The day the Twinkie died.

[cmlancas]

You must be lucky. The Publix a few blocks from my house has the most unhappy poorly treated staff I have ever seen.

PM me the location of your store and any specific things you've seen?  We take customer complaints very seriously.

[rattran]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_HOSTESS_BANKRUPTCY

In court Thursday, an attorney for Hostess noted that the company is no longer able to pay retiree benefits, which come to about $1.1 million a month. Hostess stopped contributing to its union pension plans more than a year ago.

$2.3 billion/year in revenue, but it can't handle a million a month in pensions. And it wants approval for $1.8 million in executive bonuses, larger if they conclude the liquidation promptly 

[Paelos]

Yep, they were fucking over the workers. No shock there.

It's another reason why I don't believe in pensions. Even if the economics are good, they are out of your control and run by people who can absolutely screw you over.

[WayAbvPar]

The only problem with pensions is we allow companies not to fund them.

While that can be a problem, it's certainly not the major problem. The major issue is you're essentially guessing on when people die. Which when you think about it, it's really stupid when the alternative is allowing people to just put their money in their own accounts.

I thought that was why actuarial tables exist?

[rattran]

We covered that. Paelos doesn't seem to understand the core concept of Actuarial Science or statistics. Which oddly seems typical for accountants.

[Paelos]

We covered that. Paelos doesn't seem to understand the core concept of Actuarial Science or statistics. Which oddly seems typical for accountants.

I understand it fine. It has nothing to do with the fact that no matter how much education or number cruching you try to put on it, you are suggesting you can predict the future (which itself is so fucking arrogant it makes me cringe). Within tolerable limits, I have no problem with it being used to establish long term government plans, metrics for demographic shifts and insurance coverage of a population, or other government goals.

I do have a problem with it in corporate enterprise pensions because A - I don't believe in the long term feasibility of a corporation like I do a government, B - the populations of a corporation are smaller and can be less predictable than a larger scale population blended amongst a government pool, and C - Human elements such as funding concerns, economic concerns, mismanagement, and general greed can bypass any actuarial results and fuck up the entire enterpise.

EDIT: And I should also add that this whole pension thing is a relatively new concept when you think about our economic development. I'm not entirely sure that it's the way to go because of the uncertainty involved and the discounting that actuaries do on the pension models for present value in regardes to funded/underfunded.

[Hammond]

Sigh,

The unions knew Hostess would screw them out of their retirement so no real surprise there.  Neither is the bosses trying to give themselves bonuses.

I am just waiting to see who buys up the pieces and how much of each chunk they are going to buy.  Also I am curious how many people will end up jobs with the new companies that were laid off.

[Evildrider]

My friend's dad is in that union and I was told that none of them expect to get their jobs back.  There's maybe a 10% chance that the facilities that Hostess used will be brought back online.  At least in the Chicago area.  He is not one of the ones happy that they pushed too hard and lost everything.

[Ingmar]

Lost everything seems like a mischaracterization. Lost current job to save (already earned) pension. Not sure that's a bad trade, but I'm not in that position.

[kaid]

Lost everything seems like a mischaracterization. Lost current job to save (already earned) pension. Not sure that's a bad trade, but I'm not in that position.

The problem is they lost the job and the pension. In liquidation pension is in the unsecured debt category so if they get any of the pension money it will be pennies on the dollar.

[Ingmar]

Hm, that is not what I gathered from Goumindong's earlier post about the payout order.

[Teleku]

Yeah, I've seen a number of people in this thread say somebody is going to buy the factories and rehire everybody, but that's not what I'm reading.  Consensus seems to be some companies will buy out the brands and then just expand production at their current facilities, with minimal hiring at those places.  General consensus seems to be that almost all the hostess factories are going to be shuttered for good, along with the employees who worked at them.

[MahrinSkel]

Part of it was that it was following a script that the unions have seen before.  Management pushes a company to the brink, demands concessions from unions, loads on more debt and sucks more money out of the pensions, lather rinse repeat until there's nothing left but the brands, the debts, and the fat wads of cash management extracted.  And it wasn't like the process had just barely started with Hostess, it was well along.

So the unions put on the brakes when there was still something left for the worker's pensions.  Hostess was going to die, in 5 or 10 years, no matter what.

--Dave

[Hammond]

In one of the articles I read a "unnamed potential buyer" was touring one of the factories and asked about hiring the people that were currently working there.  I suspect at the very least a few bakers will be offered jobs.  Due to the fact that they need somebody experienced in showing people the proper way to make these products.  However I imagine there will be very very few people that get jobs from that.

