Complaints, gripes, kvetches...

[Outlawedprod]

This guy's enchantress is better geared than your wizard.  So Blizzard will probably nerf companion dps by 50% in the next maintenance window.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLykMdRRkZ8

[Yegolev]

Want to play, can't.

[ezrast]

Off-topic, but I cracked up when I read this in Path of Exile's dev diary:

Action RPGs typically have three difficulty levels. The player plays through the game several times using the same character, with the challenge ramping up each time. Right back at the start of the project, we thought it would be a great idea to add a fourth difficulty level that was really challenging so that players would have something to aim to beat.

When we tested this, we found that players reacted really badly to a sudden brick wall of difficult content that they were unable to progress in. We tried changing it to a steady ramp of difficulty, but then players found isolated areas where the monster AI was more abusable and farmed those with specific builds to get rewards with little risk.

It's amazing what you can learn when you actually test things and listen to player feedback!

[Mrbloodworth]

Jesus, that map feature is awesome!

[Arinon]

When we tested this, we found that players reacted really badly to a sudden brick wall of difficult content that they were unable to progress in.

The modern gaming audience disappoints me.  Here you have this game, you've gone through all the story content three times and have presumably unlocked all the tactical options, but get you upset at a fourth time being potentially too hard to finish?

Is the need to plant some flag at "The End" of a game so great that we can't have super hard content anymore?  I'm not sure where a gamer goes now to get never-ending difficulty short of inventing handicaps or digging up old games meant to be played rather than beaten.  Probably PvP.

[Malakili]

Probably PvP.

Yep. There is a reason I keep going back to Starcraft 2.

[Jeff Kelly]

Look some people need their games to be hard, to offer them brick walls and challenges that they spend months on and that's OK.

Many more just stop and move on to something different and that's by no means a new thing.

If I could do a survey about some of the hardest games for every generation of consoles or computers, I'm pretty certain that the fans of the hardest difficulty levels and hardcore modes would be in the minority.

[Ingmar]

Look some people need their games to be hard, to offer them brick walls and challenges that they spend months on and that's OK.

Many more just stop and move on to something different and that's by no means a new thing.

If I could do a survey about some of the hardest games for every generation of consoles or computers, I'm pretty certain that the fans of the hardest difficulty levels and hardcore modes would be in the minority.

The issue is not that people want different things; the thing that makes no sense to me - as someone who doesn't especially want that 4th difficulty - is why other people in my category can't be happy with finishing the 3rd and move on with their lives. The very existence of something not meant for them (that isn't any different in terms of content or story, so it isn't like they're missing out on something!) makes them unhappy, and they fill forum after forum with their whining. I just don't understand this point of view at all.

[Malakili]

Look some people need their games to be hard, to offer them brick walls and challenges that they spend months on and that's OK.

Many more just stop and move on to something different and that's by no means a new thing.

If I could do a survey about some of the hardest games for every generation of consoles or computers, I'm pretty certain that the fans of the hardest difficulty levels and hardcore modes would be in the minority.

The issue is not that people want different things; the thing that makes no sense to me - as someone who doesn't especially want that 4th difficulty - is why other people in my category can't be happy with finishing the 3rd and move on with their lives. The very existence of something not meant for them (that isn't any different in terms of content or story, so it isn't like they're missing out on something!) makes them unhappy, and they fill forum after forum with their whining. I just don't understand this point of view at all.

 

[ezrast]

The "end of the game" is irrelevant. An ARPG character is an investment of time, and unlike a traditional RPG you're not in it for the story. We just want to keep playing our characters, and if all of the content is either trivial or impossible we can't do that. People would still be complaining if Inferno and 61+ items didn't exist at all, because their favorite characters would be all dressed up with nowhere to go.

edit to add: if the problem were that people just couldn't stand not completing the hardest content in the game, the QQ would all be from hardcore players. It's not.

