Patch Notes

[MuffinMan]

I must be crazy, I swear I swapped back and forth between two similar DPS weapons and there was a marked difference in the damage displayed on the character sheet. The only difference between them was the attack speed buff.

[Amaron]

I must be crazy, I swear I swapped back and forth between two similar DPS weapons and there was a marked difference in the damage displayed on the character sheet. The only difference between them was the attack speed buff.

Did you have +damage rings/amulets?  Or maybe a passive that changes based on weapon type?

[MuffinMan]

Ah, so it's the +DMG rings messing with it. Didn't even think of that. I assumed two weapons with the same DPS would see the same increase but the +DMG on other inventory slots makes the faster weapon more bang for your buck?

[Merusk]

Yes.

[Llyse]

So with these upcoming nerfs, will the market behave as blizzard expects and the perceived market value of IAS will drop?

Or will the rational logic of multiplicative stacking mean getting whatever IAS you can get your hands on more important?

(I'm asking as a poverty stricken monk who is about to gamble piddling inferno savings into the IAS market for the first time) 

[Typhon]

More ilvl 63 items dropping mean more competition in the market, which should equate to lower prices.

Here's my take (tossing this out there to see if someone who actually done some number crunching has a different take/can tell me where I'm flawed in my thinking)

The important DPS stats:
Tier 1: IAS, +Dam, +%Dam
Comment - with nothing to replace it, Blizz nerfing IAS is just a nerf, it's not going to drive players to look for something else, because there isn't anything else.  Said another way, a 1000 DPS weapon with 1.2 aps isn't as good as a 1000DPS weapon with 1.8 aps

Tier 2: +Crit Chance %, Str/Int/Dev, +Crit Chance Damage
Comment: I think there are some class builds that might be able to make a go of a crit build, I just haven't seen enough items with high enough crit chance to get you to something like 60% crit chance (but I haven't really looked) - that said, a crit build will benefit greatly from IAS do to you rolling the dice that much more often.  So again, IAS is still very attractive.

The important defensive stats:
Tier 1: Resist All (Resist X for monks),
Tier 2: Vit, +%Life, life on hit
Tier 3: Armor, Str, Int, Reduce duration of control effects
Tier 4: Dex, Life steal, Life from Globes, Life after Kill, Life regen

Comment: the highest life regen i've seen on non-chest armor is 300ish/sec (chest is 500ish).  There are 8 pieces of armor you can wear, yielding a peak life/second of 2600life/second - for a char with 30k health that 11 seconds to return to full health.  Given you need movement speed boots, and every piece of armor to have resist all and some form of life (vit/+%life), lets say a more reasonable number is 1800 life/second - char with 30k health needs to stop taking damage for 16 seconds to return to full health.  Seems viable for a DH/Wiz, especially since their playstyle is already "run like mad chicken", probably health regen should be boosted to a higher tier for DH/Wiz.

The important utility stats:
Tier 1: Movement speed, magic find, gold find

What I miss?

[01101010]

More ilvl 63 items dropping mean more competition in the market, which should equate to lower prices.

Here's my take (tossing this out there to see if someone who actually done some number crunching has a different take/can tell me where I'm flawed in my thinking)

The important DPS stats:
Tier 1: IAS, +Dam, +%Dam
Comment - with nothing to replace it, Blizz nerfing IAS is just a nerf, it's not going to drive players to look for something else, because there isn't anything else.  Said another way, a 1000 DPS weapon with 1.2 aps isn't as good as a 1000DPS weapon with 1.8 aps

Tier 2: +Crit Chance %, Str/Int/Dev, +Crit Chance Damage
Comment: I think there are some class builds that might be able to make a go of a crit build, I just haven't seen enough items with high enough crit chance to get you to something like 60% crit chance (but I haven't really looked) - that said, a crit build will benefit greatly from IAS do to you rolling the dice that much more often.  So again, IAS is still very attractive.

