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Draegan
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Reply #210 on: June 20, 2013, 01:28:13 PM

What's the difference between Dota2 and LOL? Is one better than the other? I know there are different things like creep denial, gold loss, and you don't have runes/masteries and all toons are available at the beginning.

Is LOL more popular because, I assume it's been out a long time? I'm a moba noob, so i'm wrapping my head around it.
HaemishM
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Reply #211 on: June 20, 2013, 01:35:50 PM

Here's my take - keep in mind I tried DotA 2, never played the first DotA and went back to LOL after DotA 2.

Dota 2 has a lot more micromanagement. It has a SHITTY shit interface that is a holdover from the original (in that the goddamn UI takes up over 1/4 of the screen). It has creep denial and gold loss, your champ can level up to 20, instead of leveling up skills you can level up stats. You have to use a scroll to port back to spawn and there are shops out in the lanes including a "secret shop" that has certain special items only available there. To me, it feels a little more tactical/slower but that may be the interface. Also, you can't surrender, but after a certain time frame, you can quit the game as an individual and not be penalized.

LOL is a lot more streamlined and n00b friendly. All DotA 2's champs are available without having to purchase them.

Draegan
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Reply #212 on: June 20, 2013, 01:49:11 PM

So it's more complicated? Where LOL is more arcading/quick fun, DOTA2 takes more thought into builds while playing the game?
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Reply #213 on: June 20, 2013, 02:03:34 PM

I think a bit, yes. It felt a little more complicated to me.

Rasix
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Reply #214 on: June 20, 2013, 02:09:13 PM

Take into mind that I'm a LoL player and my first exposure to playing DOTA was DOTA2.  I never played the original.

Dota2
Pros:
It's DOTA.  Game is just DOTA with new graphics.
More micro-intensive.
Great spectator mode.
More kills.  Lots of long CC and no flash means people die and not survive.  Not so many disengages and dashes.
Better map.  Jungle is more spread out.
Less stale meta than LoL.
More interesting item builds.
You don't pay for champs.  
Better client.
Community seems a bit more mature. I'm guessing they're older and there's less of them.  That helps.
Lots of really OP and imbalanced shit.

Cons.
It's DOTA.  It has not changed in a billion years.
More micro-intensive.
It has a bunch of counterintuitive crap in it.  Jungle creep stacking.  Minion aggro is weird as hell. Power treads.
Fuck tons of long, long CC.
The meta is a lot more confusing.
The store is shit.  Using the courier is shit.
Movement is not as fluid as LoL.  Animations are bad and make last hitting more difficult than it should be.
Games go on a lot longer than LoL.  Games often go on for more than 50 minutes.
AP champs don't scale.
Support players are basically low econ bitches.  You don't really get items and you're always down on levels.
The queue system isn't nearly as nice.
In game UI is dick.
The community has a serious case of butthurtitis.  You literally cannot watch a DOTA2 tournament stream without the chat constantly complaining about LoL.  It is a giant carrot up their asses that they refuse to remove.  DOTA2 players really look down on LoL players.  LoL players really don't think about DOTA2 much.
Lots of really OP and imbalanced shit.


That all being said. I like watching both.  DOTA2 is fun to watch, but playing it seemed like too much of an uphill climb.  Plus, I just don't have the time for how long the games go on for.  LoL's pro-scene is much more structured, which has its pros and cons.

edit: Yes, a lot of things fall into both columns.  A lot of what DOTA fans love LoL fans can't stand and vice-versa.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 03:00:10 PM by Rasix »

-Rasix
Kail
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Reply #215 on: June 20, 2013, 02:50:44 PM

So it's more complicated? Where LOL is more arcading/quick fun, DOTA2 takes more thought into builds while playing the game?

That seems a bit exaggerated, since both games are still very similar.  LoL in general just feels smoother and more cohesive control wise, while Dota's got a lot of carryover baggage from Warcraft 3's engine, so in a sense I suppose LoL is more arcadey, but it's not like Awesomenauts or something where matches are all fifteen minutes of twich action, they're both still extremely similar.  

