Patch 5.2: Thunder, Thunder, Thunder, Thunder King Ho!

[Simond]

I liked them, but they were ultimately pointless, since there wasn't really anything built around fighting other players.

Tell me I'm wrong.

There were duels, but yeah even just a simple league table/ladder would have been good.

[Margalis]

What's your opinion on the pet battles?

I just assumed people stopped doing them after the first 48 hours or so. Was I wrong?

[Rokal]

Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that's 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called "Thunderforged". This means that there will be five variations of some items. You'll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you're working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We've also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25's, we've seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn't surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It's unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don't want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there's opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we're also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds-if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25's, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel-would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we're going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They'll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that'll drop, but they'll be even rarer in 10's. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It's important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won't be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We're curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR..

Guys, now you can feel worse about winning loot since it's usually going to be the "bad" version of that loot, and you can farm raids even longer in an attempt to get full BIS. You'll also be rewarded less for doing 10-man raids which are where most of the raid guilds play. Isn't that great?

[Merusk]

That has to be the single dumbest change I've ever seen them add to the game.

[Paelos]

Oh sweet lord. I can't even.

[Fabricated]

At this point it's just hilarious.

[Ingmar]

Minor tinkering with loot drop knobs is the worst change they've ever made?

I mean I'm pretty sure I could come up with 5 changes to totems alone that are worse than this.

[Merusk]

It's no minor change to loot drop knobs.

You're introducing an entire new tier of gear as a minor-chance-drop in the current tier.   This is the stuff that destroys raid guilds, never mind introducing the angst factor of "well this is shit because there's X+n something better." depending on what raid tier you're at.

[Paelos]

The hilarity will be when everyone passes loot because it's not Thunderforged and is therefore completely useless to all.

[Lt.Dan]

Why would Blizzard care that fewer people are running 25 man raids?

- Good for community?
- if it gets any worse they'll cut 25 man raids from the game so this is a warning before the tl;dr "25 mans unpopular and we tried to fix it but there's no demand" GC post
- Devs raid 25 man at lunch?

[Ingmar]

Why would Blizzard care that fewer people are running 25 man raids?

- Good for community?
- if it gets any worse they'll cut 25 man raids from the game so this is a warning before the tl;dr "25 mans unpopular and we tried to fix it but there's no demand" GC post
- Devs raid 25 man at lunch?

Presumably something like:

- Fewer people than used to raid 25s, so it is getting expensive in dev time to support
- Enough people still raid 25s that just flat out cutting them would risk losing more subscribers than they want to risk.

Solution:

- See if you can make an easy change to stave that off.

[Lantyssa]

Those two problems seem mutually exclusive.

[Simond]

The hilarity will be when everyone passes loot because it's not Thunderforged and is therefore completely useless to all.

You must be in a p. bad guild if people regularly pass on actual upgrades because a slightly better upgrade might possibly drop at some point in the future. Let me guess - it still uses DKP or something equally ridiculous?

[Paelos]

I've tried several different loot systems. As long as you have a system, people would pass on early shit in favor of that awesome weapon on the guy we haven't killed yet, because it's early.

But no, I quit raiding over a year ago, I was pointing out a quote from the forums on the topic.

[Merusk]

I've tried several different loot systems. As long as you have a systemlimited loot, people would pass on early shit in favor of that awesome weapon on the guy we haven't killed yet, because it's early.

Any system where only one or two people are going to be rewarded will wind-up like this. The problem is it's another level of random on top of the already shitty drop rates for some items.

I won't take that dagger off this boss, because I'll be excluded from the shoulders on the next one.
I'm not going to blow my lucky coin here, because I'll be out for the week and not be able to roll it on the boss that drops a Thunderforged.
I'm not going to pick-up that piece of loot that's an upgrade NOW because there's a chance of a better one down the road.

Humans are naturally stupid about risk and chance.  This is covered in so many social and economic studies that it should be common knowledge. We will always make the bad choice, but then blame the fact the choice was there, not our evolutionary-derived stupidity about making choices.

So it's only going to create more angst and frustration, and that's why I called it the dumbest decision I've ever seen them make.

[Pennilenko]

I've tried several different loot systems. As long as you have a systemlimited loot, people would pass on early shit in favor of that awesome weapon on the guy we haven't killed yet, because it's early.

Any system where only one or two people are going to be rewarded will wind-up like this. The problem is it's another level of random on top of the already shitty drop rates for some items.

I won't take that dagger off this boss, because I'll be excluded from the shoulders on the next one.
I'm not going to blow my lucky coin here, because I'll be out for the week and not be able to roll it on the boss that drops a Thunderforged.
I'm not going to pick-up that piece of loot that's an upgrade NOW because there's a chance of a better one down the road.

Humans are naturally stupid about risk and chance.  This is covered in so many social and economic studies that it should be common knowledge. We will always make the bad choice, but then blame the fact the choice was there, not our evolutionary-derived stupidity about making choices.

So it's only going to create more angst and frustration, and that's why I called it the dumbest decision I've ever seen them make.

The part of that I can't wrap my head around is that people make those shitty decisions literally over a tiny fraction of one percent worth of improvement.

[Merusk]

Humans are naturally stupid about risk and chance.

[Ingmar]

Those two problems seem mutually exclusive.

