Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread [Spoiler tag free, beware]

[Jeff Kelly]

That it's also a testament to how great the game was up to the end that people actually show grief and bewilderment and need to vent their frustration is the irony here.

If the games weren't any good people would shake their heads and move on. Instead they simply want the end to be as great as the parts leading up to it now that they haven't gotten that they don't have closure and they'll need time to get over that.

A few years from now this will be a text book example though about how badly crappy PR, unchecked executives talking without thinking first and mismanaged expectations can backfire.

[Riggswolfe]

I got this from the forums and it is a perfect send up of the endings.

March 15, 2012 (Associated Press)

 Skywalker Ranch- Lucasfilm today released an archive of
storyboards and scripts revealing that George Lucas originally intended for
Return of the Jedi to conclude the Star Wars saga in a rather unconventional
fashion.  The original draft,
believed to have been penned by Lucas himself, called for the Emperor to reveal
himself as an incorporeal being composed of pure force energy.  The Dark Side, the ghostly Emperor
would explain, is in fact far stronger than the light and that Luke and the
Rebel Alliance were doomed in their attempt to defeat the Empire through
conventional means.  Luke would be
presented with a horrible non-choice between destroying the force entirely in
order to end the Sith, joining as the Emperor’s apprentice in a desperate
attempt to control the evil forces of the galaxy, or merging both sides of the
force together and creating a new and unexplained “synthesis.”



 
“Obviously, it took a lot of work to get Lucas to back off
his ending,” said one film executive involved in the production who asked to
remain nameless so he could candidly discuss the process.  “Lucas had this idea that he wanted to
keep the universe open to speculation and give the audience only the barest
minimum information on these endings,” the executive continued.  “We had to explain to him that Star
Wars was always about the classic hero, the dashing rogue, the damsel in
distress, etc.  Suddenly going all
open ended and open to interpretation at the end was just too much, even for a
movie with force ghosts.” 



 
Other parts of the original ending appeared to have been
quickly scrapped as the script went through basic edits.  One storyboard had the Millennium
Falcon desperately trying to outrun the wave of energy unleashed by Luke before
crash landing in the Dagobah system.
One editor scrawled in the margins “Why are Han and Leia on the
Falcon?  When did Lando break his
attack run and get them off Endor?”




 

When reached for comment, Lucas stood by his original
version of the ending, saying he wanted to leave his fans with something truly
memorable “instead of something simplistic like just destroying the Death Star
again.”  Lucas said further that he
“always thought the ending we eventually used for Jedi was just too
conventional, too much like a normal movie.” 

 

Lucas concluded “I think that had we implemented the
original ending, Return of the Jedi would be well remembered as sparking the same kind of
impassioned fan discussions to this day that Mitocholreans do.”   

     

[Margalis]

I guess I just don't understand why you (and many many others) can give them 100% of the blame for the bad ending and then seemingly zero credit for the good parts.

I once ate a delicious hotdog that gave me food poisoning. I feel pretty comfortable saying that was the worst hot dog I ever ate, not "the best except for the end."

'One night walters scribbled down some thought on various ways the game could end with the line "Lots of speculation for Everyone!" at the bottom of the page.'

This sounds like one of those cases where instead of the writers coming up with an ambiguous ending that has many plausible outcomes (with maybe one that is what the writers intended) instead they come up with nonsense that they don't understand themselves.

[Paelos]

If they change it, they probably fear they're starting a bad precedent. If they don't change it they've got to be aware it is hurting them.

I want to address this point. That may or may not be their logic, but it just jumped out at me as I was reading through the thread.

What would be the precedent here? I believe it would be that you are listening to your customers and owning your mistakes. Let's not forget what Bioware is in the situation. They are an entertainment company. If the customers are this upset, relenting to their overwhelming demands is good business. They aren't policy creators, legislators, judges, or lawyers. They are there to entertain. And when people aren't entertained, they need to fix it. If they choose not to because of hubris, red-tape, or simply the impossibility of action, then they are looking down the barrel of a loaded gun.

