So what's the big deal?

[Jayce]

no matter how often you kill someone they can be back again in 2 minutes rushing you during a pull.

This is the single biggest issue in WoW PvP to me.  I have been considering whether faction-controlled graveyards in contested areas would be a good solution, and with some tweaking I think it would.

[Sky]

Other people may enjoy the diablo-esque loot system where some boss mobs have a 1% drop chance of a super good (i.e. purple) item, or any world mob has a .0000001% chance of droping a blue/purple item, but I personally don't.  If there's an item I want I'd like to be able to work towards it in a reasonable fashion, not kill the same crap over and over and hope I get lucky. 

Yup, hate it. At least they got rid of the EQ style of also having the mob itself being a rare spawn, on top of rare item spawning.

I can't believe I ever played EQ.

[HaemishM]

no matter how often you kill someone they can be back again in 2 minutes rushing you during a pull.

This is the single biggest issue in WoW PvP to me.  I have been considering whether faction-controlled graveyards in contested areas would be a good solution, and with some tweaking I think it would.

Yes, it would be a much better solution. I'm very surprised that they haven't implemented it in some way. It didn't make sense to be in a zone where most of the NPC's were of the opposing faction, yet I ended up in the same graveyard as the other side. Since control of graveyards will be a big part of the Battlegrounds, I'm wondering if it's just that they don't have any mechanism for control of those yards in the non-instanced areas.

[MrHat]

no matter how often you kill someone they can be back again in 2 minutes rushing you during a pull.

This is the single biggest issue in WoW PvP to me.  I have been considering whether faction-controlled graveyards in contested areas would be a good solution, and with some tweaking I think it would.

Yes, it would be a much better solution. I'm very surprised that they haven't implemented it in some way. It didn't make sense to be in a zone where most of the NPC's were of the opposing faction, yet I ended up in the same graveyard as the other side. Since control of graveyards will be a big part of the Battlegrounds, I'm wondering if it's just that they don't have any mechanism for control of those yards in the non-instanced areas.

Wouldn't bringing back the durability penalty be better?  Make it so that if you kill someone more than -8 levels from you, they don't suffer any penalty.  But if you get killed by anyone lower than you, or anyone +8 higher than you, you suffer 5% durability loss.

This would make it so that after 20 deaths you HAD to go back to your homeland or a friendly place in order to repair.  And don't give me that griefing bullshit, 5% is nothing, 10% is nothing, even 15% durability loss doesn't cost anything.  But it SUCKS to get 0 durability.

[Rasix]

Yup, hate it. At least they got rid of the EQ style of also having the mob itself being a rare spawn, on top of rare item spawning.

Well, not completely.  There are a number of rare grey-elites that have a very good chance of dropping a blue item.  One is Ironeye that drops a good blue lvl 32 sword and the other is General Fangferror in Azshara that drops a very nice blue sword.  Both of these mobs have ridiculously long spawn times but the items they drop are really top notch for the level requirement for them and they drop the blue about 25-50% of the time.  Thus, people are always looking for them to the point of sitting in the exact spot they might spawn at for hours on end.   This isn't a common occurance though, most uber world drops (non instance)  are random.

I tried this last night with the good general.  Actually, the place he hangs out in is great for cash/green item farming (mobs are really easy with relatively painless special abilities).  It's seemingly a lot faster than Western Plaguelands but without the runecloth drops.   I think I spent a couple hours last night doing this and kept getting a lot of alliance visitors.  It was nice that most didn't stick around too long (some resemblence of tact?). The general popped for me once but instead I got a decent green instead of what I was looking for. 

Now, why the hell would I subject myself to this crap?  Well, I want to straight out buy my rogue a mount at 40.  Also, I need something nice for the rogue to dual wield with mr. Bloodrazor. Plus, I don't know, I kind of like the item hunt and mowing through mobs.   It's also one of the few things I can do left with my level 60 shaman.   I don't go out of my way to find groups for instances since I don't particularly like them. I'm also not in an uber guild so that I'd always have a group available (in my own 3 man guild and one of us just quit.. /sigh).   So, being on and doing something, sometimes people will hit you up for a group or help killing a mob, and if I feel up to it, I'll give it a shot.