Only if they're not proactive about noticing the first one. Eventually yes it reaches a tipping point, but if you notice a trend early you can take steps to head it off.

[Lantyssa]

So a year ago?  If it was ever worth focusing dev time on 25-man content, which I'm dubious about.

[Simond]

Someone in the Blizzard dev team is fixated on a nonsensical solution to a problem that doesn't exist? Say it ain't so.

Anyway, chain lightning is bugged on the PTR at the moment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BYKzDy_1D4
This needs to be a minor glyph.

[SurfD]

Someone in the Blizzard dev team is fixated on a nonsensical solution to a problem that doesn't exist? Say it ain't so.

Anyway, chain lightning is bugged on the PTR at the moment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BYKzDy_1D4
This needs to be a minor glyph.

The number of Shaman with "darth" in their name would reach instant critical mass if that went live.  Also, been a while since I played an Ele Shaman, but doesn't chain lightning have a Cooldown?

[Ironwood]

I believe he mentioned that it may be bugged.

 

[SurfD]

I believe he mentioned that it may be bugged.

 

Well, I was operating on the theory that the bug was the distinct lack of "chaining" and not a lack of cooldown as well.

[Merusk]

Chain Lighting hasn't had a CD for Ele shaman since at least when I returned in Cata.   It's your Go-To AOE spell for the spec so it's spammable.  You guys had me second-guessing myself so I just logged in to the shaman and verified.  Resto had a 3s CD, Ele had 0 CD and a 1.22 sec cast time.

[Draegan]

That gear change is fucking retarded.  Wow.
WOW is slowly evolving or devolving (depending on your neckbeard level) into lobby game full of PVE and PVP instances where you collect gear and tokens with a pre-determined amount of people.  It started off with 40 mans and will slowly go to 10 man, 5 man, 2 man, and solo.  Who needs an open world anymore honestly?  WOW's next expansion should just be adding 30 dungeons of different sizes and scopes that can be repeated from a central hub of land.  That would be more entertaining actually imo for what the game is today.

That or they should go the complete opposite direction and just create a world full of open-world dungeons and get rid of instances.  Except the open world dungeons are phased so that only a certain number of people can play in them.  Put in some open/public/dynamic grouping system and put in a LFD tool that teleports you to the spot outside the dungeon in the open world.

I would do option B if I was in charge.

[Ashamanchill]

Isn't that just Rift basically? They just need to keep doing what they have always done, but do so less boneheadedly.

[Paelos]

Looks like LFR is getting a stacking 5% HP/Dam/Heal "fail buff" every time you wipe on a boss up to 10 stacks, until you kill that boss.

[Lakov_Sanite]

 

[Zetor]

Meh. I can't remember the last time I actually saw a LFR group blow up (and I don't do non-LFR raids due to schedule issues). Some bosses can cause a wipe or two, but it's fairly straightforward as long as the tanks know their stuff. Are there really so many groups crashing and burning?

[Fabricated]

Looks like LFR is getting a stacking 5% HP/Dam/Heal "fail buff" every time you wipe on a boss up to 10 stacks, until you kill that boss.

Ahahahah. I wonder how long it'll take before they do naked LFR runs where you just zerg a boss with no equipment on and intentionally wipe 5-10 times in a row as fast as possible, then just switch your gear on and own the fuck out of it.

[Merusk]

Meh. I can't remember the last time I actually saw a LFR group blow up (and I don't do non-LFR raids due to schedule issues). Some bosses can cause a wipe or two, but it's fairly straightforward as long as the tanks know their stuff. Are there really so many groups crashing and burning?

When they made the changes to Garalon a few weeks ago, my Rogue came-in to a group that had already failed 3 times, then proceeded to wipe another two.

[Ingmar]

Looks like LFR is getting a stacking 5% HP/Dam/Heal "fail buff" every time you wipe on a boss up to 10 stacks, until you kill that boss.

Ahahahah. I wonder how long it'll take before they do naked LFR runs where you just zerg a boss with no equipment on and intentionally wipe 5-10 times in a row as fast as possible, then just switch your gear on and own the fuck out of it.

That seems unlikely to be efficient, unless boss fights are a lot longer than they used to be.

[Azazel]

LFR boss fights are a 10-minute excersise in trying not to fall asleep.

[Simond]

Except Elegon, which is three lots of 3 minutes of trying not to fall asleep with two intervals of ing at idiots.
(This week it was "Who died this time? ....oh, the main tank" )

[Simond]

    On Normal and Heroic mode, zone-wide auras have been activated in Mogu’shan Vaults, Heart of Fear, and Terrace of Endless Spring, reducing the health and damage of all enemies therein by 10%. A NPC near the entrance within each zone explains this, and offers to deactivate the buff for the benefit of brave/foolhardy adventurers.

    Level 90 players that use Dungeon Finder to look for a random Dungeon or Scenario will receive additional bonus Valor Points upon completing specific Dungeons or Scenarios.
    Dungeons
    Siege of Niuzao Temple: 5 bonus Valor Points
    Scholomance: 10 bonus Valor Points
    Shadow-Pan Monastery: 15 bonus Valor Points
    Completing the Scenarios: Brewmoon Festival, Greenstone Village, A Little Patience, and Theramore’s Fall will award 5 additional Valor Points.

Someone's lost an argument at Blizzard.