The important defensive stats:
Tier 1: Resist All (Resist X for monks),
Tier 2: Vit, +%Life, life on hit
Tier 3: Armor, Str, Int, Reduce duration of control effects
Tier 4: Dex, Life steal, Life from Globes, Life after Kill, Life regen

Comment: the highest life regen i've seen on non-chest armor is 300ish/sec (chest is 500ish).  There are 8 pieces of armor you can wear, yielding a peak life/second of 2600life/second - for a char with 30k health that 11 seconds to return to full health.  Given you need movement speed boots, and every piece of armor to have resist all and some form of life (vit/+%life), lets say a more reasonable number is 1800 life/second - char with 30k health needs to stop taking damage for 16 seconds to return to full health.  Seems viable for a DH/Wiz, especially since their playstyle is already "run like mad chicken", probably health regen should be boosted to a higher tier for DH/Wiz.

The important utility stats:
Tier 1: Movement speed, magic find, gold find

What I miss?

I love the way you start the post with a hilarious icebreaker. Jokes are a great way to get people into it. Once the prices on items are set and inflated, it will take FOREVER for those prices to come down. I think the AH should take a 5% fee for posting (at least on the GAH). As it stands now, people just continue to re-post items at the same prices for the really really good shit - which I figure those hugely inflated prices are set by goldfarmers. 90million gold for a top of the line rare 1h melee weapon might be an outlier, but it sets the tone.

As for the rest... seems reasonable. Still have a huge divide in melee stat choices versus ranged choices, as it stands now.

[Amaron]

So with these upcoming nerfs, will the market behave as blizzard expects and the perceived market value of IAS will drop?

I expect the difficulty changes will have far more impact on it than anything.  It's hard to predict until we see the new damage.

As it stands now, people just continue to re-post items at the same prices for the really really good shit - which I figure those hugely inflated prices are set by goldfarmers. 90million gold for a top of the line rare 1h melee weapon might be an outlier, but it sets the tone.

I actually don't know as I agree that it's been inflated.    Prices haven't gone up on my gear for weeks.  I have to think that means excess gold is really being sucked up by people crafting gloves.

In practical terms you could say those top end melee weapons really are so rare that they're worth enough gold to roll 1000 6 property gloves.

[Amaron]

Blah double post.

[calapine]

What is this buisness about crafting gloves?

[Arinon]

It's one of the better slots to get a return on because the current crop of Legendary/Set gloves is weak and glove slot can get a lot of nice mods.  Still money to be made in other slots though if you can't put up the 20m+ for the 6-slot glove patern.  I'd go shoulder or maybe chest if that's too rich for your blood  Seems people are paying nice cash for crappy stats and 18+ MF right now.  Pretty sure the glove market will be flooded shortly anyway.

[Phred]

I'd rather they just leave IAS alone save for it's effect on casting animation and fix classes first. The whole 'we want to provide choice.....after you spend shitloads of gold or $$ on items' isn't holding up as far as retention as many hit the brick wall in inferno and quit.

I'm just curious where you thought retention fit in Blizzard's plans? Sure as shit all the people who raced to inferno would buy any expansion anyway so how does it economically benefit Blizzard to have them stick around loading up the servers and the AH?

[Malakili]

I'd rather they just leave IAS alone save for it's effect on casting animation and fix classes first. The whole 'we want to provide choice.....after you spend shitloads of gold or $$ on items' isn't holding up as far as retention as many hit the brick wall in inferno and quit.

I'm just curious where you thought retention fit in Blizzard's plans? Sure as shit all the people who raced to inferno would buy any expansion anyway so how does it economically benefit Blizzard to have them stick around loading up the servers and the AH?

Depends on whether or not they feel enticed to use the RMAH really.

[Segoris]

I'm just curious where you thought retention fit in Blizzard's plans? Sure as shit all the people who raced to inferno would buy any expansion anyway so how does it economically benefit Blizzard to have them stick around loading up the servers and the AH?

