply #30 on: February 24, 2013, 03:20:55 PM

I had a mono-red cube. That was fun. I'm about 120 cards from foiling out the Powered Magic Online Holiday Cube. Which is maybe the best cube I've ever played.
Thrawn
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3089


Reply #31 on: February 24, 2013, 05:33:12 PM

I play a deck called lands in legacy. Sometimes 61 cards is the right number given I've finished in the money the last 5 of 6 legacy tournaments I've played in with cash prizes (as in tournaments that paid at least $5k). But yes, in 99% of situations, 60 is absolutely the right number. In standard, 60 is the right number unless you're playing Battle of Wits.

Lifegain is currently a powerhouse outside of pro play in standard. Thragtusk has done a pretty good job of warping the meta until recently (Boros Reckoner is a good thing).

Lands is really a deck I need to find some videos of and watch or something.  I get the concept looking at a list but am having a hard time wrapping my head around how it actually beats other legacy decks.  (Although to be fair I follow legacy very little.)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54681


WWW
Reply #32 on: February 24, 2013, 06:07:30 PM

I was writing a lands primer for the site I stream on with one of my friends, I'll cross post it here when it gets done.
Kitsune
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2400


Reply #33 on: February 24, 2013, 09:20:15 PM

I had a mono-red cube. That was fun. I'm about 120 cards from foiling out the Powered Magic Online Holiday Cube. Which is maybe the best cube I've ever played.

Doesn't that one cost approximately thirty fucktons thanks to including the power nine?
Xilren's Twin
Moderator
Posts: 1648


Reply #34 on: February 24, 2013, 09:24:25 PM

FNM#2 - both my son and i went 3-1 and both made the top 8.  He had modified his Rb aggro slightly, and i ran with a RB delver counter burn deck.  Crowd was down some due to GP Charlotte taking place this weekend and we are only about 3.5 hours away, but still a good time was had by all.  I've met a good 8 people at these FNMs that are either completely new to magic, or are "just getting back into it" after a years long break, sort of like I am.  Whatever their faults with running MTGO, WotC's marketing seems to be working at least for paper.  My next goal is to talk these folks into drafting regularly, which only happens sporadically today.

Oh yeah, we pulled a Gideon and an Obzedat from the pack winnings. :)

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Magic: The Gathering Online  |  Topic: So it looks like im headed back to paper  
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC