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Author Topic: JK/SW Sentinel / Marauder theorycatasspoopsocking to victory  (Read 26658 times)
SnakeCharmer
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on: November 30, 2011, 08:55:58 PM

I played the Sentinel (and Marauder) for nearly 9 months during beta, with some side time in the DPS trees for Guardian and Juggernut.  It gets a bad rap as being way to mushy and subpar in damage output.  The general...whine...was since all they could do was DPS that they should be significantly better than other DPS classes.  There were (and still are) a couple or three problems with the class:
* Develops later in the progression than other classes.
* Itemization KILLED it for a good while.
* Requires quick thinking and reaction - best comparison I've come to for it is speed chess.  You cannot faceroll it, and you can't approach every target/situation the same

It's also hamstrung in that you have to play each tree in somewhat of a specific way.  You have to think fast, and react faster.  It's a highly mobile class, without much/any lock down crowd control.  But it makes up for it in terms of gap closing ability and skill interrupts (most of any class, and shortest cooldowns).  You can effectively lock someone down and make them not be able to do ANYTHING of any importance or effectiveness, and if you manage your defensive abilities (Rebuke, Saber Ward, Pacify) in the right way, you're damn tough to bring down.  They're great for PvP, but in high end PvE raiding they really don't have a place.  If I were putting together a group for PvE content, I'd take a DPS spec guardian/juggernut over a Sent/Mara every time.  Their DPS is lower, but their utility to switch stances and tank in a pinch is extremely valuable in case your main tank goes down.  This changes, however, if you are adept at monitoring your Centering stacks and associated abilities.

Most people give up on it way too early.  The class doesn't really flesh out until way late...24 to 32, to be completely honest.  And I really wouldn't try PvPing with them until 18.  Some classes develop way early (Sorc/Sage, for example) and Sents/Maras develop way late.  Sorc/Sages develop early, and are extremely powerful with lots of utility, but that evens out in the 30s and onward.  The Sent/Mara is really the yin to the Sorc/Sage yang.  You can make them pretty impotent once you get to about 24 or so, by using your interrupts to block anything they try and do.  That said, it can get a bit spammy at times which leads to players trying to do too much.  What I generally see is that players think that just because they have an ability, it MUST be placed on the toolbar, and they MUST be able to use it in every fight.  At L50, I used MAYBE a toolbar and a half.  The other half was medipaks, sprint, fast travel, and other non combat things.  You set your stance according to tree and forget it.  

The other thing is players instinctively go for damage increases on their talents, but ignore the reductions/refunds.  Having all the damage modifiers in the world doesn't matter if you lack the focus/rage to execute it.   I never had an issue of lack of focus/rage, and by the time I reached L8 or so, I had the base default attack completely off my toolbar and never touch it again.  If you're at such a point that you need your piddly base attack to build focus/rage, you deserve to die.  Further to that, once you get your healer companion, your DPS abilities have really fleshed themselves out and you basically turn into dual saber wielding whirlybird of non stop death.   You have zero downtime, your focus/rage stays halfway full or more, and the only real limiter is your CDs.  Up until I got your my healer companion, the best strategy for PvE was to send in my companion first, then immediately follow them in combat.  I keyed my companion attack to the ` key and just made it part of my attack rotation.  Use your companions as an ability and part of your rotation.  They're really nothing more than that.

I know Sent terminology better, so that's what I'm going to use here:
Combat: More direct damage than anything.  Blade Storm/Rush heavy.  Probably the easiest and most accessible of the three trees.  Ataru form/proc dependent.  
Watchman:  More DoT specific, and built around Cauterize/Merciless Slash.  Somewhat geared towards hit and run tactics and letting your DoTs do the work (which ignore armor mitigation).  Great for sustaining DPS in boss encounters, but also good  for 'splash' or white damage in PvP.  Juyo form/proc dependent.  
Focus:  I only recently started playing much in the Focus tree, but found it pretty satisfying in terms of focus reductions, crit chances, and movement reductions/escapability.  Shii-Cho form/proc dependent.  

!!! DO NOT RE OR TRASH YOUR FIRST SABERS !!!  They hold 4 mods, and you can upgrade them and use them all the way to L50.  That is, if they don't change it in the RC.  It is DAMN hard to get a saber, much less two of them, with the mod capability of the first sabers you get.  

Questions?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 09:38:47 PM by SnakeCharmer »
Surlyboi
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Reply #1 on: November 30, 2011, 09:05:15 PM

So, basically, they break out like rangers did in EQ. Only they don't die in a stiff breeze.  awesome, for real

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
Morfiend
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Reply #2 on: November 30, 2011, 09:08:46 PM

I think my second character is going to be a Sentinel or Marauder. Glad to know they are not as completely gimped as everyone on the forums says.
Trippy
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Reply #3 on: November 30, 2011, 09:12:08 PM

So, basically, they break out like rangers did in EQ. Only they don't die in a stiff breeze.  awesome, for real
Ranger down!
SnakeCharmer
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Reply #4 on: November 30, 2011, 09:12:41 PM

So, basically, they break out like rangers did in EQ. Only they don't die in a stiff breeze.  awesome, for real

Heh.  Never really thought about it that way but...yeah?

But really, the key to Sent/Mara success is using the right ability at the right time and always having a plan.  You have to know your opponent and not just 1, 2, 3, 4, rinse repeat it.  I like to think it's one of the most difficult classes to play well to help sidestep the inherent popularity of it.  That said, I was one of the few people that stuck with Sentinel/Marauder and actively feedbacked on it that wasn't ZOMG BIOWARE SENTS MARA SUCK.  But from L10 to L50, I had no problems breaking into the top 5 DPS in warzones and a pretty high number of kills.

I think my second character is going to be a Sentinel or Marauder. Glad to know they are not as completely gimped as everyone on the forums says.

Well...To be completely honest, because of much of the Sents/Maras inherent if/then reactionary abilities, if you don't play it often, you're probably going to suck or at least be very average.  They're not gimped, they just develop late and they're tough to play well versus the other classes (SI/JC, Trooper/BH).  
Montague
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Reply #5 on: November 30, 2011, 09:16:54 PM

  They're great for PvP, but in high end PvE raiding they really don't have a place. 
Questions?

Planned on playing a Sith Marauder. Did I just pick another goddamn Ret paladin??  Mob

Do you think that once they start getting geared up with "epic" level weapons that they might become more viable? How gear dependent are they?

When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis.

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Surlyboi
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eat a bag of dicks


Reply #6 on: November 30, 2011, 09:22:46 PM

Why am I always drawn to the hard to play characters?

Just once, I'd like to be able to faceroll to victory.

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
Fordel
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Reply #7 on: November 30, 2011, 09:25:45 PM

  They're great for PvP, but in high end PvE raiding they really don't have a place. 
Questions?

Planned on playing a Sith Marauder. Did I just pick another goddamn Ret paladin??  Mob



Yes, yes you did.


I have not PLAYED a Sentinel, but just from watching them in groups, or better yet, watching them try to solo quest and inevitably having to save them again and again...  why so serious?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
SnakeCharmer
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Reply #8 on: November 30, 2011, 09:26:39 PM

 They're great for PvP, but in high end PvE raiding they really don't have a place.
Questions?

Planned on playing a Sith Marauder. Did I just pick another goddamn Ret paladin??  Mob

Do you think that once they start getting geared up with "epic" level weapons that they might become more viable? How gear dependent are they?

Gear is/was an issue, no doubt about it, but mostly in terms of your sabers.  No class is THAT gear dependent, but when you're scratching for every advantage possible, the fact you have to have TWO of them doubles up your needs.  

The thing is, a group didn't have much use for Sents/Maras.  However, in the last balance pass for them they received a pretty significant upgrade for groups with the whole 'Centering' thing.  With Centering, you get stacks to spend on Zen (mostly for your Sent), Transcendence (increases party movement speed by 50 percent and melee/ranged defense by 10 percent for 10 seconds), and Inspiration (increases damage and healing by 15 percent for 15 seconds).  That's pretty freaking huge.  People are still trying to adjust to it - and it makes it ONE MORE THING that Sents/Maras have to monitor.  

All that said, I still somewhat prefer, in a PVE situation, to have the Guardian/Juggernut utility.  But at the same time, my playtime with the Centering mechanic is somewhat limited at this point.  I have a feeling that I'll lean more towards Centering after more playtime in group situations.  I definitely see their value in PvP, especially with Transcendence. 

I have not PLAYED a Sentinel, but just from watching them in groups, or better yet, watching them try to solo quest and inevitably having to save them again and again...  why so serious?

Anecdotal, but most people tended to play Sents/Maras wrong.  They focused too much on using Slash/Vicious Slash instead of Blade Storm/Force Scream, and they tend to totally ignore Master Strike/Ravage entirely.  In your typical trio of standard conned mobs/npcs, Master Strike/Ravage is basically a one hit kill and Blade Storm/Force Scream takes away 50 percent or more of their health.  So, best rotation tended to be Force Leap, Force Sweep, Blade Storm, dead, Master Strike, dead, Strike, Zealous Strike, dead.  That is core rotation for a Jedi Knight in PvE.  Once you get Saber Throw and Zealous Leap, along with cool downs/reductions, Sent/Mara becomes easy mode.  Force Sweep/Smash is also stout as hell as part of your openers.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 09:42:48 PM by SnakeCharmer »
trias_e
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Reply #9 on: November 30, 2011, 09:36:10 PM

I was planning on playing a Sith Marauder.  This post was great, thanks SnakeCharmer.  I love mobile classes, and I love classes that are tough to play well as it keeps things interesting.  So it sounds like I've made a decent choice with this one.  I doubt I'll ever get into end game raiding anyways, so no worries if they aren't fantastic there!
SnakeCharmer
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Reply #10 on: November 30, 2011, 09:48:08 PM

Why am I always drawn to the hard to play characters?

Just once, I'd like to be able to faceroll to victory.

Get to know your audio and visual clues for your if/thens (Riposte, Centering, Combat Trance, Opportune Strike, Pommel Strike, etc) and be able to quickly recognize the difference between stunned, immobilized, rooted, etc.  I'm talking no more than 2 seconds to recognize what is what, and respond accordingly.  It plays fast and can sometimes be a bit overwhelming because you have so many options.  My best advice is to artificially limit your options with what you put on your hotkeys to save yourself from paralysis by analysis.  In warzones, where there is SO much going on, it helps to simplify your strategy and just go with what you know and what you can react to the fastest.  In open world PvP (Nar Shaddaa, Tat, etc), you have a bit more time to react so you can do more.  However,  I tended to slow things down and be more reactive than proactive in what I did, mostly in terms of my interrupts.  I can only imagine how absolutely frustrating it must be to have someone stopping you from doing everything you want to do repeatedly.  Have your Force Kick at the ready; if you see a progress bar?  Force Kick the bastard.  Little to no damage done, but holy hell, when you can stop a Sorc from popping their force bubble and their heals, as well as their lightning strike, they're extremely easy to take down.

That and proper grouping of your abilities on your hotkeys.  Don't be afraid to leave a spot blank, even on your top row.

But yeah, facerolling really isn't an option.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 09:52:08 PM by SnakeCharmer »
Montague
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Reply #11 on: November 30, 2011, 09:49:02 PM

 They're great for PvP, but in high end PvE raiding they really don't have a place.
Questions?

Planned on playing a Sith Marauder. Did I just pick another goddamn Ret paladin??  Mob

Do you think that once they start getting geared up with "epic" level weapons that they might become more viable? How gear dependent are they?

Gear is/was an issue, no doubt about it, but mostly in terms of your sabers.  No class is THAT gear dependent, but when you're scratching for every advantage possible, the fact you have to have TWO of them doubles up your needs.  

The thing is, a group didn't have much use for Sents/Maras.  However, in the last balance pass for them they received a pretty significant upgrade for groups with the whole 'Centering' thing.  With Centering, you get stacks to spend on Zen (mostly for your Sent), Transcendence (increases party movement speed by 50 percent and melee/ranged defense by 10 percent for 10 seconds), and Inspiration (increases damage and healing by 15 percent for 15 seconds).  That's pretty freaking huge.  People are still trying to adjust to it - and it makes it ONE MORE THING that Sents/Maras have to monitor.  

All that said, I still somewhat prefer, in a PVE situation, to have the Guardian/Juggernut utility.  But at the same time, my playtime with the Centering mechanic is somewhat limited at this point.  I have a feeling that I'll lean more towards Centering after more playtime in group situations.

I only got my beta Mara up to 16, but I was already spending a LOT more time looking at my toolbars to see what cooldowns were up instead of at the mob. I didn't try the PVP for that reason, kinda hard to kill someone that way unless they're AFK.

Solo questing I didn't have many problems with. I got the blue saber from BT and knew enough to keep my sabers as upgraded as possible.

Centering sounds interesting, at least that way I could contribute to a raid. I suppose I could go Juggynut but I like the dual saber style, and I dont even know what AC's my guildies are doing yet. NEED AC SWITCHING!