Builds in both games are pretty defined, but in Dota, there's a lot more emphasis on items special abilities (e.g. Blink Dagger, which teleports you a short distance), while in LoL it's largely about stat bonuses (+20 Attack Damage etc.) which amplify the character's normal skills, so there's more room for weird builds in Dota, but both games have pretty heavy reliance on "core" items for certain types of characters.

But Rasix pretty much covered the details pretty well, IMO.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 02:57:39 PM by Kail »
Megrim
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Reply #216 on: June 20, 2013, 04:25:22 PM

You don't build support Zyra as a traditional support. Once you get Philo stone and ruby sightstone, AP the fuck out of her. Haunting Guise > Liandry's Torment, Sorc's Shoes (or the cooldown boots or merc treads depending) and Rylai's at the very least. Late game she will be a fantastic damage addition and crowd control and nobody notices those goddamn plants plinking their ass until she drops the ult and BAM KNOCKUP EXTRA DAMAGE YOU JUST GOT MELTED.

Support as Zyra. Buy a Soulstealer. Support your team by killing the shit out of the other guys.

What's the difference between Dota2 and LOL? Is one better than the other? I know there are different things like creep denial, gold loss, and you don't have runes/masteries and all toons are available at the beginning.

Is LOL more popular because, I assume it's been out a long time? I'm a moba noob, so i'm wrapping my head around it.

If you want a DotA2 invite to try it out for yourself, I'm sure plenty of guys here have one spare. I know I do. If you do decide to play, make sure that you play a few games with bots first, as they can give a good introduction to the game, and will allow you to understand some to the core game mechanics (courier, wards, scrolls of tp, consumables, etc...).

The game, in a nutshell, is basically a more sophisticated and refined version of what you'll find in League. As a result, the learning curve is harder (some people refer to it as a 'learning cliff'), but the opportunity for reward and satisfaction is also greater.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 04:36:30 PM by Megrim »

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Goumindong
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Reply #217 on: June 20, 2013, 06:46:10 PM

its that minus the sophistication and refinement yes. Curve is similar to League
Fordel
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Reply #218 on: June 20, 2013, 09:45:02 PM

I'd disagree with Dota not changing, even in the short time frame of Dota2, the game is not what it was when I first got my key.


The big difference between Dota and LoL in my mind, is the only thing you pay for in Dota is cosmetics. Mechanically every single thing in Dota is available equally in every game. There's no persistence between games. Riot has every incentive to make their latest heroes be broken as shit so everyone has to go buy them or whatever. I really do not like that aspect of the game, at all. To a point where I still haven't even tried LoL because of it. (It's totally a principle thing too, because all I fucking do in Dota is play Windrunner against bots, so it's not like I'm taking advantage of the huge hero pool  why so serious? ) I'll pay for pretty pants, but I won't pay for a mechanical advantage.


The UI is the same UI that I've used since Starcraft 1, standard RTS UI with standard RTS controls. I don't really get the hate for it, nor the store. People like what they like though. The Dota2 Client is fully integrated with Steam, which I do enjoy a lot for ease of use and convenience.



As a SPECTATOR, LoL is boring. Nothing fucking happens and it's maddening. Someone almost sorta died 15 mins into the game WOOOO. Like, what killed it for me, is when I was watching a match and one team was stacked on top of each other hiding in a bush, and the other team was doing the same thing in another bush across from them, near whatever the LoL version of Roshan is called. Just fucking kill each other already!  why so serious?


Dota is way more entertaining to watch, crazy and wild are the expected norms in Dota. It makes the game more complicated for good or ill though. I'm fairly confident you could take the craziest LoL game and it would be relatively tame by Dota standards. (side note: someone link me the craziest LoL tourney game they can think of, I'd really like to see a LoL match I didn't fall asleep to).

Dota is not forgiving, would be the main thing. You make a mistake, you WILL be punished for it. IE: you will probably die! Control wise, if you are comfortable with War3/Sc2 etc, you won't have much issues with Dota. It's still a game where if you really want to be really good, your going to need hundreds if not thousands of games under your belt. League is no different though.