[Mrbloodworth]

The issue is not that people want different things; the thing that makes no sense to me - as someone who doesn't especially want that 4th difficulty - is why other people in my category can't be happy with finishing the 3rd and move on with their lives. The very existence of something not meant for them (that isn't any different in terms of content or story, so it isn't like they're missing out on something!) makes them unhappy, and they fill forum after forum with their whining. I just don't understand this point of view at all.

Did you read what they wrote?

When we tested this, we found that players reacted really badly to a sudden brick wall of difficult content that they were unable to progress in. We tried changing it to a steady ramp of difficulty, but then players found isolated areas where the monster AI was more abusable and farmed those with specific builds to get rewards with little risk.

It also looses context, when you leave out the solution they came up with.

When trying to solve this, we realised that the fourth difficulty level was only necessary until we added Act Three, at which point we’d reduce it back to three difficulty levels so that we’re not forcing the player to play through the same static content four times back-to-back. Our temporary solution, a month or so before entering Closed Beta last year, was to introduce the Maelstrom of Chaos areas. These were a sequence of random areas (using tilesets from all over the game) with completely random monster packs. Players gained access to it when they finished the final difficulty and could play through a series of levels that gradually ramped in difficulty.

The Maelstrom helped the situation, but players would still travel to areas that were too hard for them and complain that they weren’t able to kill monsters. We eventually flattened all the Maelstrom areas to be the same level, just ramping in density of bosses. By that time we had decided we needed a new, better mechanic for access to end-game areas. Maps will replace the Maelstrom in 0.9.11.

Variable Difficulty

An expected consequence of the amount of customisation that Path of Exile offers is that characters can differ in power by large amounts. Players abusing whatever the current broken skill is with a clever synergistic passive build, godly rare items and high-quality Skill Gems are able to handle triple the challenge of other players.

Our end-game has to cater to both groups of players. Both regular and power players need to be challenged in different ways, so that they feel the need to continue to improve their characters. Our Map system allows players to pick the difficulty that they encounter. As you’ve seen in this article, players can create and obtain harder versions of Maps that offer more challenges and more rewards.

This, is how you should develop games. With maps, everyone wins. It helps if you read the whole article, that clearly goes through the genesis of the idea, problem, and solution.

[Ingmar]

I don't give 2 shits about PoE, I was addressing the D3 side of the discussion.

[Mrbloodworth]

I don't give 2 shits about PoE, I was addressing the D3 side of the discussion.

 

Vacuums are great!

[Ingmar]

Our end-game has to cater to both groups of players.

Just for you, this is where they're wrong. The end-game doesn't have to cater to everyone, especially when you're talking about a game like an ARPG where there's pretty much only one kind of gameplay. (And there's no sub fee to justify.)

[Mrbloodworth]

It does when the revenue and balance for the game is based around the RMAH! 

Got'a keep'em playin.

I suppose, if you want to keep the game only for the cool kids, keep the wall. "Not for You" is a player concept, not one that's used by good developers.

[Ingmar]

But you're missing literally nothing by not playing Inferno. Literally. Nothing. It is the same monsters, same areas, mostly even the same loot. This is what I mean by not understanding your point of view. Inferno is not for me, and that is OK.

[Mrbloodworth]

And in POE, its not, and you get to pick the difficulty continuing to play. But we are talking about D3, a game made in a vacuum around an Auction hall.

Obviously, the solution to any difficulty walls would be, go visit the auction hall. Boy, that's a great design point right there. Reminds me of something....

[Malakili]

And in POE, its not, and you get to pick the difficulty continuing to play. But we are talking about D3, a game made in a vacuum around an Auction hall.

Obviously, the solution to any difficulty walls would be, go visit the auction hall. Boy, that's a great design point right there. Reminds me of something....