Gah, I should reserve this rambling crap for the blog, which I never update like the addict I am.

[MrHat]

I think I spent a couple hours last night doing this and kept getting a lot of alliance visitors.  It was nice that most didn't stick around too long (some resemblence of tact?).

I found that once you get like 45-50, alliance will generally leave you alone.  I think the mount has something to do with that, when you're on your mount, no one really bothers you.

[El Gallo]

Yup, hate it. At least they got rid of the EQ style of also having the mob itself being a rare spawn, on top of rare item spawning.

I can't believe I ever played EQ.

I'm not sure how having Baron Rivendare being a 100% spawn with a 0.1% chance of dropping the Runeblade is an improvement over having the Ghoul Lord being a 25% spawn with a 25% chance of dropping a Short Sword of the Ykesha.  The 5% and under drop rates on BoE items have to go.

In any event, they have some rare spawn guys in instances, for example the guy who drops the arcanite reaper plans.  Not too many though.

[Train Wreck]

Well, were you inside the instance or in the outside portion of Deadmines?  I was working under the assumption that you were in the instance itself, in which case you will automatically res once you reach the portal and be back at the beginning of the instance.  But if you were in the outer portions of Deadmines, then I can see why you might have problems ressing in the middle of named mobs.  Still, need to res at the limit of your range and just start running in cases like that.

I'm assuming that instances start when you enter a portal, in which case, no, I hadn't made it inside the instance.  I was down there with a few groups that I had no association with, cleared everything out, then they are left, I was there by myself, and everything popped back at once.  My corpse was literally at the center of a very large circle of fuck.  Even at the res range borders, I was surounded by mobs as far as the eye could see.  But it doesn't matter because Angel ressing is quick and easy, which was one of my points about WoW being much more considerate of player-playing time than the MMORPGs I have been molested by. 

Corpse recovery in EQ would sometimes take all day long, and several deaths -- or I had to wait for my friends to log in to help.  I've seen some posters call WoW a dumbed-down EQ, but I see it as being smarter.

[Sky]

I'm not sure how having Baron Rivendare being a 100% spawn with a 0.1% chance of dropping the Runeblade is an improvement over having the Ghoul Lord being a 25% spawn with a 25% chance of dropping a Short Sword of the Ykesha.  The 5% and under drop rates on BoE items have to go.

I didn't say it was an improvement, I said I hated it. I hated EQ's random mob, random drop. WoW removed the random mob part. They are halfway to me liking it.

My hunter, who only has dropped or crafted gear, is in a world of hurt, equipment-wise. I've pretty much stoped playing her, most of her gear is -20 levels (mid 20 gear on a mid 40 character). I don't read thottbot to find where the 'good lewtz' drops outside instances, and I have no intentions on getting involved with the kind of folks that seem to focus on instances. Too bad there is no decent solo alternative to getting decent loot (besides the outrageous AH, I'm also broke, heh, and won't farm for cash). I guess it's better than EQ2, at any rate.

[Train Wreck]

I have no intentions on getting involved with the kind of folks that seem to focus on instances.

I take it most of the f13 crowd avoids instances.  Are they really so shitty?  I got the part about them talking blocks of several hours to complete, which runs counter to most of WoW's design philosophy of casual gaming, but what are the other reasons instances are so hated?

If I sound like a total noob talking, it's because I am.

[Jayce]

I have no intentions on getting involved with the kind of folks that seem to focus on instances.

I take it most of the f13 crowd avoids instances.  Are they really so shitty?  I got the part about them talking blocks of several hours to complete, which runs counter to most of WoW's design philosophy of casual gaming, but what are the other reasons instances are so hated?

If I sound like a total noob talking, it's because I am.

Well, there's instances and there's high-end instances.

Low end include places like Deadmines, the Stockades, Blackfathom Depths and so forth.  Those can be done in an hour or two, maybe three if you are working slowly.

I gather the high-end instances like "UBRS" (upper blackrock spire) take much longer.

The instance idea itself is great IMO.  It eliminates camping while keeping the dungeon crawl paradigm intact.  It's also nice on a PvP server that you can go take on dungeons in enemy and contested territory and not have to worry about being ganked if you can just make the instance gate.

[Rasix]

Well, there's serveral reasons.  This is mostly going to be pointed at high level instances, because up through Zul Farrak, most of them were just fine. 

1.  You need 5 people.  We did every instance in the game up to Zul'Farak with 3 people.  3 people trying to take on Stratholme, BRD or BRS would get fucking eaten alive.  5 mob+ pulls are unavoidable the later you get into the game.  It's sick.

2.  You need a priest.  A team of a couple support healers could probably handle some that a priest can, but none of them has that handy dandy shield or the aggro management abilities of a priest.  A shaman rarely also has the mana pool of a priest.

3.  You need a lot of tankage. Stuff starts hitting for a LOAD of hp. You should probably have a warrior.  A guild on my server loves to rebuke that they use 3 hunters, a warlock and a priest for most of their instances.  Well, gee whiz, I hope they'd be able to tank stuff with 4 fucking pets.  I feel sorry for that priest, playing a glorified veterinarian.   The thing is, if you can't keep the mobs off your soft targets, you're going to die.  Fast.

4.  They are very time consuming.  Most instances are at least 2 hour affairs.  Some like Mauradon and on up can take much much longer.   I don't like very time consuming dungeon crawls.  I get back EQ flashbacks: "Can't sleep, froglocks will eat me!"  "No, shithead, don't pull Trak there. Ohh fuck, there went the raid. Good job, assneck."   I have at most 3 hours to play each nice. 

Most of the neurological surgeons on my server take at least 30 minutes to an hour to get a group into an instance.  These people can't organize or communicate worth shit.  My 3 man group would take as much time as it took to fly and run to an instance, no more, no less.  No fucking around for 10 minutes and then realizing "ohh geeze, maybe I should hurry the fuck up".   Going from instant organization and great coordinate to the "hell that is other people" just took the damn wind out of my sails.

I'd prefer these instances to be in 1-2 hour chunks.  If it's a longer instance, just divide it up and have multiple entrances like Scarlet Monastery.  This would make the whole experience 100% better for me.  I just can't spend 3+ hours doing anything in this game and I really don't want to. 

5.  It basically boils down to the end game instances being completely antithetical to the previous 50+ levels of the game.  They're for big guilds, 5 man balanced teams, and people with large chunks of playing time devote to nothing but dungeon crawling through the most catasserfic shit designed by man (hyperbole here, I know EQ2 exists). 

I don't like it. I don't like that the best gear comes out of this crap.  I don't like that I'm going to be at a disadvantage in pvp due to the fact that my equipment is going to always suck nuts compared to some no life catasser that's on his 70 run through UBRS.

[pants]

I take it most of the f13 crowd avoids instances.  Are they really so shitty?  I got the part about them talking blocks of several hours to complete, which runs counter to most of WoW's design philosophy of casual gaming, but what are the other reasons instances are so hated?

If I sound like a total noob talking, it's because I am.

I don't think they're shitty at all.  In fact, the instances I've been in are damn fun.  However, they do require a fair block of time (we spent 5 hours doing 2 runs of Zul'Farrak last night), and with only 5 people in a group, you gotta be careful who you group with.  Get a few people new to mmorpgs who have soloed a lot, and you're in for a world of hurt in there.  But get a decent group and you can have a ball (and by decent I dont mean holy trinity, just people who have at least double digit IQs.)

If you get a chance - go to Scarlet Monastery in your mid-30s - thats a really fun instances, and you get to kill that damn Scarlet Crusade!

EDIT - And for disclosure, I haven't been to the top-end instances yet - lv51 here, so Zul'Farrak has been my highest.

[Jayce]

I don't like it. I don't like that the best gear comes out of this crap.  I don't like that I'm going to be at a disadvantage in pvp due to the fact that my equipment is going to always suck nuts compared to some no life catasser that's on his 70 run through UBRS.

I'm hoping that my l33t gold farming skillz and learning the ways of speculating on the AH might save me here.  All I have to do is outfit one person after all.  The instance campers can get their nice drops and as long as they sell them once in awhile, hopefully I'll be able to buy them.

[Train Wreck]

Sounds like the trick is to have a well established, 5-person group in play long before reaching the high-end instances.  Clearly, their design goes contrary to what the first 50 levels of WoW would lead you to expect. 

I wouldn't know the first thing about playing my Warlock in a group, as I haven't done it yet.  I was an Enchanter in EQ, so I know how to work as a team -- I just need to get in there and do it, the sooner the better.

BTW, are battlegrounds supposed to provide comperable equipment when they go live?  I guess I should actually read about them.  If they run anything like the AH in Ironforge, though, I don't see how they can do anything but suck.

A large-scale, lag-free gankfest would be ideal for me.

[Sky]

Well, there's serveral reasons.  This is mostly going to be pointed at high level instances, because up through Zul Farrak, most of them were just fine. 

1.  You need 5 people.  We did every instance in the game up to Zul'Farak with 3 people.  3 people trying to take on Stratholme, BRD or BRS would get fucking eaten alive.  5 mob+ pulls are unavoidable the later you get into the game.  It's sick.

2.  You need a priest.  A team of a couple support healers could probably handle some that a priest can, but none of them has that handy dandy shield or the aggro management abilities of a priest.  A shaman rarely also has the mana pool of a priest.

3.  You need a lot of tankage. Stuff starts hitting for a LOAD of hp. You should probably have a warrior.  A guild on my server loves to rebuke that they use 3 hunters, a warlock and a priest for most of their instances.  Well, gee whiz, I hope they'd be able to tank stuff with 4 fucking pets.  I feel sorry for that priest, playing a glorified veterinarian.   The thing is, if you can't keep the mobs off your soft targets, you're going to die.  Fast.

4.  They are very time consuming.  Most instances are at least 2 hour affairs.  Some like Mauradon and on up can take much much longer.   I don't like very time consuming dungeon crawls.  I get back EQ flashbacks: "Can't sleep, froglocks will eat me!"  "No, shithead, don't pull Trak there. Ohh fuck, there went the raid. Good job, assneck."   I have at most 3 hours to play each nice. 

Most of the neurological surgeons on my server take at least 30 minutes to an hour to get a group into an instance.  These people can't organize or communicate worth shit.  My 3 man group would take as much time as it took to fly and run to an instance, no more, no less.  No fucking around for 10 minutes and then realizing "ohh geeze, maybe I should hurry the fuck up".   Going from instant organization and great coordinate to the "hell that is other people" just took the damn wind out of my sails.

I'd prefer these instances to be in 1-2 hour chunks.  If it's a longer instance, just divide it up and have multiple entrances like Scarlet Monastery.  This would make the whole experience 100% better for me.  I just can't spend 3+ hours doing anything in this game and I really don't want to. 

5.  It basically boils down to the end game instances being completely antithetical to the previous 50+ levels of the game.  They're for big guilds, 5 man balanced teams, and people with large chunks of playing time devote to nothing but dungeon crawling through the most catasserfic shit designed by man (hyperbole here, I know EQ2 exists). 

I don't like it. I don't like that the best gear comes out of this crap.  I don't like that I'm going to be at a disadvantage in pvp due to the fact that my equipment is going to always suck nuts compared to some no life catasser that's on his 70 run through UBRS.

IE: when the game becomes EQ.

[Rasix]

I don't like it. I don't like that the best gear comes out of this crap.  I don't like that I'm going to be at a disadvantage in pvp due to the fact that my equipment is going to always suck nuts compared to some no life catasser that's on his 70 run through UBRS.

I'm hoping that my l33t gold farming skillz and learning the ways of speculating on the AH might save me here.  All I have to do is outfit one person after all.  The instance campers can get their nice drops and as long as they sell them once in awhile, hopefully I'll be able to buy them.

Most good, high level, difference making instance drops are bind on pickup, I think.  We'll be suck with hoping some of the random, word drop lvl 55+ blue andpurple make it to the auction house.  There aint a whole lot of it at the moment.