The Dota community is just as bad as the LoL community, but with a inferiority complex and like 10 years of extra baggage. Valve is doing it's best to try and sort it out, but it's pretty fucking bad. It's like, Bi-polar almost. You can be in one game and everyone on your team is super friendly and helpful, everyone getting along and giving advice and tips and taking criticism well etc... then the next game its just four shit flinging monkey's trying to beat each other off. They wear gibbering retard like a badge of honor.

If you include the War3 Dota1 map, Dota is probably the most played PC game in the world outside of like peggle or something like that. Valve is doing what valve does though, which is take its sweet ass time on rolling out Dota2 and mostly being hands off tourney wise. Riot conversely has been pumping money into it's own tourney system like crazy and buying itself exclusivity wherever it can. (which just makes the dota fanboys rage even more  why so serious? ).



Rasix, try SkyWrath mage, his nukes scale with Int. He's also a bird http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hPFyqqSXeo

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Rasix
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Reply #219 on: June 20, 2013, 09:50:31 PM

Eh, I seriously won't ever play DOTA again.  It's nothing against the game, it just takes too long to play.

-Rasix
Fordel
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Reply #220 on: June 20, 2013, 09:51:53 PM

BIRDS!

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Rasix
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Reply #221 on: June 20, 2013, 10:05:30 PM

Riot's attempts to increase the amount of kills/action hasn't really paid off.  I can't recall it ever leading to a faster paced game.

LoL has a few problems that keep the kill count low:
-Flash is too powerful.
-Map is smaller/less open.  Harder to get around wards.  Easier to run away.  
-Turrets are more powerful.
-No smoke.
-While LoL has some powerful CC, it's really nothing like DOTA cc.  That is some shit that will fuck you up if you misstep.
-Easier to buy survivability and health (at least from my limited knowledge of DOTA itemization).
-Tanks seem to be more popular/effective.
-Recall.
-Game snowballs a lot harder. Teams are less likely to just go balls deep due to this.

Game has slowed a bit since season 2 and focus has shifted to more objective oriented gameplay.  

It's hard to watch the good stuff right now. Good LoL is being played in Korea and China, not the US or EU right now.  US and EU have the more visible leagues to the casual viewer.

edit:

I've been watching a fair amount of DOTA2 tournaments/leagues as well as LoL.  I can't tell if the DOTA teams are just fucking about or what.  The game quality is incredibly uneven at the moment.  The level of play in both LCS in LoL is a bit low.  Seems like everyone had too much fun on their vacations.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 10:10:00 PM by Rasix »

-Rasix
Fordel
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Reply #222 on: June 20, 2013, 10:15:17 PM

Health in Dota just comes from STR early on. Stout Shields and +Armor items are the other bit of it early on.

Hero's have wildly different survivability due to their skill sets too.

I want to say LoL Heroes are more even in their scaling over all, where Dota Heroes can vary WILDLY on their effectiveness at each stage of the game. Like I don't think LoL has anything comparable to say Enchantress, which can bring herself and two charmed jungle creeps to a lane for a gank at level 1.


Does LoL have elevation in it's terrain? I know their bushes are lame and can't be destroyed like Dota Trees.

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Azuredream
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Reply #223 on: June 20, 2013, 10:32:23 PM

Riot has every incentive to make their latest heroes be broken as shit so everyone has to go buy them or whatever.

?

This doesn't happen.

The Lord of the Land approaches..
Goumindong
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Reply #224 on: June 21, 2013, 01:27:54 AM

Health in Dota just comes from STR early on. Stout Shields and +Armor items are the other bit of it early on.

Hero's have wildly different survivability due to their skill sets too.

I want to say LoL Heroes are more even in their scaling over all, where Dota Heroes can vary WILDLY on their effectiveness at each stage of the game. Like I don't think LoL has anything comparable to say Enchantress, which can bring herself and two charmed jungle creeps to a lane for a gank at level 1.


Does LoL have elevation in it's terrain? I know their bushes are lame and can't be destroyed like Dota Trees.

No, no elevation.

In general very little happens in league where there isn't an obvious tell for when it will/is happening.

The main differences between DOTA2 and League is that league is more smooth in its actions (largely because champions don't have turn radius's) and that it has defined tiers of item scaling between attack damage, ability power, and tank. Whereas DOTA2 has relatively undefined item scaling [rather its all champion scaling]. League has removed as many of the impediments to champion interaction as possible(like the deny mechanic) while also removing hard carrying(by item scaling and champion scaling mechanics) so that the farming aspect of the game is less important to the "killing the end point" mechanic of the game

The secret shop, couriers, et all are hold overs from when shit was crazy and every crazy pants idea that someone wanted to add got added(which is only one of the reasons that League is so far ahead from a game design perspective). These have been removed(thank god). There are a couple of smaller points (leagues Meta changes more than Dota's[yea for trilanes!]) and some of the bigger points might be considered in different ways [Dota has a farm priority order due to its scaling mechanic and the ability to share gold via purchasing consumables for other players* whereas league has positional roles based more on team fight dynamics] but thats basically it.

*way to keep your supports even more poor!

« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 01:55:11 AM by Goumindong »
Draegan
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Reply #225 on: June 21, 2013, 06:26:33 AM

Played some shitty dota2 games last night against bots. The game is just different. The UI is both awesome and terrible. I love the game menu/ui but the in-game overlay is way too big like Haem said.

Last hitting is hard, what the fuck.

In the end, I play these games with my brother in law, and we both first timed it last night for a few hours. If you put two guys who have a ton of fun playing League, jump into a game with 100 heroes, unknown items, you're just not going to have a good time. At least when i jumped into LOL a few weeks ago, I had a lot of hand holding to get my bearings.

I love some of the mechanics and the heroes look really cool, but with denials, secret shops, and other things, the game just feels complicated. Which is odd, since I like complicated. I suppose I feel like I'm playing WOW for the first time in MOP and you hand me a level 90 character and tell me quickly pick out your gear and go raid... in 10 minutes.
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Reply #226 on: June 21, 2013, 08:24:04 AM

Yeah, the initial DOTA 2 learning curve is WAY steeper than LOL, partly due to the added complexity and partly due to the WTFSTUPID UI.

Draegan
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Reply #227 on: June 21, 2013, 01:46:16 PM

I felt like I was trying to play EVE for the first time. (or second, third, fourth, fifth, or sixth time... take your pick)
Der Helm
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Reply #228 on: June 26, 2013, 02:44:59 PM

I thought I would hate Dota2, but now I think it is the better game.

I get frustrated when I try to deny creeps and towers while playing Lol.

I do think though that my game has improved significantly from playing Dota2. Esp. last hitting and lane mechanics.

Good for my that my inactivity dropped me in Bronze1.  Heartbreak awesome, for real

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Reply #229 on: June 27, 2013, 02:59:37 PM

What keeps me away from DOTA2 seems in the increase in mechanics I'm not fond of, i.e the laning phase and decrease in the mechanics I do like, wacky builds and low cc.

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Megrim
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Reply #230 on: June 27, 2013, 04:06:28 PM

Ok, so next question; new Evelynn. Yes/no/how? New ult looks pretty good, and from limited experimentation seems made right for Rylai's. Rest of her skills I'm not so sure where to go with. Does she lane, jungle, or what?

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HaemishM
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Reply #231 on: June 27, 2013, 07:55:23 PM

She's a junlger or mid laner. She's good but takes skill. Very good roamer. Her Q has a built-in slow I think, so I'm not sure if Rylai's is necessary (though not necessarily bad).

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Reply #232 on: June 27, 2013, 08:51:34 PM

No slow. Her R has a very weak slow however. She is basically lacking in cc.

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Draegan
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Reply #233 on: June 30, 2013, 07:37:50 AM

I'm looking to learn top lane, anyone have any suggestions of what champs to mess around with? I'm thinking Irelia, Rengar, Tryn and Renekton.
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Reply #234 on: June 30, 2013, 07:47:43 AM

I'm looking to learn top lane, anyone have any suggestions of what champs to mess around with? I'm thinking Irelia, Rengar, Tryn and Renekton.