EA is at an interesting point financially now, and they are eating some bad press due to this. The 2011 bump they got is now long gone, and they are back to their 2009-2010 doldrum numbers. From the way I look at it, Bioware hasn't actually done them any good as a total company, and now there is serious doubt about both their ME and DA franchises.

[Margalis]

I would also point out that Mass Effect is largely story-driven, so a bad ending sabotages the entire effort much more than in a pure action game.

Bayonetta has a terrible story with awful cutscenes, but I would just tell someone to skip them. You won't miss much and the story isn't the point of the game at all. The bad story only detracts if you let it.

Most people who like Mass Effect like the story and character bits as much or more than the actual gameplay. Really this is very similar to movies that end with "it was all a dream!" It works 1% of the time, the other 99% you just leave the theater pissed off.

[Ratman_tf]

They need to stop sitting on their hands.  They need to stop sending Priestly and Woo out there to damage control by censor.  They need to go to their fans and state that we know your upset, this isn't everything, and we will fix it in the manner that is true to the series so far.  Your choice will return.

That would end this.  This kind of action would in my opinion be lauded for I think most people think it takes courage to admit when your wrong.  I know I would respect the hell out of that kind of statement instead of the were going to close the forums because your angry and we are refusing to accept our part in your anger at being baited into a choice game and switched to the starchild inevitability.

See, I don't want them to fix the ending. The horrible choices they made lead me to believe that a new ending would just fuck it up more. I'd put money on a terribly pandering ending at this point. And that would stink just as bad as the terribly dumb ending.

I will say that Bioware made it incredibly easy to decide to skip the DLC this time around.

[Kail]

If they change it, they probably fear they're starting a bad precedent. If they don't change it they've got to be aware it is hurting them.

What would be the precedent here?

Presumably, that you can cut corners in production and just "patch in" whatever people bitch the loudest about and then crow about how you're "listening" to the playerbase.

The other negative I can see (not for me personally, but for people who evidently care about this kind of thing) is that it hilights the idea that continuity is fluid.  People don't like it when you retcon things, it reminds them that this isn't a "real" world, it's a story helmed by a single person (or a succession of people) who can change anything they don't like about it on a whim.  Some people take things like continuity very seriously, and it bugs them when writers don't show it the same level of respect.

[Ratman_tf]

This sounds like one of those cases where instead of the writers coming up with an ambiguous ending that has many plausible outcomes (with maybe one that is what the writers intended) instead they come up with nonsense that they don't understand themselves.

Zactly. Ambiguous can be good. But in ME3 it was just retarted.

[Sjofn]

Yeah, for me, thinking about it, the ship has sailed on the shitty ending. The ending sucked, I will turn the game off with Shepard sitting next to Anderson on the Citadel in my future playthroughs, adding more to the ending really isn't going to do anything. Because I know. I know what the ending was, and I know it sucked.

Started my MANSHEP playthrough. I am enjoying it, even though I know the ending is ass. I played through the end of ME2 to get this MANSHEP ready for ME3. The reaper baby boss fight? Still fucking retarded.  

[Margalis]

Presumably, that you can cut corners in production and just "patch in" whatever people bitch the loudest about and then crow about how you're "listening" to the playerbase.

This already describes DA2 perfectly, so I'm going to say that ship has sailed.

[Paelos]

Presumably, that you can cut corners in production and just "patch in" whatever people bitch the loudest about and then crow about how you're "listening" to the playerbase.

The other negative I can see (not for me personally, but for people who evidently care about this kind of thing) is that it hilights the idea that continuity is fluid.  People don't like it when you retcon things, it reminds them that this isn't a "real" world, it's a story helmed by a single person (or a succession of people) who can change anything they don't like about it on a whim.  Some people take things like continuity very seriously, and it bugs them when writers don't show it the same level of respect.

