Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread [Spoiler tag free, beware]

[Margalis]

Why does this matter if the game frames the story with your choices in mind? For example, I killed the Rachni Queen in ME1. I knew with the Rachni/Reaper Queen in ME3 that I was being shown content that everyone else was also seeing regardless of what decisions they made, but the game still respected my choices. When Wrex first tells you about the mission, you and your companions acknowledge that it shouldn't be possible because you killed the last Rachni Queen.

This is barely even the illusion of choice.

Under this logic Bioware would be respecting your decisions if at the start of 3 there was a text scroll that said "the reapers travelled back in time and changed your decisions to X, Y and Z! DAMN THEM!"

You are pointing to a place where they lampshade what was in essence a retcon. Obviously it depends on what you call "respecting" your choices but "character X has been replaced with a convenient doppleganger" seems like a very loose definition of respect.

 The God Child when in human form in the cutscene at the begining gathers reactions from no one even though its struggling to get into the ship right before that ship is vaporized.  No soldiers react to him.  Its as if no one else sees him.  Also I challenge anyone to explain to me what the hell those dream sequences are.

Someone watched too much Battlestar is the obvious answer.

Guys, I hate to break it to you, but 99.99% of the time when you encounter nonsense writing in a game it's not some clever ploy, it's nonsense. Even if there is some crazy switcheroo dream ending it's been done so poorly that it's no better than just being a bad ending.

I'm reminded of people who defended Bulletstorm by saying that the game was clearly a parody of "dudebro" shooters. Only the devs themselves later said that it wasn't, they thought it was genuinely funny in a not tongue-in-cheek way, and if it came off poorly it might be because they are not native english speakers. Never attribute to some sort of awesome master plan what you can attribute to plain poor execution.

Let's say nobody reacts to the kid because he just exists in Shep's head, and there is some secret ending (very unlikely, given that the disc has been mined) or DLC ending that explains it. Is that better?

[luckton]

[Lantyssa]

Assuming you're objecting to the former, I think Mass Effect is unique when it comes to offering the player a vast number of decisions whose consequences are present throughout a three-game series.

Wizardry 6 through 8.  Your choices in each, while more limited than ME, could make a big impact in 8.

[Fabricated]

The "Ending-o-Matic" seems to be the thing with the "dynamic"  and "choice filled" games lately. Deus Ex: Human Revolution literally has a panel with 3 buttons, then another hallway with a button. You literally have a "POOSH BUTAN, RECEIV ENDING" machine.

Deus Ex:Human Revolution also explains literally nothing that happens afterwards so there's still a lot of unknowns as to what's between it and the original Deus Ex, but Jensen explaining his choice and its implications was actually fairly satisfying to me somehow.

Well, barring the ridiculously awful, "I think I'll kill everyone for no good fucking reason" ending that the game seems to imply is the right one.

[amiable]

Assuming you're objecting to the former, I think Mass Effect is unique when it comes to offering the player a vast number of decisions whose consequences are present throughout a three-game series.

Wizardry 6 through 8.  Your choices in each, while more limited than ME, could make a big impact in 8.

God i loved those games.   I still boot up a dos emulator every so often and play them.  Why can basically one dude (David Bradley) write a more coherent sotry thatn the stable of writers they brought on for this triple-A title?

I'm not sure who to blame, Bioware has been riding on the coattails of their baldur's gate goodwill for over a decade.  Every game since (save maybe dragon age 1 and kotor 1) has been a real let down in the story department.  Everyting they do lately feels like they rushed at the last minute to make some arbitrary marketing deadline.  I wish I could merge Blizzard's "it's finished when it's finished" mentality with some of Bioware's better writing teams.

[luckton]

There's no argument.  I blame EA, their stockholders, and the "bottom line".  I think Bioware does have the "it's finished when it's finished" mentality, but they lack the ability to tell EA to STFU and let them do their thing proper.

[Maledict]

Feels like I've been punched in the stomach. Up until the last 10 minutes of the game, this was *the* single best game I've ever played. The emotional attachment to my crew and the characters in the game was astounding. in every way this game was better than ME2, and I I played ME2 through 3 times and I never replay games!

Then...that ending. Honest to gods I understand they want to spin it off into an MMO so needed *one* ending that could be used as an MMO platform, but they aren't getting me as a customer. Don't think I've ever been so disappointed in  a book, film or game before.

[Fabricated]

No company really has the timetable to put in the kind of work required to really have an expansive game with wildly divergent paths I guess.

To be fair, if they had say, made it so that killing the Rachni queen in ME1 prevent you from being able to (or having to, however you wish to phrase it) do the mission involving the Rachni they would have either had to put in some sort of choice at the beginning of the game (like Ashley/Kaidan/Wrex) so you could choose to get it or not. Because if they had really shut off your ability to get access to content without the previous titles people would've been just as pissed as they are about the day 1 DLC.