Ireila or Renekton. There solid choices regardless of what the meta looks like.

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Reply #235 on: June 30, 2013, 11:25:32 AM

Jax is also really strong, especially late game. He's one of those champs that can just snowball into a spinning, jumping ball of crit death if he's allowed to farm. Nasus can be, but you have to learn to farm with his Q to be effective. Teemo is fun top lane, another one of those snowballers but he's very easy to counter if you pick him before their top is picked. I had a game last night where I was Teemo against Garen. He MURDERED me in the lane phase, almost taking down the second turret. Then I just got enough farm to get built up with my poison maxed and adding AP and AS, and by the end of the game I was triple-killing people who were stupid enough to think they could kill me before my poison and on-hit magic damage turned them into puddles of goo. Started 1-6, ended 14-8 and having backdoored from the top lane to kill every one of their nexus turrets before dying.

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Reply #236 on: June 30, 2013, 10:33:25 PM

I'm looking to learn top lane, anyone have any suggestions of what champs to mess around with? I'm thinking Irelia, Rengar, Tryn and Renekton.

Are you time traveling back 18 months ago? If so learn those champs.

If not learn Jayce, Elise, Rumble and Kennen.

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Rasix
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Reply #237 on: June 30, 2013, 11:40:58 PM

Could learn some Malphite (although you see him more mid now) and Shen too.  Too bad they're banned like 90% of the time in low elo last time I played.

-Rasix
Draegan
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Reply #238 on: July 01, 2013, 06:13:40 AM

So I bought Renekton last night just before I realized he was free. Luckily I loved the shit out of him and actually had some of my best CS games ever with him last night. He's going to be my main for a while now unless I want to try jungling.

I really enjoy having not to deal with mana. My main difficulty with the gator is having awareness of my fury and to build it up before going in on a trade with my opponent.
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Reply #239 on: July 09, 2013, 09:55:32 PM

Some big changes for the patch tomorrow, looks like.

Among other things:
  • Balance reworks for a lot of champions, obviously.  Leblanc gets some big changes.  Draven gets a new passive called "League of Draven," apparently that's not a joke.  Kennen nerfed  angry
  • Ward kill payouts are now split between the person spotting the ward (i.e. the person with the oracle/pink stick) and the person who last hits it, to give supports some gold.  Also, Oracles now has a shorter duration but doesn't go away on death.
  • Specific ability changes for specific maps are finally coming in (a nerf for Kassadin on Dominion, for example)
  • Added a new item for ARAM only, called the orb of winter, that grants a periodically regenerating shield.  Supposed to help against poke champs, sounds ungodly useful to me.
  • New ultimate Udyr skin, I think, coming out?  Maybe?  Also, a few new skin bundles being temporarily added and some skins are being retired.
  • The Yi rework is apparently supposed to be going in 3.10, so the patch after this one.
Rasix
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Reply #240 on: July 11, 2013, 07:36:29 AM

It's a bit buggy.  Movement was glitching out on my pretty hard and was also getting some bad framerate drops.

-Rasix
Megrim
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Reply #241 on: July 11, 2013, 04:21:47 PM

Le Blanc changes don't seem to have made much difference. I was a little concerned because I like the champ, but after a quick test run it seems that she still blows up everything she looks at.

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Reply #242 on: August 01, 2013, 02:29:43 PM

So did the Master Yi changes just essentially nutshot the whole idea of AP Yi? Because it sounds like everything runs though AD with him now.

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Reply #243 on: August 01, 2013, 02:38:55 PM

So did the Master Yi changes just essentially nutshot the whole idea of AP Yi? Because it sounds like everything runs though AD with him now.

Yup.  He's pure AD except for the heal, but the heal is % based so there's really no need to level it past 1.
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Reply #244 on: August 01, 2013, 02:41:33 PM

So did the Master Yi changes just essentially nutshot the whole idea of AP Yi? Because it sounds like everything runs though AD with him now.

I dunno, it definitely doesn't seem viable for teamfights now.  I can't see someone winning trades with just lichbane for damage.  He still might work as a split pusher, though.
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