You raise an interesting point with your first issue. Would the customers feel betrayed anymore by doing this? I'm fairly sure that they are cutting as many corners as they can, since the company hasn't made an actual profit in years.

As to point two, I can sort of see it as a minor issue. I don't believe that there is a huge part of their playerbase to cause an issue. Loud? Yes. Annoying? Yes. But bottom line affecting? Not that I could see from an outsider POV.

[Ratman_tf]

The whole Mass Effect franchise needs a good post mortem, what with half the writers changing and such.

I agree. I hope Extra Credits does a piece on the series.

[Surlyboi]

I love the fact they blame the app and not the fucking atrocious contempt Bioware show for their fans in the app. Mind you swearing directly at people doesn't help in official forums and will always get you moded, but I can understand peoples rage when they see the ending to a 5 year story was scribbled on a piece of paper and deliberately fucked up "because".

QFT.  You reap what you sow.  EAware is reaping the shitstorm now for turning their back on what got them to be bought out for what was it 800+ million wasn't it?  Instead of coming out and saying hey we fucked up and were going to fix it, they chose the silent treatment.  See how well that has worked???  Well little revelations like this and saying "were listening" isn't going to work either.  Its in fact damaging the Bioware brand.

They need to stop sitting on their hands.  They need to stop sending Priestly and Woo out there to damage control by censor.  They need to go to their fans and state that we know your upset, this isn't everything, and we will fix it in the manner that is true to the series so far.  Your choice will return.

That would end this.  This kind of action would in my opinion be lauded for I think most people think it takes courage to admit when your wrong.  I know I would respect the hell out of that kind of statement instead of the were going to close the forums because your angry and we are refusing to accept our part in your anger at being baited into a choice game and switched to the starchild inevitability.

Saying this as someone who works at a company that prizes it's message discipline, I understand where they're coming from in the, "let's not say or do anything or do anything until we have a solid, almost unassailable answer." That said, I still think they drooped the ball big time. Only time will tell if they can come up with a solid and decent response.

[Velorath]

I just feel like changing the ending at this point would be after the fact focus testing.  It just wouldn't feel right.  The end might be shit, but it's shit that the writers somehow decided to go with as far as I can tell.  It doesn't look like something that was imposed on them in a way that might allow for a Director's Cut with the "real" ending.  Changing the ending here would just make the overall story 99% the writers' "vision" and then 1% fan fiction at the end.  At this point they just need to move forward.  Preferably with Jack, Wrex, Hackett, and maybe Kal'Reeger on Earth taking shit over.

And to add on to what Surlyboi said, as Bioware pointed out, the game hasn't been on very long at all.  Having an in depth, public discussion about the details of the ending when probably a majority  of the player-base hasn't finished the game yet probably wouldn't be the best idea.  Of course it also wasn't a good idea to promise the things about the ending that they did before release.

[Sjofn]

Kal'Reegar is dead. He died in an email.  Tali clearly was using Garrus as a rebound after that.

[Paelos]

I think you're taking the sunk cost philosophy too far in this case. They can't unring the bell, but considering how many times people do playthroughs on this game, and the amount of people that aren't done, I don't think throwing up their hands is the correct response.

[Velorath]

Kal'Reegar is dead. He died in an email.  Tali clearly was using Garrus as a rebound after that.

Must have missed that.  If I can't get an Adam Baldwin voiced Quarian, I'd settle for a Nathan Fillion voiced one instead.

I think you're taking the sunk cost philosophy too far in this case. They can't unring the bell, but considering how many times people do playthroughs on this game, and the amount of people that aren't done, I don't think throwing up their hands is the correct response.

It's not a matter of throwing up their hands, it's a matter of justifying their endings with what they do with it going forward.   I'd prefer they own what they made rather than "you don't like that ending, how about this one?  No?  How about this one that was a popular alternative posted up on a message board?"  I don't typically see writing or any kind of art as a democratic process where you redo it until most people are happy.