That has nothing to do at all with the discussion.  That is a drop rate issue and has literally nothing to do with difficulty.  In Diablo 3 you also get to pick the difficulty of continuing play - it is called doing the content you can complete.  Farming Act 1 Inferno is not particularly different from farming "Whatever Difficulty Maps" to my mind.  This is the real issue for me here.  I'm fine with maps that spawn a random tileset with a difficulty of your choice - fine addition to vary things up or whatever, but I don't see how it is meaningfully different form just redoing content if you are concerned about having things to do in the "end game."  If I like doing Act 2 inferno, and Ingmar likes doing Act 4 Hell, and Bloodworth likes doing WhateverTerminologyPoEUses Difficulty Maps - what is *really* the difference there?  People are still going to complain there are maps they can't complete or acts they can't complete and it is those people who are the problem regardless of the way the developers choose to respond.

[Abelian75]

This is just a little aside, but I just realized that the only times I've actually been driven to purchase AH gear is when I am unable to kill treasure goblins (when completely untroubled by other monsters).  I'm not sure if they are intended as a gear check, but they definitely feel like the most explicit "if you can't kill me, you are severely undergeared" message to me.  Blizzard's made some comments about how people are using gear more powerful than expected for lower level inferno acts, but to me, nothing communicates expected level of gear more than the treasure goblins, and right now, they are definitely telling me i need to use the AH.

[Rokal]

But you're missing literally nothing by not playing Inferno. Literally. Nothing. It is the same monsters, same areas, mostly even the same loot. This is what I mean by not understanding your point of view. Inferno is not for me, and that is OK.

It's not the same loot at all. It's the only place set items exist, and it's where most of the uniques are found. The most appealing loot hooks in the game are only in Inferno.

Jesus, that map feature is awesome!

The PoE map system does sound brilliant. Reading the dev diary about the feature basically sold me on the game. Some other dated aspects of the game, such as potion chugging, are a good reminder about the positive innovations from D3 though.

[Ingmar]

But you're missing literally nothing by not playing Inferno. Literally. Nothing. It is the same monsters, same areas, mostly even the same loot. This is what I mean by not understanding your point of view. Inferno is not for me, and that is OK.

It's not the same loot at all. It's the only place set items exist, and it's where most of the uniques are found. The most appealing loot hooks in the game are only in Inferno.

One of these is literally true and one is not:

"mostly even the same loot"
"not the same loot at all"

Hint: 95%+ of the things that drop in Inferno, drop in Hell.

Yes, you have a tiny chance at some set items, recipes, whatever. For the most part those are only relevant if you have some sort of need to play through Inferno anyway. So yay, Inferno drops things for Inferno players. That changes nothing at all about my point.

[Mrbloodworth]

Some other dated aspects of the game, such as potion chugging,

http://www.pathofexile.com/news/2011-03-21/dev-diary-flasks

[Lakov_Sanite]

So how many posts has BW made jerking it to POE thus far?

[ezrast]

To be honest, the main difference to me is that PoE's endgame is a lot more random than Diablo's. That's really it. It's slightly more interesting and alleviates the brick wall issue (because you're never forced to go through any one particular boss).

Some other dated aspects of the game, such as potion chugging, are a good reminder about the positive innovations from D3 though.

PoE's potions are its best innovation. Not hyperbole. Health globes feel really clumsy to me personally.

So how many posts has BW made jerking it to POE thus far?

Not enough, apparently. The lukewarm response to the game here is really baffling to me.

[Ingmar]

Probably because 1) it is fugly, 2) most of us (I'm guessing) have been disappointed on some level by every ARPG that isn't called Diablo 2 so we can't trust anymore, and 3) MrB is championing it and he has a decades-long history of championing terrible indie games. He's the boy who cried Wurm. 

[Abelian75]

Not enough, apparently. The lukewarm response to the game here is really baffling to me.