[Sjofn]

I know people are hyperfocusing on the rachni queen as "lol my choices didn't matter" but I think they handled that fine. The explanation for why she's there (it's a clone, right?) is fine, and there IS still a consequence to killing the original queen. If you did, and let this new queen live, she bails on you, and hurts some engineers on her way out, overall hurting your readiness score, so don't be wishywashy about murdering rachni queens, I guess.

It's not perfect, but it's not quite as bad as people imply.

[Maledict]

I don't mind about that. I was more than happy with the brief mentions my previous actions had - even if the difference was merely a different number on the war screen, it still was there in some form or other. I liked how the Rachni played out - if you saved them, they helped you, if you didn't then you either had to kill them or they turn traiitor and harm the war effort. in the games context, that's how I always thought it would play out in some form or other. The continuity between ME2 and Me3 in particular I thought was strong.

It's the simple fact that the game completely and utterly changed in the last 10 minutes. It's the fact the plot made no sense - at all. It actually contravenes the entire events of the last 2 games! It's gibberish at best. I just spent 3 games uniting the galaxy - organics ANd synthetics, to help destroy the reapers. And then I'm left with no choice but to either kill them all, merge the entirety of life or just resume the cycle further down the road? Screw that, I want the John Sheridan option.

"We've grown up now, we don't need you, get the hell out of our galaxy. "

Mass Effect is a space opera. I went the full distance, played the games for many hours, spent the time to do everything "right", I should get a damn happy ending with Shepherd + LI and get to see what happens to the galaxy now. Not some existential shit that directly contradicts the actual game, reduces *everything* I've done to the same decision, fucks over every person in the game I ever held any interest AND the entire galaxy at the same time and is completely the opposite of how the game should end. It felt like a completely different team of writers did those last 10 minutes, and whether they thought they were being clever or "provocative" all they did was fuck up something that could of been fantastic.

EDIT@ There's probably another, more personal overtone to my rage actually which is slightly embarrassing but WTF. This is the first time in a computer game where I've been able to have a gay LI and it was portrayed as completely normal. No mentions, no shock, nothing - everyone just accepted it, and the scenes were actually well written and quite touching. Major props to Bioware for that. Hell, they made Kaiden a likeable character which is completely beyond me. Having that then end with Shepherd dyring and him either marooned on another world or dead to a giant laser beam from Harbringer just sucked. Probably very stupid to emotionally invest in something like that, but it did have an impact on me I wasn;t expecting when the romance option opened up and it was so natural and normal in game.

[Sjofn]

Oh, don't worry, I am totally and completely with you on "wtf was with that fucking ending." Venting helps.

[Lantyssa]

EDIT@ There's probably another, more personal overtone to my rage actually which is slightly embarrassing but WTF. This is the first time in a computer game where I've been able to have a gay LI and it was portrayed as completely normal. No mentions, no shock, nothing - everyone just accepted it, and the scenes were actually well written and quite touching. Major props to Bioware for that.

I've seen one other, but it's not out yet.  Still, I was really happy with how things have been handled so far.

(Still way early in my play through, I don't even know if there is an option for me, but they've had all kinds of little viginettes which have made me happy.  Well, sad, but happy they're treated like anyone else dealing with a galaxy going to shit.)

[Jeff Kelly]

As far as I know it should be Liara, the embedded reporter and Sgt. Traynor (the communications officer) as female same-sex LI options and Kaidan and the shuttle pilot (Lopez I think) as male same-sex LI options,

[Maledict]

It's Cortez as the shuttle pilot for the male option (who dies in a horrible ball of fire near the end. Only person to get singled out like that, poor guy!).

Cortez and Treynor are also same sex only options - they won't romance opposite sex characters which I also liked. Again adds to the "normality" of it all rather than just "we'll let you sleep with some straight characters if you want!".

[Jeff Kelly]

Well the whole game dies in a horrible ball of fire near the end he just beats the rush

[Maledict]

Yeah, don't remind me.

It's so clearly set up for an ME4 or ME MMO it's pretty sad. We don't get a proper resolution in our story because it needs to be milked for a further franchise, so every ending has to basically be the same and put everyone in the same situation.

[jakonovski]

It's Cortez as the shuttle pilot for the male option (who dies in a horrible ball of fire near the end. Only person to get singled out like that, poor guy!).

My Cortez survived, he went down in flames and then after a moment of silence there was a HEY GUYS IM OK.

[Miasma]

It's so clearly set up for an ME4 or ME MMO it's pretty sad. We don't get a proper resolution in our story because it needs to be milked for a further franchise, so every ending has to basically be the same and put everyone in the same situation.