[Paelos]

Nor do I. I think it's a large difference between writing by committee message board and realizing you've completely alienated your customers with your conclusion.

[dalien]

God, what an awful end to such an immersive and rewarding series.  What got me is that the ending(s) wouldn't be bad at all if it was one of the three options, and the other two had different outcomes.  After beating it the first time I thought to myself "that was pretty terrible", and loaded up the most recent save to go see the other two endings.  That's when the kick in the balls came for me - the fact that all three are almost identical with different colors.  Incredibly lazy on their part and it really reeks of them being rushed to get it out the door.

I'm doing a second playthrough now and it's pretty depressing knowing that it doesn't matter one bit what I do.  Let this dude live or die, save that colony or nuke it, cure the genophage or don't... *shrug* doesn't matter, just click any random responses.

As for the possibility of future endings, I don't think anyone is expecting full CGI scenes or all the voice actors returning for more lines.  I'd be happy with just a slideshow of your companions and some text describing how they ended up (yeah, I'm at the "bargaining" stage of grief right now  )

R.I.P. Marauder Shields:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=467pmIX-oZo  
He really did his best to stop us from seeing the ending (in fact, I think I'm just going to let him kill me at the end of this playthrough and let that be my ending.)

[Merusk]

  I don't typically see writing or any kind of art as a democratic process where you redo it until most people are happy.

This isn't art, it's business. You rework until the client is happy, which they apparently are not right now.

[Sjofn]

R.I.P. Marauder Shields:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=467pmIX-oZo  
He really did his best to stop us from seeing the ending (in fact, I think I'm just going to let him kill me at the end of this playthrough and let that be my ending.)

Heeeee!

I won't lie. Marauder Shields was probably a better final boss than Reaper Baby. I had somehow forgotten precisely how stupid that was until I redid it two days ago. And yet, I still felt warmly towards it. Because I knew after I finished its stupid fight, I'd have a perfectly decent conclusion to the game.

<sob>

[Ratman_tf]

R.I.P. Marauder Shields:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=467pmIX-oZo  
He really did his best to stop us from seeing the ending (in fact, I think I'm just going to let him kill me at the end of this playthrough and let that be my ending.)

Oh wow. I have a new name for my next mmorpg character. 

[Surlyboi]

Fuckin' totally.

If I ever get into the Secret World beta, I'm all over that shit.

[Ratman_tf]

  I don't typically see writing or any kind of art as a democratic process where you redo it until most people are happy.

This isn't art, it's business. You rework until the client is happy, which they apparently are not right now.

They're in the business of producting art. In this case, a story. Most people don't want a story to pander to them. Especially the Mass Effect series which sold itself on having such things as meaningful choices, philisophical quandries, interesting characters, and yes some gunplay and blue tits.

[Velorath]

  I don't typically see writing or any kind of art as a democratic process where you redo it until most people are happy.

This isn't art, it's business. You rework until the client is happy, which they apparently are not right now.

If you take that attitude, then any artistic creation that is sold as a product is no longer art, it's business, and as such should be altered to satisfy the customers.  Even as one of said customers, I don't advocate telling writers what to write.  At that point they're no longer telling me a story.  I'm just telling them the story I want told back to me.  If these guys were to go back to the drawing board, they wouldn't be thinking about how they want to end the story.  They already did that and we got that ending.  They'd just be pandering to the audience.  Doing fan service. 

And the people who are pissed off right now?  How many of them do you think would really be satisfied if a new ending were put in, and say "thanks for listening to us, Bioware"?  Even ignoring all the people who already hate EA or Bioware, all the Margalis's and Simond's who are making sure their voices are heard about how bad the ending of a game/series they never played has scarred them, even if you just focus on the legitimately upset customers who bought the game, how much do you think changing the end will really change public opinion at this point?  Especially on message boards that aren't exactly known for their forgiving nature?

[Margalis]

The story of a AAA vidja game is already design by committee.

I loathe to say it but I agree in spirit with Vel. But in a production this size there isn't a lot of personal vision from the artiste to begin with.