[Threash]

There are alot of misconceptions about instances on this thread so i'll try to clarify what i can:

1: Any instance can take as short as one hour to as long as 5, this is starting with the deadmines all the way through UBRS.  Last night we run UBRS twice, it took one and a half hours each time with 15 people (most people take 20 just to be safe).

2.  You don't have to run any instance 50+ times unless you absolutely must have every single .001% chance purple drop there is.  Alot of catasses plan their characters around things like deathstrikers and then bitch when it doesnt drop in 100 runs.  I've run most of the high end instances between 5-10 times each total and every item on me is of blue quality.

3.  Do expect to run them at least 5 times to finish every quest (where a good chunk of the loot comes from) and get a good assortment of items you want.  Of course the guy running UBRS 70 times is going to have better stuff than you, at least you shower regularly and manage to convince members of the opposite sex to sleep with you once in a while.

4.  Unless you don't mind being a good bit less effective than any other player of your level don't expect to be able to equip yourself on the AH past level 50 or so.  There are some very good blue/purple quality craftable items for people with 300 skill, the plans and usually the materials drop in high end instances so don't expect to equip yourself by crafting either.

5.  You need a guild.  Or at least have enough connections to get invited regularly into efficient, succesful raids.  A good guild is the difference between an  OMG-THIS-FUCKING-BLOWS three and a half hour  Strath Baron run with random Ironforge LFG brain dead idiots that ends with a paladin ninja looting bind on pick up mage set legs (been there, never again) to a 45 minute sweet-i-got-two-pieces-of-set-armor and everyone is happy Strath Baron run.

That last point is really the most important.  This is a MMORPG not a lan party, if you went all the way to 60 with only 3 friends which you already knew from before and expect to enjoy the high end content with random morons who you don't know and will never see again you will NOT have a good time.  I started playing WoW with one friend, we joined a small guild with smart people who play well, my guild couldn't run an instance by themselves but we raid every single night with other small, efficient guilds with competent players.  When ever i log in during the mornings and make the mistake of going on pick up raids i always end up kicking myself for it and wondering why anyone would ever go on them.

[El Gallo]

I can't imagine not playing in the instances, because typical outdoor hunting is not all that fun or challenging for the most part.  There are spots outdoors where it's worthwhile to have a group, or that push you to your limit as a soloer, but not all that many.  The hard-coded level-based miss/resist rates make it frustrating rather than challenging to fight something over 3 levels ahead of you.  Maybe I never looked hard enough, and mowing down mobs is fun in its own way, but instances have always been the meat of the game for me.

The instances are, for the most part, a lot of fun and require solid play and teamwork to get through at appropriate levels (this is why your average b-net jackmonkey only does instances when they are 5+ levels above the intended range).  They have good character and atmosphere, nice effort vs reward ratios, and some neat scripted encounters.

That said, I agree with Rasix that the final instances need a lot of work.  Doing Scholo without gimping it with 10-15 people is about as fun as pounding your balls with a hammer for 6 hours.  Strat is only slightly better.  That's 2/3 of your high-end 1 group content right there.  Those instances need to have less trash-clearing and they need save points and/or multiple entrances a la Scarlet Monestary, Uldaman, and Mauradon (which could use a second save point itself).  I think these things are more a matter of "the level 55+ game wasn't half done when they released and Blizzard is slow as fuck to do anything" than an intentional thing though.

It is a bit rough on people who come to WoW without friends and who are not particularly social, because the game does not foster community from 1-50 the way forced grouping games do.

edited for tone

[Xilren's Twin]

Most good, high level, difference making instance drops are bind on pickup, I think.  We'll be suck with hoping some of the random, word drop lvl 55+ blue andpurple make it to the auction house.  There aint a whole lot of it at the moment.

This begs the question, just how much does equipment affect your character's ability?  If they made EQ's mistake of your character basically being your equipment, then I can't understand why pvp at max level will suck for any non catasses.

If that turns out to be the case, i expect most players will stick to pve only.

Xilren

[Rasix]

In response to Threash:

Yep, I'm going to have to get a connection with the better organized guilds to make a run at some of the UBRS and other stuff. I really think there's only one guild that's doing UBRS on a consistent basis and that's the uber one.  And you're right, most of the longer instance runs I've seen are based purely on the inompetence of the people running the show.  Maybe your server has people that are a little more with it, but people here can't do anything without it taking for-fucking-ever. 

