Pissed about an X-Com FPS? Firaxis hears ya...

[Mrbloodworth]

So, towards the end of the second demo mission,

Has anyone found a way to do that? Or is it just gitty-gitty-gat-gat and hope the loot roll at the end of the mission turns out OK?

Capturing has always been a part of X-com, so you can research. But its also always been one of the hardest things to do as the game goes on. You needed stun and freeze type equipment, and I assume that's true in this one.

Really glad that's in though, I half figured they would just magically: "You did not kill him, hes just knocked out" it at the end of a mission.

[CmdrSlack]

Why did I play this demo? October 9 cannot come soon enough. I just hope that Gamestop has some kind of "pick up on the 8th/midnight pickup" thing going on because that will be required. Something tells me I'll be suddenly ill on Oct. 10.

[Merusk]

So, towards the end of the second demo mission,

Has anyone found a way to do that? Or is it just gitty-gitty-gat-gat and hope the loot roll at the end of the mission turns out OK?

Capturing has always been a part of X-com, so you can research. But its also always been one of the hardest things to do as the game goes on. You needed stun and freeze type equipment, and I assume that's true in this one.

Really glad that's in though, I half figured they would just magically: "You did not kill him, hes just knocked out" it at the end of a mission.

There's stun sticks (needs research) and mind control in the game. They covered this in one of the play-throughs linked earlier and I was really excited about it.  Capping when you can't kill a fucker is sometimes a lot easier than reloading after one rounds a corner on you and hoping you don't die in the next turn.

[Megrim]

Passable demo, but my two biggest concerns remain; console-port ui (bleh), and small maps. Rest of it seems ok, more akin to a skirmish board-game now, but this isn't a bad thing.

[lamaros]

Passable demo, but my two biggest concerns remain; console-port ui (bleh), and small maps. Rest of it seems ok, more akin to a skirmish board-game now, but this isn't a bad thing.

It's not a console port: pc was developed from the start side by side. There are some hotkey issues, but I found it pretty natural after playing it over a bit. Also the lead dev is a pc gamer and has said a number of times about how it is his preference.

Also the demo is not especially indicative: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/09/25/some-things-you-should-know-about-the-xcom-demo/

[Ingmar]

It doesn't have to be a port to have a UI that is designed to work well on a console (that conversely carries some issues on the PC), just being built together is enough to give a game that. (Haven't tried it yet myself.)

[lamaros]

It doesn't have to be a port to have a UI that is designed to work well on a console (that conversely carries some issues on the PC), just being built together is enough to give a game that. (Haven't tried it yet myself.)

I agree. Though personally I can say it didn't feel this way. The things I found most annoying were virtue of the demo, more than anything else.

I say this having watched way too many previews, but in the full PC version you can change keybindings, there are very few cutscenes, that commander dude doesn't talk much, the game is harder (demo is on easy difficulty from a tutorial mission), you can double click on rooms in the base to move around, etc. As for the more general 'design' thing: I like the less is more interface, I didn't find I was missing information at any point.

For better or for worse they have really locked down what can be done in the demo, and I think as a result it might give some false impressions.

Small maps.

There are a few larger maps that I've seen, plus some of the similar sized ones (to the second demo one) are more engaging when there are more enemies on them.

[kildorn]

Tutorial mission pissed me off, just because it forces you to put troops in absolutely idiotic positions with no fire support. :P

Actual playable mission made me hate the UI a bit, but was fun. I forgot how cautiously I play XCom.

[Megrim]

Passable demo, but my two biggest concerns remain; console-port ui (bleh), and small maps. Rest of it seems ok, more akin to a skirmish board-game now, but this isn't a bad thing.

It's not a console port: pc was developed from the start side by side. There are some hotkey issues, but I found it pretty natural after playing it over a bit. Also the lead dev is a pc gamer and has said a number of times about how it is his preference.

Also the demo is not especially indicative: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/09/25/some-things-you-should-know-about-the-xcom-demo/

Huehuehuehue, ok right. C'mon man, seriously, look at the xbox gameplay and then the pc. The ui is identical, except they just re-labelled the buttons. Even the internal logic of cycling through targets with a locked camera, confirming selections, large center-of--screen popups, its all console design.