How many of them do you think would really be satisfied if a new ending were put in, and say "thanks for listening to us, Bioware"?

Depends if it costs $10 or $15.

[Abelian75]

Count me as among those who think it really can't be fixed at this point.  I can't really justify that solidly, and to even try to explain it would require a large wall of text.  I think if I could believe that the ending was just rushed and they wanted to do something else, I'd be excited about a revision.  But I pretty much believe that they intended this and didn't realize how dumb it was (at least the leads didn't... quite possibly a lot of the company silently or less-than-silently hated it), and that kind of ruins it for me no matter what they do.

[dalien]

We're kind of doing apples to oranges here, because most stories/games have a single ending.  FFIII-2 for example had an ending that many didn't like but it was never touted as a game where you could make a bunch of choices to affect the outcome.  Mass Effect since it's inception has always been a choose your own adventure type of game (admittedly, on rails) and they did an exceptional job of tying all your decisions together for the 3 games, until the last 10 minutes.

When I read that there were going to be 3 different endings, I was expecting something like:
A) *happy ending*  Do all the sidequests, keep everyone alive, happy, etc.  Reapers are defeated by the magic space beam and we have a big party on the Citadel
B) *scorched earth*  Everyone dies (including Shepard), Earth etc. are obliterated, but Reapers are defeated by the magic space beam and the few that are left can start rebuilding
C) *bad ending* If you have low war assets and make bad choices on the story missions, the Reapers win and the cycle continues

Instead we got one subpar ending copypasted 3 times.  It's not about altering the "work of art", it's about delivering alternate outcomes like they did for 99% of the series.  People have invested hundreds of hours replaying ME1/ME2 to get different saves ready for ME3.  That's why they're manning the neckbeards.

[Polysorbate80]

My suggestion how Bioware can "fix" ME3:

[Velorath]

The story of a AAA vidja game is already design by committee.

I loathe to say it but I agree in spirit with Vel. But in a production this size there isn't a lot of personal vision from the artiste to begin with.

Designed by a committee, but then so are TV series and movies to an extent as well.  I think there's a decent amount of room for personal vision, it's just that maybe Mac Walters personal vision wasn't particularly good.  Bioware's talent has always largely been in their character work rather than their plot.  I don't think matters were helped any when Drew Karpyshyn left the ME team to work on Swtor and then ultimately leave Bioware presumably to focus more on non-game writing.

[Riggswolfe]

The counter to it is that if the information coming out from that app is correct it sounds like this ending wasn't so much "the vision" as "oh shit we're out of time, let's slap something on there and watch the fans make up theories about it."

[Velorath]

The counter to it is that if the information coming out from that app is correct it sounds like this ending wasn't so much "the vision" as "oh shit we're out of time, let's slap something on there and watch the fans make up theories about it."

Sounds like they were out of time due to poor planning though.  You'd think working on something like this writers would generally work out the beginning and the end first and then flesh out the middle.  If time starts to get short you cut out the side quests and maybe trim the main plot where needed.  You don't hold off on writing the end until a few months before release.  So maybe "vision" isn't the right term, but it's the path they ultimately condemned themselves to.

[LK]

Isn't Writing 101 start with a clear beginning and an end and write everything in between? They did a fine job tying up most everything by the time of the final level.

I would have been extremely happy if they put in the extended "Family" dialog between Shepard and Anderson, complete with "You ever wonder how things could be different... if you made different choices...?" In fact, in my head, that's what happened, because that's perfect.

I'm thinking back to Metal Gear Solid 4's ending and how, to me, that did justice to the entire series and as a send-off.

[Ingmar]

... when Drew Karpyshyn left the ME team to work on Swtor and then ultimately leave Bioware presumably to focus more on non-game writing.

This is a special kind of lose/lose, because his novels are terrible.

[Sjofn]

I don't know about terrible, but they are definitely not very good. At all.

OK, maybe they are terrible.