The problem is finding competent people that can do all of this.  I've yet to come across them on this server.  I've got a "friend" (ie some guy that think's we're chummy) that keeps inviting me to instance runs but they're all disasters.  God, I hate pickup groups.

Perhaps in a couple weeks or a month when more of the guilds mature, I'll take a shot at actually joining one that can handle the raids.  I'm not interested really in Molten Core (I hear this one is old school suck) or Onyxwhatever.   I just want to have some fun in 1-2 hour chunks without other people's stupidity having me headbutt my monitor.  If you say that's possible, then maybe I'll try it. 

Aside: For crafting, looks like I'm going to have to ditch my leatherworking and pick up herbalism now if I want to keep in swiftthistle and fadeleaf (my alchemist friend just fucking quit a couple days ago), perhaps even ditch skinning and take alchemy unless I want to start paying through the roof for potions.  I don't think dropping my 276 blacksmithing (I'm going to seriously cry when I delete that skill) or 170ish leatherworking (eh, never spent much on it)  is going to matter much since I won't be able to get the higher level patterns or most of the incredients.   Beyond alchemy, I just don't think crafting is worth it (well, higher level enchants ARE nice). 

[Threash]

Most good, high level, difference making instance drops are bind on pickup, I think.  We'll be suck with hoping some of the random, word drop lvl 55+ blue andpurple make it to the auction house.  There aint a whole lot of it at the moment.

This begs the question, just how much does equipment affect your character's ability?  If they made EQ's mistake of your character basically being your equipment, then I can't understand why pvp at max level will suck for any non catasses.

If that turns out to be the case, i expect most players will stick to pve only.

Xilren

I don't think its that much really.  Easy accessible weapons might have a dps of 35 or so, while rare blue instance drops are around 40.  It definitely helps but wether you ambush someone for 1000 or 1200 its going to freaking hurt anyways.

[Rasix]

Most good, high level, difference making instance drops are bind on pickup, I think.  We'll be suck with hoping some of the random, word drop lvl 55+ blue andpurple make it to the auction house.  There aint a whole lot of it at the moment.

This begs the question, just how much does equipment affect your character's ability?  If they made EQ's mistake of your character basically being your equipment, then I can't understand why pvp at max level will suck for any non catasses.

If that turns out to be the case, i expect most players will stick to pve only.

Xilren

It's going to be a difference.  I'm just not sure how huge. 

For reference, a friend of mine (that just quit) had a "beef" with the uber guild on this server.  He basically was one of the few people that actually would question their "uberness" and pointed out the ridiculousness of some of their strategies, their dumb as hell policies, and their total ineptness in pvp.   So, they all started getting on his case once in Ogrimarr.  Well, what happened next is pure hillarity.  For background, we're horribly, horribly equipped players.  Him maybe a bit more than myself. 

Well, they started tossing down the duel flags.  He beat every single one of them.  Usually in under 30 seconds.  Here are people rolling around in all blue/purple gear getting roasted by a guy that was still using a Force of the Hippogriff as a main hand weapon and had most of it's gear with level reqs barely over 40.   Their GM was talking the most shit and he probably went down in 10 seconds flat. 

I think player skill is going to matter a lot.  But when the majority lack player skill, the equipment sure is going to help.  Some shitty rogue gets a lot better if he's rolling around with a Deathstriker/Alcor Sunrazor combination.  Some unskilled goon is going to have a chance to wack a talented player if they're rolling around in Molten Core set armor wielding an Ironfoe.  I mean, hell, someone in all upper level raid instance gear is just fucking crazy with the stats.  The true difference might be the stam and int off this stuff. 

I just hope, and I've heard this, that the pvp battleground will have some sort of point buy system for comparable gear.  I've seen muds do it and it has a good effect in lessoning the equipment gap between the uber and non.