I don't see why you would think that.  If they wanted ME4 or another MMO (no chance with swtor) they wouldn't have destroyed the mass relays and all other technology along with it.  I don't even see how they could do more DLC unless it's set in a time before the game's ending.

I've been looking at the bioware social network, people are so desperate they are believing a flaky report from "an insider" that bioware intentionally made a terrible ending because of the leaks and plan a DLC called "The Truth" that will have the real ending.  That is insane and that people are willing to believe it shows how incredulous people are about the end.

[Miasma]

It's Cortez as the shuttle pilot for the male option (who dies in a horrible ball of fire near the end. Only person to get singled out like that, poor guy!).

My Cortez survived, he went down in flames and then after a moment of silence there was a HEY GUYS IM OK.

Yeah he survived fine on my playthrough.  Bioware only kills him off if you get all gay with him.  No I'm not serious.

[Rokal]

Yeah he survived fine on my playthrough.  Bioware only kills him off if you get all gay with him.  No I'm not serious.

I picked the paragon/friendly choices with him but didn't romance him. I kept my Tali romance from ME2 going, which I immediately regretted when Shepard and Tali began flirting during missions. If they actually only kill him if you pick him as a LI...

This is barely even the illusion of choice.

That's subjective, but I thought the rachni example I gave in particular was the most egregious example of 'choices don't matter for story path', and I was also totally okay with how they handled it. I didn't completely wipe out the Rachni like I thought and the Reapers managed to create a clone of a queen. It's not a huge stretch when the main-character in your game died and was re-created from an old corpse in the previous game. The context of that mission for my Shepard was exterminating an old threat once and for all, and I felt like the game was still respecting my choices.

[Ingmar]

Yeah he survived fine on my playthrough.  Bioware only kills him off if you get all gay with him.  No I'm not serious.

I picked the paragon/friendly choices with him but didn't romance him. I kept my Tali romance from ME2 going, which I immediately regretted when Shepard and Tali began flirting during missions. If they actually only kill him if you pick him as a LI...

Whether or not he lives or dies is down to how you treated him in various dialogues, I believe, I don't think it has anything to do with whether or not you romanced him. The same sort of thing happens with Miranda.

[Maledict]

Yeah - I didn't romance him, and he died in a ball of fire for me. I was quite happy with Kaiden, who they miraculously made good somehow.

Miranda, on the other hand - she lives if you speak to her in the citedal and tell her about Kal, otherwise she dies. It's possible her loyalty figures into it from ME2 as well, but that's definitely the trigger for her. Probably the same for Cortez - at some point if you keep talking to him you'll get a dialogue point, otherwise he dies. I didn't speak to him because I was worried I'd lock myself out of getting it on with Kaiden...

[Ingmar]

Ah, Kai Leng, this games little touch of :metzen:. Probably really the only other thing that really bothered me from a story/character point of view other than the ending. He'd bother me a lot less if he just had some guns and was jumping around like a John Woo movie, I think, the melee weapon thing is just kind of stupid in this sort of environment and his AI was just nuts, he mostly ran around in the distance without coming to get anybody. At least we do get to kill him, unlike some other examples of this sort of thing.

[Lantyssa]

As far as I know it should be Liara, the embedded reporter and Sgt. Traynor (the communications officer) as female same-sex LI options and Kaidan and the shuttle pilot (Lopez I think) as male same-sex LI options,

I told the reporter to GTFO.  Way too uncanny valley, and I couldn't see having a reporter taking up space when I'm trying to save the galaxy.

So that was a little flirting coming from Traynor.  I can live with that.

[Ingmar]

I kept her around for the war points, but god she was hard to look at. Her voice acting was even worse, that was a terrible bit of casting right there. The problem wasn't in the dialogue itself, there, a real actress would have done fine with it.

[Maledict]

Plus what the hell was she wearing? That outfit was plain weird.

[Simond]

It's so clearly set up for an ME4 or ME MMO it's pretty sad. We don't get a proper resolution in our story because it needs to be milked for a further franchise, so every ending has to basically be the same and put everyone in the same situation.

I don't see why you would think that.  If they wanted ME4 or another MMO (no chance with swtor) they wouldn't have destroyed the mass relays and all other technology along with it.

Think I posted this in the other thread, but it makes perfect sense for an MMO. Set it a few decades or a century down the road and use the "Destroy" command as the base. Why are there only X worlds/zones? Because that's the size of the local cluster of useful star systems. Why do all the races start in the same place? Because they were all trapped in the Sol System when Shepard nuked civilisations. Why is there a bunch of newbies being sent out to explore now? Because the MacGuffin Drive only just went into service and we need to find out what's out there. And so on.