I'm gonna be brutally honest here.  The game looks like crap.  Not mechanically, but visually.  I'm totally not normally a graphics whore, but in an ARPG, man, you really gotta look and feel good.  And that game, from what I've seen, just does not look good.  They went for a realistic look on what I assume is a pretty low budget.  That seems like a bad move to me.  I really don't get off on insulting games, and I feel kind of bad about saying that, but this is honestly in the "so bad that I reflexively say 'ugh' when I look at a screenshot" category.

[Mrbloodworth]

So how many posts has BW made jerking it to POE thus far?

I'm really not trying to. However, when discussing games, contemporary games do come up. When I picked up D3 one of the first things I said was it feels like its stuck in a vacuum. It IS stuck in a vacuum.

Whats amazing to me, is a group of 20 over 5 years has made a more forward thinking game that truly progresses this game type. But it doesn't say blizzard on it, and it didn't take 10 years to develop just to land right back into the issues its always had. The only innovations here are single player lag, and turning your player base into Chinese gold farmers.

Its not even F2P, its double dip.

[Miasma]

I stopped playing PoE ten minutes into it because there was no out of combat health regeneration.  I'm not drinking a God damn potion after every fight.

I imagine at minute fifteen or so I would have been given some gear or ability with regen but there are too many other sources of entertainment to bother with five extra minutes of suck.

[Mrbloodworth]

I stopped playing PoE ten minutes into it because there was no out of combat health regeneration.  

But there is. Its part of the gear customization system and flasks and passive skill tree.

[ezrast]

They refill when you kill things! It's brilliant! Brilliant I tell you!!!

(and yeah, game is pretty goddamn brown but it's not so bad once you get playing)

[Arinon]

And in POE, its not, and you get to pick the difficulty continuing to play. But we are talking about D3, a game made in a vacuum around an Auction hall.

Obviously, the solution to any difficulty walls would be, go visit the auction hall. Boy, that's a great design point right there. Reminds me of something....

Tailoring difficulty to players is fan-fucking-tastic.  It has nothing to do with the issue other than the fact that my difficulty of choice (ball breaking) rarely makes it into games.  Not because it's hard/expensive to implement but because it's mere existence offends so many people.  It's particularly egregious here though because, as Ingmar points out, all they really did is add zeroes to some of the numbers.  Even with that we still have all this venom for Inferno.

[Mrbloodworth]

Jeff Kelly already covered that, and POE solved it in a rather elegant way, complete with ball breaking.

Enjoy:

Vacuum. You can ether ignore those players, and tell them "Not for you", or accept that at some point, its just not fun, and address it.

You pick what would be best for your RMAH.

[Job601]

Not enough, apparently. The lukewarm response to the game here is really baffling to me.

What's baffling to me is that anyone who played the PoE beta can think it's in any way competitive with either Diablo 3 or Torchlight.  The game's animations and skills just look and feel bad, the maps are so big and meandering that they all feel like Act 3 from Diablo 2, and the absurd passive skill tree will be fun for people who like copying builds off the internet and confusing to everybody else.  What's even worse is that the most innovative system, the skill gems, caters to players who like going through boredom and frustration before they get to play with their toys.  The skills are also very poorly balanced, at least the last time I played, although maybe people like that.  These are all areas in which Diablo 3 excels and they don't have anything to do with designing around the RMAH.

[Rokal]

PoE has a long way to go visually, so I can sympathize with those who say looks turned them off. The animations in particular look bad. I wasn't on-board until I read about some of their features that seemed genuinely innovative. It's still beta (and with lots of work left to implement, including another act) so I'm willing to wait and see how it turns out. Given that it will be F2P there's really nothing to lose.

Hint: 95%+ of the things that drop in Inferno, drop in Hell.

Yes, some (non-63) Inferno drops have a very very small chance to drop in Act 3 and 4 hell. I guess if people want to collect sets or uniques like they did in D2, but don't want to do the monotonous grind that is Inferno, they can just grind the 30 minute Act 4 for 200 hours.  

[Ingmar]

"Drops aren't like D2" is a different complaint than "Inferno is too hard/content that doesn't cater specifically to me".