I'd think retention is good since that keeps people's friend's lists full and playing with more friends, which for most is usually more fun. The more fun people are having, the more they stay around. The more they stay around, the more transactions go on (doesn't matter if people are the buyer or seller as long as the number of transactions stays high so bliz makes their fees)

And no, it's not sure as shit that people who raced will be buying the expansion. Not after being disappointed this badly. Yes, many of the whiners will still be there, but keeping a majority of player base with an increasing usage of the RMAH AND having them buy an expansion is better for them than a couple catasses buying the expansion without having people to sell shit to. Also, aren't server costs generally somewhat low?

[Amaron]

What is this buisness about crafting gloves?

6 property gloves can have:

+crit chance
+crit damage
+attack speed
+really high stats
+good resists

The value will possibly drop some with the attack speed nerf but Demon Hunters are almost as fanatical about crit/crit damage.

[Xanthippe]

Apparently today is 1.0.3 patch day. Blizzard has not yet put the patch notes up, but these are supposedly the patch notes:

http://www.diablofans.com/blizz-tracker/topic/227302-patch-103-now-live/

[Xanthippe]

"Attack Speed bonus values on weapons and armor have been reduced by 50%"

"Magic Find will no longer be considered when looting objects in the environment such as chests, barrels, vases, pots, and corpses"

"Crowd Control Reduction from items and skills will now reduce the percentage value of Slow, Chill, and Attack Speed debuffs rather than reducing how long the debuff lasts
    For example: previously, if you were debuffed by a 60% slow that lasted for 2 seconds while wearing gear that provides 20% Crowd Control Reduction, your movement speed would be reduced by 60%, but only for 1.6 seconds. Now, the same amount of Crowd Control Reduction will reduce the Slow effect to 48%, but the effect will remain for the full 2 second duration."




Yikes. There will be much complaining.

[Ironwood]

They have no idea what the customer base is here, do they ?

[Shatter]

w...t...f

[Xanthippe]

Just remember, they know how to play the game the right way. The players must conform.

[Paelos]

They have no idea what the customer base is here, do they ?

Actually I think they do, and I like the change. People were fighting into areas where they'd have chests, switching gear, and then looting the chests. That's the kind of stupid farmer bullshit you get that has nothing to do with the actual game. It's the same crap you saw with people farming vases in Inferno Royal Crypts.

[Paelos]

Just remember, they know how to play the game the right way. The players must conform.

I don't think you would consider farming chests and gear switching to be playing the game, though.

[01101010]

"Magic Find will no longer be considered when looting objects in the environment such as chests, barrels, vases, pots, and corpses"

Umm... Really?  

 I am hoping they up the drop rate on those objects then or else there will be no point in checking anything beyond resplendent chest if that. Lots of tree stumps and dead bodies just became completely irrelevant.

edit: spoiler tag misclick...

[Xanthippe]

I think the whole pots/vases/containers thing is an inelegant solution to a problem that ought to have been anticipated (botting).

(I was referring more to some of the other changes, like the wholesale 50% reduction on IAS gear effectiveness.)

[Ironwood]

 People were fighting into areas where they'd have chests, switching gear, and then looting the chests.

And ?  What the fuck is it to you ?

 

[Paelos]

Dead bodies and stumps and the like are still a great source of gold. I don't see this changing that. I do believe they will up the rates on chests to compensate.

As for the IAS thing, I happen to agree with that change as well. I'm more in favor of stats that shift with your builds. If one stat is too powerful, and becomes something that must be on an item to have it retain value across all classes, that's bad. Similarly, I'd like to see a shift in weaponry beyond just "MOAR DPS = WIN." That will probably require some math tinkering with the Str/Dex/Int modifiers, as I think they are currently not providing enough bang for the buck.

[Paelos]

And ?  What the fuck is it to you ?

In a single player game, nothing. In this game? Everything. With the inclusion of the AH and RMAH, we (unfortunately or fortunately) have to look at item inputs globally. Too many items in the system cheese the game and make it ridiculous.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I would bet on them re-upping the drop rates for objects in the game.  They just swung a big hammer to avoid botting and farming vases, their ultimate solution is to just have magic/goldfind stop working on them. Now that this change is in, rates for drops in them will likely go back to where they were.

[Xanthippe]

Dead bodies and stumps and the like are still a great source of gold. I don't see this changing that. I do believe they will up the rates on chests to compensate.