[Maledict]

It's so clearly set up for an ME4 or ME MMO it's pretty sad. We don't get a proper resolution in our story because it needs to be milked for a further franchise, so every ending has to basically be the same and put everyone in the same situation.

I don't see why you would think that.  If they wanted ME4 or another MMO (no chance with swtor) they wouldn't have destroyed the mass relays and all other technology along with it.  I don't even see how they could do more DLC unless it's set in a time before the game's ending.

I've been looking at the bioware social network, people are so desperate they are believing a flaky report from "an insider" that bioware intentionally made a terrible ending because of the leaks and plan a DLC called "The Truth" that will have the real ending.  That is insane and that people are willing to believe it shows how incredulous people are about the end.

As Simond says, the new set-up is perfect for an MMO or a new series. (Synthesis ending is the "cannon" ending).

You now have a multitude of races all in one easy starting area (Sol System), you can go exploring in new systems totally unconnected to the Mass relay network (who knows what lurks out there), it removes the need to explain why you can't visit Tuchanka / Thessia / Palavan, etc. That's why every ending is effectively the same - because every ending leaves you with a nice, neat set-up of a lot of races in a small area and new systems to be explored using normal FTL drives. Continuing the series with the Mass Relay network in place is actually a hell of a lot harder at this point.

[Ingmar]

Krogan and Asari live for so long I think they could probably just fly home eventually anyway. Just have to beat up the quarians and take one of their liveships and grow your kind of food instead of theirs.

Assuming of course all the ships in the sky weren't scrubbed out by the explosion of the relay, but if they were the whole idea of there being enough of anything but humans to sustain a race is really iffy. And of course if those ships didn't all get wasted by  the explosion, then the Normandy thing at the end is even stupider.

[Miasma]

Miranda can live?  Fucking hell.  Oh well, I assume she dies on the citadel later with the other thousand people I helped, all in vain.  I wonder if that is another thing I got screwed over on for not having an ME2 save game.

As for Kaiden I wrongly assumed that terrible Kai Leng character would wind up being him since the one plot question you were asked starting the new game was "did you let ashley or kaiden die".  I thought whichever one I let die would wind up being man/fem-Kai Leng.  "Old jilted friend turned enemy" wound up being the one cliche they didn't use.

[Maledict]

Miranda can live?  Fucking hell.  Oh well, I assume she dies on the citadel with the other thousand people I helped, all in vain.  I wonder if that is another thing I screwed over on for not having an ME2 savegame.

As for Kaiden I wrongly assumed that terrible Kai Leng character would wind up being him since the one plot question you were asked starting the new game was "did you let ashley or kaiden die".  I thought whichever one I let die would wind up being man/fem-Kai Leng.  "Old jilted friend turned enemy" wound up being the one cliche they didn't use.

IF Miranda lives she joins in the final battle with other ex-cerberus in an elite fighter unit. In fact I think *everyone* from ME2 is there if you did all the quests "correctly" in one form or another - either with the Crucible or fighting with the fleets.

[Ingmar]

Miranda can live?  Fucking hell.  Oh well, I assume she dies on the citadel later with the other thousand people I helped, all in vain.  I wonder if that is another thing I got screwed over on for not having an ME2 save game.

As for Kaiden I wrongly assumed that terrible Kai Leng character would wind up being him since the one plot question you were asked starting the new game was "did you let ashley or kaiden die".  I thought whichever one I let die would wind up being man/fem-Kai Leng.  "Old jilted friend turned enemy" wound up being the one cliche they didn't use.

Miranda will only die if you don't trust her with Alliance access, I believe. And she didn't waltz out of the magical Normandy teleporting at the end, so in my head she and Shepard get back together after she pulls him out of wherever the fuck it was he was supposed to have landed at the end of my playthrough.

Kai Leng is a character from the (not very good at all, seriously they are not good) books by Drew Karpyshyn who was the lead writer on at least ME1, maybe also ME2. Annoying, Mary Sue-ish super character.

[Miasma]

Miranda will only die if you don't trust her with Alliance access, I believe.

I met with her every time and gave her the alliance assets she wanted the last time we met and warned her about Kai-leng.  I chose the paragon option with her father and talked him out of holding her sister, so either that was what I did wrong or I needed ME2 data.

[Ingmar]

Hmm, interesting! Maybe she needed to be flagged as loyal from ME2 also.

[LK]

I had Loyal Miranda who quit Cerberus after I destroyed the Collector Base. My Shepard worked with her completely (she specifically thanks me for the warning about Kai-Leng) and used the Paragon Special to talk her father out of holding her sister, where Miranda promptly killed her father. Miranda survived until the end -- her arc seemed to work out great for me. But I wonder about the other different arcs, like if you didn't saved the Collector Base or didn't help her on the Loyalty mission.