Not that I'm saying its bad - perfectly playable - but calling it "developed for pc" is marketing horseshit.

[Quinton]

You can click to select units with the mouse, there are hotkeys to select specific units, etc.  It's clearly console-friendly in ways, but it's hardly console-only.  I found the UI pretty reasonable playing through the demo.

[lamaros]

Passable demo, but my two biggest concerns remain; console-port ui (bleh), and small maps. Rest of it seems ok, more akin to a skirmish board-game now, but this isn't a bad thing.

It's not a console port: pc was developed from the start side by side. There are some hotkey issues, but I found it pretty natural after playing it over a bit. Also the lead dev is a pc gamer and has said a number of times about how it is his preference.

Also the demo is not especially indicative: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/09/25/some-things-you-should-know-about-the-xcom-demo/

Huehuehuehue, ok right. C'mon man, seriously, look at the xbox gameplay and then the pc. The ui is identical, except they just re-labelled the buttons. Even the internal logic of cycling through targets with a locked camera, confirming selections, large center-of--screen popups, its all console design.

Not that I'm saying its bad - perfectly playable - but calling it "developed for pc" is marketing horseshit.

Graphically the UI is the same, but the PC version has a lot more keyboard shortcuts and can do quite a few things the console versions cannot. That make it pretty distinct to me.

I haven't had any "why do I have to scroll with the arrows?" or "why can't I just click that?" moments like I would normally have with "console" UIs.

The keyboard shortcuts in the demo version are hidden, and sometimes unavailable due to tutorial hand-holding (you can't rotate the camera in the first mission until they tell you how, for example), and can't be rebound, but these are demo and tutorial influences, not PC elements that carry over into the full game.

[HaemishM]

October 9th is so fucking long from now.   

[KallDrexx]

I remember the original Xcom not having a stellar demo as well and not fully showing the games depth.  Just one random mission, although it did make me buy the full game with a full fear of chrysalids

[lamaros]

October 9th is so fucking long from now.   

It's out October 12th here. Luckily I get to play it tomorrow night. 

[Megrim]

Cool, did you win the contest?

[DraconianOne]

The nerd-rage will be strong with this one. 

[lamaros]

Cool, did you win the contest?

Yeah, will hopefully get a good chance to see how it goes.

[Murgos]

I thought the demo had flaws, the geoscape for example was mostly just an afterthought and the mission select portion of it made little sense.  The UI has been commented on but things I wanted to do intuitively weren't possible, however when I figured out what they intended it was smooth enough.

That said, demo, and it showed a lot of demo cliches, like the excessive hand-holding, cut-scenes and locked down features but, that was fine really.

The thing that sold it was having one guy get his cover blown away and then next turn using the rocket launcher to frag two aliens at once, or another squaddie reaction shotgunning a thin-man and then next turn tossing a grenade through a window killing the remaining baddies and thus ending the mission.

Some minor complaints: First, since swapping weapons does not cost an action and you cannot move and shoot some weapons on the same turn when you move someone equipped that way they should automatically swap out to their secondary weapon rather than force me to do swap->move->overwatch->end turn->swap->fire->end turn->swap->move->overwatch & etc.  There is no reason that can't be contextually handled.  Secondly, disembarking from the transport was an integral part of the X-Com experience and it's lack is disappointing.  Disembarking at a terror mission was one of the most stressful and dangerous parts of the whole mission and really built those experiences from the first moment, starting out deployed is, well, meh.  I can't count the number of times a squaddie got half-way down the ramp and took a plasma bolt to the face from an unseen enemy, trying to get out of that kind of tactical situation efficiently is, to me, what made X-Com really shine.

Sure, on unopposed landings it made deployments rather tedious but that caution from step 1 really ramped up the intensity.

[lamaros]

The thinking behind no deploy surprise robots is that with a smaller group of soldiers such losses are less fair and can have bigger consequences.

It'd be nice to have, but the combat now seems to balance that by being much more tactical and engaging, so I can live with it.

[Merusk]

The thinking behind no deploy surprise robots is that with a smaller group of soldiers such losses are less fair and can have bigger consequences.

It'd be nice to have, but the combat now seems to balance that by being much more tactical and engaging, so I can live with it.