[El Gallo]

If you have the patience to deal with arcanite, you can get some nice things made (at least as a warrior, not so sure about other classes).  You can't get a lot of the best recipes, but I bet you could get a crafter to make things for materials + a small fee.  The arcanite reaper, for example, is an awesome weapon for a PvP warrior.  Arcanite is tedious as hell to get in large quantities, however.

[Rasix]

Luckily one of the best backstab/ambush daggers available for a rogue is in BRD but soloable at 60 (you can sneak to him and get him solo).  Offhand, I know people keep mentioning this, but.. how do you "reset" an instance?

Ugg, arcanite.  Getting arcane crystals is a pain, nevermind if you don't have someone that's willing to transmute for you.

[Threash]

Luckily one of the best backstab/ambush daggers available for a rogue is in BRD but soloable at 60 (you can sneak to him and get him solo).  Offhand, I know people keep mentioning this, but.. how do you "reset" an instance?

Ugg, arcanite.  Getting arcane crystals is a pain, nevermind if you don't have someone that's willing to transmute for you.

Invite someone into your group, zone into instance, do your thing, zone out, make other person group leader, disband from group, reinvite same person into your group, zone back in to reset instance.  Changing group leaders always resets an intance also.

Edit:  Bring a partner unless you are a walking bad ass, that guy is not nearly as easy to solo as people make him out to be.  If you have to solo bring healing potions and shadow protection potions.

[WayAbvPar]

I have heard that if you enter an instance with a new group leader, it is reset. You can enter it solo, do you evil deeds, exit, have a buddy /invite you from across the world, and then enter again to a reset. Haven't tried it yet, so grain of salt and all that.

Edit- yeah, what Threash said.

[MrHat]

It's going to be a difference.  I'm just not sure how huge. 

For reference, a friend of mine (that just quit) had a "beef" with the uber guild on this server.  He basically was one of the few people that actually would question their "uberness" and pointed out the ridiculousness of some of their strategies, their dumb as hell policies, and their total ineptness in pvp.   So, they all started getting on his case once in Ogrimarr.  Well, what happened next is pure hillarity.  For background, we're horribly, horribly equipped players.  Him maybe a bit more than myself. 

Well, they started tossing down the duel flags.  He beat every single one of them.  Usually in under 30 seconds.  Here are people rolling around in all blue/purple gear getting roasted by a guy that was still using a Force of the Hippogriff as a main hand weapon and had most of it's gear with level reqs barely over 40.   Their GM was talking the most shit and he probably went down in 10 seconds flat. 

I think player skill is going to matter a lot.  But when the majority lack player skill, the equipment sure is going to help.  Some shitty rogue gets a lot better if he's rolling around with a Deathstriker/Alcor Sunrazor combination.  Some unskilled goon is going to have a chance to wack a talented player if they're rolling around in Molten Core set armor wielding an Ironfoe.  I mean, hell, someone in all upper level raid instance gear is just fucking crazy with the stats.  The true difference might be the stam and int off this stuff. 

I just hope, and I've heard this, that the pvp battleground will have some sort of point buy system for comparable gear.  I've seen muds do it and it has a good effect in lessoning the equipment gap between the uber and non.

I can second this.  Being a 60 rogue myself with not so great gear, I've easily beat everyone I've challenged.  The equipment gap may be bigger for classes that can't dump 2k damage in 2 seconds regardless, but I don't think it's that big a difference anyways.

I have heard the same thing about Battlegrounds.  I bet you need a sick amount of kills though.

[Kageru]

Hm. PvP is highly skill dependant because the forces are reasonably balanced and there's lots of maneuvering. So skill can overcome gear. However in the higher end instances the mobs are not at all impressed by "jousting", have HP well in excess of a player and can hit like trucks. I know I'm still smarting over a 2.2K mortal strike from rend dropping me almost instantly. So in those environments you need skill and gear.

The instances are the best I've seen in a MMORPG. They really make it obvious how dull and cookie cutter the design in EQ was. Some of the early EQ zones (Guk, Blackburrow, Seb) were never matched by EQ after, but WoW blows them away. That said it's absolutely true that they mark a distinct change from the 1-60 levels, and they clearly weren't actually finished on release. However, if I read their intention, the continuation for the time starved / soloist players is either PvP or questing (well, grinding, these quests will be very time consuming but not continuous) towards hero classes. Hero classes including suits of gear. And of course neither of these really exist in the current game nor have anything approaching an ETA.