As for the IAS thing, I happen to agree with that change as well. I'm more in favor of stats that shift with your builds. If one stat is too powerful, and becomes something that must be on an item to have it retain value across all classes, that's bad. Similarly, I'd like to see a shift in weaponry beyond just "MOAR DPS = WIN." That will probably require some math tinkering with the Str/Dex/Int modifiers, as I think they are currently not providing enough bang for the buck.

There is nothing to indicate they are upping the rate of gold on chests to compensate for no longer dropping items on containers. (I found my first legendary in a stump, and my first plans from a log). They ought to up the rate of gold in order to compensate, but perhaps they ought to have done that this patch since they removed items this patch.

The IAS thing they ought to have seen in beta and adjusted accordingly, not launched the game with such a huge change. (I say this as a person who has put my 60s in ice until this patch knowing changes are coming and wanting to wait to buy armor until after the changes).

A lot of these changes ought to have been anticipated as being necessary before launch. I'm fairly surprised as to the incompetence and arrogance of Blizzard.

(re Gold Find and containers - I believe gold find only ever affected monster drops, not containers - at least that's how I read the tool tip.)

[calapine]

Dead bodies and stumps and the like are still a great source of gold. I don't see this changing that.

• Destructible objects no longer have a chance to drop items, and will only have a small chance to drop gold when destroyed.
• Weapon racks will no longer drop weapons 100% of the time.

[Paelos]

A lot of these changes ought to have been anticipated as being necessary before launch. I'm fairly surprised as to the incompetence and arrogance of Blizzard.

That's an expectations gap, though. I don't think the IAS thing is that obvious, as I had no idea what it was until a week ago. As far as farming vases, I probably wouldn't have thought of that myself before the game started. It's an exploitation issue v. a gameplay issue. I think you're always going to be battling those post-launch because you simply can't anticipate which areas of your game the players are going to goldrape.

[calapine]

Also, what is this:

Zoltun Kulle will now enrage in Inferno difficulty after 3 minutes, using his Ceiling Collapse ability more often and for much higher damage
Belial will now enrage in Inferno difficulty after 3 minutes in his final phase, increasing the number of green pools dropped across the entire encounter platform
In Inferno difficulty, Rakanoth will now become much more aggressive after 3 minutes
Now enrages after 4 minutes

3 minutes. Really Blizzard?! I thought enrage timers are an anti-cheese mechanic, not punishment for people with who have low-dps/high survabilty builds or are undergeared.

[Paelos]

The enrage timers are complete horseshit. We are in total agreement there. It was my fear when I originally hear of them, and son of a bitch if it didn't come true within a month.

[calapine]

That's an expectations gap, though. I don't think the IAS thing is that obvious, as I had no idea what it was until a week ago. As far as farming vases, I probably wouldn't have thought of that myself before the game started. It's an exploitation issue v. a gameplay issue. I think you're always going to be battling those post-launch because you simply can't anticipate which areas of your game the players are going to goldrape.

I have to side with Xanthippe here. How can a designer be suprised by the effect IAS has? "Yeah, we created it but who could know it would increase DPS so much! If we only had more time testing"

Also, a Blizzard MMO-type game has gold farmers. Again...how could they have known?!

[Xanthippe]

So what _is_ the purpose of an enrage timer then? To punish people without sufficient damage output? And they nerfed one of the more effective damage modifiers in the same patch.

It's as if they purposely launched a game with an incomplete understanding of the mechanics involved in playing it, relying upon the players to find those mechanics for them, so they can make the game more difficult a month after the launch.


Paelos, wrt bots - that they didn't anticipate farmers botting is beyond comprehension. Farmers bot every game that has any sort of real money aspect to it. Adding a RMAH probably makes the problem worse, not better. If some player wants to farm vases, I really don't care. It's not something I would do because I can barely stand farming of any kind. If some player wants to create a bot to do it for them, I do care. Rather than reducing the amount of gold in containers, why not just add some mobs in there instead? Their solutions are overkill.