Yeah, with a max squad size less than half of the original game it means no fodder to absorb those ramp losses.  I'm ok with the loss of deploy even though I agree with Margalis on it being so integral to the tone of the original.

As for map size, watch some of the demo plays linked earlier. Specifically seek-out the terror mission play-through.  There's larger maps than they're showing.

[HaemishM]

No deployment off the ramp means I can't accidentally fire a tracking missile out the back of the lander and destroy half of my troops still sitting on the ramp.

[Mrbloodworth]

Heh.

[Merusk]

"That goddamn squaddie was one level up and in the lander.  How the fuck did he overwatch my best troop in the back of the goddamn head"

Good times.

[Korachia]

Well, offloading from the ramp became pretty trivial as soon as you just threw 2-3 smoke-nades. Hell you could create a path of smoke to the nearest cover if needed. So not sure I will miss it.

[lamaros]

So I played a bit of the multiplayer tonight. It was pretty fun. It was set for 45 second turns and 7500 points, so it was pretty much impossible to play with 6 units (which I had), and I don't think 70 seconds (which is supposedly what the ranked games will be, with 10000 points) will be much better.

Custom games with longer turns and more points look like they will be really great though. I'd be pretty interested in setting up some sort of league if there was enough interest.

[Njal]

We all hate you until the 9th (or 12th in Europe). :)

[Sky]

70 seconds (which is supposedly what the ranked games will be, with 10000 points)

Yeesh, I thought the 2 minute BB turns were rough at first...

[KallDrexx]

According to the forums you can mod the demo to change the scripting, remove cutscenes, change weapons on your squad, fight other alien types, etc...

More specifically here is the program someone made to edit the demo to play against other enemies.

*edit* Updated link

[calapine]

Civ 5 for everyone soon!

Re Demo: I played it and wasn't too fond of it. Game feels....gamey. It's all about cover, and cover isn't cover, it's just 20% bonus to defense. Old UFO had a shot going on a straight line to you, and hit your soldier, something in between, or another alien. Remember when one of your guys shot a friendly in the back? In this game you cant even target anything but aliens. And shot clip through the environment. How did they manage to regress technically?

Zones, it's a demo so maybe its different in the full version, but: They feel..gamey again...second mission is one long pipe. And it looks well, unremarkable and plastic. Nothing like a real world/city.

Soldiers: I loved the mini-game of outfitting them individually, now its a class-system. Heavy Weapons guy/Grunt/Medic. Seems fine but: Normal soldor carries 1 grenade, not 2, not 3, no smoke grenade, nothing fancy like the demolation charges of old UFO. Medic has med-pac option to use and well, no grenade. It's...class A can do this, class B can do this.

AP system made you choose...do I shoot or do I run? Now you can do both, but only in the order of Run than shoot,and the range is always the same. Again, a system designed to simulate limited time got replaced by something...gamey...Move..Shoot.

Geoscape, it doesn't really exist anymore. You can select to have a base in Europe or Northern America, Asia. Depending what place you pick you get a sort of bonus (cheaper costs, better planes, etc...)
Instead of sandboy world to build several bases, freely, you have a single one with gamey bonuses.

There are no alien base attacks. Remember the scare of aliens coming to your own base? And seeing the base layout you made yourself when constructing in battle? It's all gone.

UI, its very consolised. No free moving camera, just switching between soldiers. Confirmation checkboxes for everything. Press 1 to shoot at selected Alien. Click "OK" button to confirm.

More here when I sobered up.
Besides, I am not saying the game "sucks", I am saying it's quite different to the original UFO and many aspects that made it so special and addicting are gone.

[lamaros]

The demo is very different to the full game.

It's even different to the tutorial in the full game. And the version I was looking at was just the preview build, which has had a few bugs and etc changed. As per your extended points I'll try give you a better reply later when not mobile. But generally speaking I think that UFO had a lot of mostly frivolous options, or ones that were not really strategic but just ways you could shoot yourself in the foot. EU has added a lot more in tactical play in my view, and the geoscape might be more 'gamey' but I also think that has some positives.

[Ratman_tf]

The demo is very different to the full game.