[Register]

Right now, skill already play a significant part in 1 v 1 dueling, but in 1 v 1 pvp, theres additional skill involved - alertness, reaction speed, ability to use the terrain to your advantage. All which allows the good player with average gear hold his own against the average player in good gear.

A naked priest can kill another player with the best gear possible with the right terrain and abit of surprsie - like mind controlling their opponent off a cliff/into lava. A good warlock can take advantage of their ability to waterbreath by fighting in deeper water, and fearing their opponent when they are desperately surfacing for a breath. A cunning hunter will shoot through aggro mobs at their target, forcing either a wide detour, or a run through aggro in order to chase him/her.

When its group vs group, tactics and cooperation is the next lvl of skill, and I believe that a good team with average gear will easily beat a average team with good gear - by a greater margin than the 1 v 1 example above. A team that works together is force multiplied, while a disorganised group is only as good as 5 solo players attack another team.

[Ironwood]

Right now, skill already play a significant part in 1 v 1 dueling, but in 1 v 1 pvp, theres additional skill involved - alertness, reaction speed, ability to use the terrain to your advantage. All which allows the good player with average gear hold his own against the average player in good gear.

A naked priest can kill another player with the best gear possible with the right terrain and abit of surprsie - like mind controlling their opponent off a cliff/into lava. A good warlock can take advantage of their ability to waterbreath by fighting in deeper water, and fearing their opponent when they are desperately surfacing for a breath. A cunning hunter will shoot through aggro mobs at their target, forcing either a wide detour, or a run through aggro in order to chase him/her.

When its group vs group, tactics and cooperation is the next lvl of skill, and I believe that a good team with average gear will easily beat a average team with good gear - by a greater margin than the 1 v 1 example above. A team that works together is force multiplied, while a disorganised group is only as good as 5 solo players attack another team.

Slick.   Note to self - don't piss anyone off...

[Sky]

(confirming high end WoW is more EQish than the rest of the game)

Well, at least I know when I'll quit. 6 more levels to go. Since I can never hook up with folks from here (in any game, heh), I haven't grouped up since...shit, a defense of the crossroads when I was in my 30s.

But then, my playstyle is invalid and I should be playing single player games 

A cunning hunter will shoot through aggro mobs at their target, forcing either a wide detour, or a run through aggro in order to chase him/her.

100% my line of pvp thinking. The greatest thing about pvp is that you can outsmart the opponent, tough to fool hardcoded AI (or easy depending on how you define the word 'fool'). I was always playing mind tricks on opponents in bf1942.

[Morfiend]

I just hope, and I've heard this, that the pvp battleground will have some sort of point buy system for comparable gear.  I've seen muds do it and it has a good effect in lessoning the equipment gap between the uber and non.

They will be. There are going to be 14 honor ranks I believe. Each rank opens up more gear for sale on the BG vendor. I dont know if I should say any details, but there will also be a very cheap epic speed BG mount also.

[Rasix]

Ooh, looks like I have an in with the local uber guild.  Friend that's quitting played Dark Age with some of their members (plus he's letting me log on his account for free alchemy and transmuting while he's letting it idle, what a guy!).    Now I guess I should go through all of my posts deleting all of the desparaging crap I've said about them incase one of them actually reads the boards.     God, being in an uber guild again (breaking promises to myself is fun!)...  This will be really fucking interesting and probably end very badly.

Morph, thanks for the  good news on the battlerounds. I guess you're in the beta for this or have some nice sources.  Don't get yourself in trouble if you can avoid it. On the subject of mounts, is the epic mount quest for the Horde currently in the game? I don't know a single soul that's completed it.  I've heard it starts in Ungoro, but that's the limit to my knowledge on the subject.

[Righ]

Ravasaur Trainers? Working as intended, they say. The NPCs won't even talk to me at level 60. Even if they did, as with the Winterspring Trainers, who will talk to high level Alliance folks, you'd need the riding skill. That means you'll need to be a Troll for it to be any use.