Teamsters most likely will be better off due to the extremely high demand for truck drivers right now.

[rattran]

There's a high demand for truckers, there's a very, very low demand for teamsters.

[Selby]

Yeah, I've seen a number of people in this thread say somebody is going to buy the factories and rehire everybody, but that's not what I'm reading.  Consensus seems to be some companies will buy out the brands and then just expand production at their current facilities, with minimal hiring at those places.  General consensus seems to be that almost all the hostess factories are going to be shuttered for good, along with the employees who worked at them.

Any business would have to be high to consider taking on the union employees and history\debt that comes with it, especially since Hostess management painted them with the brush of "these guys forced the company out of business."  No, what is for sale is the IP and recipes for the brands, that actually has intrinsic value.  Same with the plants and factories, those are real estate and have an actual value.  The employees and their pension?  Not something another company is going to buy unless they feel sorry for them and we all know that doesn't make good business sense.  At best some people from the union and management will find other jobs in the companies that buy the remaining brands, but chances are it won't be anything like what it was.  It will be starting over again.

[Paelos]

http://www.npr.org/2012/06/07/154519830/which-workers-need-unions-and-which-dont

If yall have some time, that's a great piece on the union situation in the united states done by NPR from several angles. It's essentially a transcript that I found very informative.

[Abagadro]

Hm, that is not what I gathered from Goumindong's earlier post about the payout order.

He was talking out of his ass.   That may be how stuff is liquidated in a textbook voluntary wind down, but this is a Chapter 7 bankruptcy. There is no such thing as "input costs funds" in the bankruptcy liquidation process. The issue is the priority of the claim  under Section 507.  Unfunded pension liability is generally treated as an unsecured creditor which is pretty far down the list of who gets paid in a Chapter 7. The PBGC has tired to get their costs of scooping up the underfunded pension included as priority administrative expense but courts have generally shot it down.  This shit gets really complicated here because of the multi-employer plan and that it is also covered by ERISA. The pensions are likely going to be paid in some form or fashion but it may be reduced or even terminated depending upon how the MEPP and PBGC want to handle it.

[Shannow]

Yeah, I've seen a number of people in this thread say somebody is going to buy the factories and rehire everybody, but that's not what I'm reading.  Consensus seems to be some companies will buy out the brands and then just expand production at their current facilities, with minimal hiring at those places.  General consensus seems to be that almost all the hostess factories are going to be shuttered for good, along with the employees who worked at them.

Any business would have to be high to consider taking on the union employees and history\debt that comes with it, especially since Hostess management painted them with the brush of "these guys forced the company out of business."  No, what is for sale is the IP and recipes for the brands, that actually has intrinsic value.  Same with the plants and factories, those are real estate and have an actual value.  The employees and their pension?  Not something another company is going to buy unless they feel sorry for them and we all know that doesn't make good business sense.  At best some people from the union and management will find other jobs in the companies that buy the remaining brands, but chances are it won't be anything like what it was.  It will be starting over again.

From an article I read the bakeries themselves are somewhat efficient and useful , while the distribution side of the business is the one that will be done away with. This is why the Bakery union went this route in hopes that a buyer will be able to pick up the production facilities (and it's already trained workers) and not the distribution side making it a worthwhile purchase. I guess we'll see.

[Paelos]

There's certainly a need for skilled labor. And a need for Ho-Hos around the holidays.

[rattran]

There's certainly a need for skilled labor. And a need for Ho-Ho-Hos around the holidays.

fify

[Nebu]

I am a total Ho-Ho hoe.  Particularly around the holidays.  The little Debbie version just doesn't cut it. 

[Evildrider]

I used to love these but they never really sold in my area.

[RhyssaFireheart]

I am a total Ho-Ho hoe.  Particularly around the holidays.  The little Debbie version just doesn't cut it. 

This.  Now I'm craving Ho-Hos.  I wonder if there's any in the vending machine here.  I haven't had lunch yet!

[Paelos]

I like these at Christmas for some reason. Probably the tree colors http://www.littledebbie.com/products/ChristmasCakes.asp

[Shannow]

I like these at Christmas for some reason. Probably the tree colors http://www.littledebbie.com/products/ChristmasCakes.asp

sugar crack!

[Mrbloodworth]

Those things...those things are evil.

[Signe]

Those two last thingies must never have sold in any area I ever lived in because I've never seen them before!