It's even different to the tutorial in the full game. And the version I was looking at was just the preview build, which has had a few. It's and etc changed. As per your extended points I'll try give you a better reply later when not mobile. But generally speaking I think that UFO had a lot of mostly frivolous options, or ones that were not really strategic but just ways you could shoot yourself in the foot. EU has added a lot more in tactical play in my view, and the geoscape might be more 'gamey' but I also think that has some positives.

X-Com, the laser rifle manufacuturing sim! 

[Merusk]

What.. you mean I wasn't the only one who crafted 100,000 laser rifles in a manufacturing base and sold them regularly for cash flow?! I'm SHOCKED!

No base attacks is kind of disappointing, but the base layout removal isn't.  There was a definite "Must build" order and a definite "must use" layout.  Doing anything beyond 

hanger - hanger - hanger
lift tube
actual base

Was pointless and just asking for your soldiers to get needlessly slaughtered. But when you did it you could defend the whole base with one blaster or rocket launcher and a crew of 3.  The sum of the mechanics made the base attacks nothing but time wasters.

I'll confess I've been a bit disappointed by the class system forcing gear options, but not by the removal of APs.  It remains a turn based tactical and more in-line with more modern games like the FFA series.  APs were a throwback to the old wargaming and mini systems and having to remember "Must keep at least 30/25/19 APs" at the end of a turn was maddening.. particularly when you misclicked and wound-up exposed and at 0aps.   

I've been replaying TFTD recently and even more maddening is how I forgot "heavy" weapons steal APs off 'weak' characters at the start of the turn.. so often it's "oh, you turned around, no firing for you THIS turn!"

[Murgos]

Gonna SirBruce a bit:

Re Demo: I played it and wasn't too fond of it. Game feels....gamey. It's all about cover, and cover isn't cover, it's just 20% bonus to defense.

Old UFO had a shot going on a straight line to you, and hit your soldier, something in between, or another alien. Remember when one of your guys shot a friendly in the back? In this game you cant even target anything but aliens. And shot clip through the environment. How did they manage to regress technically?

I think the shots clipping through the environment is a drawing thing and not a real thing, I had several shots hit my cover and eventually destroy the cover without hitting my squaddie.  I don't think 'bonus to defense' is an accurate way to describe how cover works in this game, it certainly doesn't describe my experiences.

Also, not being able to target your own troop when firing does not mean you can't shoot someone in the back on a bad shot.  I never targeted my own guy in X-Com unless trying to heal them and managed to frag plenty pf them so, uh whatever.

Zones, it's a demo so maybe its different in the full version, but: They feel..gamey again...second mission is one long pipe. And it looks well, unremarkable and plastic. Nothing like a real world/city.

Not only a demo but a tutorial mission.  I mean, really?  Sure, it's a limited exposure but you're really premature with this one.

AP system made you choose...do I shoot or do I run? Now you can do both, but only in the order of Run than shoot,and the range is always the same. Again, a system designed to simulate limited time got replaced by something...gamey...Move..Shoot.

i'm not so much bothered by move->shoot as I am by the lack (or my not understanding) of facing and FoV.  But, TU's were a shitty device and it was good to get rid of them.

UI, its very consolised. No free moving camera, just switching between soldiers.

This is a complete fabrication.  You have more control of the camera now than you ever did in any previous X-com.  Rotate, pan, zoom, and elevation, it's all there.  You only ever had pan and elevation previously.  I think you should read the tips in the Tutorial, it's why they are there.  Also, you always only ever switched between soldiers.  You had an active soldier and then you moved the camera, it's exactly the same but better.

As far as the Geoscape goes the only thing missing is multiple bases and radar coverage.  Well the radar coverage is being handled with satellites now so whatever and I am not convinced that multiple bases was a good thing.  It certainly added nothing fun.  Base invasions though, that I am going to miss.

[Njal]

The number of base invasions that actually occurred in my numerous games I could count on one hand. I never bothered to set up the bases to optimize defence because it simply wasn't worth it. Oh look it's the attack battleship lets shoot that sucker down and then loot the corpse. So in sum it doesn't bother me that base defence missions are gone.

Why can't it be October 9th yet!

[Ironwood]

Once you got the Plasma Defenses (and then the fusion defenses) and the pad that repelled the ufo up for another shot, there was no such mission as Base Defense.

That was always quite lol.