Edit: Last build the mods didn't affect the base DPS of the sabers. Wouldn't green sabers with a sufficiently higher base DPS be better that the old blue ones?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 09:52:21 PM by Montague »

When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis.

I can tell more than 1 fucktard at a time to stfu, have no fears. - WayAbvPar

We all have the God-given right to go to hell our own way.  Don't fuck with God's plan. - MahrinSkel
Fordel
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Reply #12 on: November 30, 2011, 09:55:12 PM

Anecdotal, but most people tended to play Sents/Maras wrong.  They focused too much on using Slash/Vicious Slash instead of Blade Storm/Force Scream, and they tend to totally ignore Master Strike/Ravage entirely.  In your typical trio of standard conned mobs/npcs, Master Strike/Ravage is basically a one hit kill and Blade Storm/Force Scream takes away 50 percent or more of their health.  So, best rotation tended to be Force Leap, Force Sweep, Blade Storm, dead, Master Strike, dead, Strike, Zealous Strike, dead.  That is core rotation for a Jedi Knight in PvE.  Once you get Saber Throw and Zealous Leap, along with cool downs/reductions, Sent/Mara becomes easy mode.  Force Sweep/Smash is also stout as hell as part of your openers.


That seems entirely likely yea. Shit people couldn't figure out the god damn Trooper half the time and the class can be summed up as USE GUN ON MAN!


But like, whenever I saw a fellow Republic dude in trouble, because he was being overwhelmed, or he couldn't handle a gold elite or whatever. It was 9 times out of 10, a dual sabre Jedi.

"You need some help with that?"
'YESPLZ XD XD XD'

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Surlyboi
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eat a bag of dicks


Reply #13 on: November 30, 2011, 10:17:07 PM

Why am I always drawn to the hard to play characters?

Just once, I'd like to be able to faceroll to victory.

Get to know your audio and visual clues for your if/thens (Riposte, Centering, Combat Trance, Opportune Strike, Pommel Strike, etc) and be able to quickly recognize the difference between stunned, immobilized, rooted, etc.  I'm talking no more than 2 seconds to recognize what is what, and respond accordingly.  It plays fast and can sometimes be a bit overwhelming because you have so many options.  My best advice is to artificially limit your options with what you put on your hotkeys to save yourself from paralysis by analysis.  In warzones, where there is SO much going on, it helps to simplify your strategy and just go with what you know and what you can react to the fastest.  In open world PvP (Nar Shaddaa, Tat, etc), you have a bit more time to react so you can do more.  However,  I tended to slow things down and be more reactive than proactive in what I did, mostly in terms of my interrupts.  I can only imagine how absolutely frustrating it must be to have someone stopping you from doing everything you want to do repeatedly.  Have your Force Kick at the ready; if you see a progress bar?  Force Kick the bastard.  Little to no damage done, but holy hell, when you can stop a Sorc from popping their force bubble and their heals, as well as their lightning strike, they're extremely easy to take down.

That and proper grouping of your abilities on your hotkeys.  Don't be afraid to leave a spot blank, even on your top row.

But yeah, facerolling really isn't an option.

Yeah, I figured it would be something like that. Which is cool, because I've always liked that heavily interactive toons. I was consistently one of the highest output damage dealers on Prexus back in the EQ days. I look forward to getting up there again on TOR.

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
DraconianOne
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Reply #14 on: December 01, 2011, 01:20:42 AM

Sentinel (and Marauder) stuff

Thanks for this Snake. It has made me very tempted to try that AC now.

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Lantyssa
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Reply #15 on: December 01, 2011, 04:24:05 AM

Why am I always drawn to the hard to play characters?

Just once, I'd like to be able to faceroll to victory.
Dual sabers, man!  Totally worth it.

A Marauder was my first attempt at playing this class.  I hated it because I was rage starved all the time and I had just come from playing a Sorcerer.  Last beta I tried a Sentinel now that I know the systems better and started loving it in the high teens.  It really is a late bloomer.

Really good tip on the sabers.  Your first real weapon on all characters is worth hanging on to because they're all upgradable.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Lantyssa
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Reply #16 on: December 01, 2011, 04:30:40 AM

But like, whenever I saw a fellow Republic dude in trouble, because he was being overwhelmed, or he couldn't handle a gold elite or whatever. It was 9 times out of 10, a dual sabre Jedi.
If you don't know what you're doing, they suck.  Badly.  If you understand how they work though, they can put out some impressive damage.

Also, for Sentinels, T7 shouldn't be overlooked.  He can hold enough aggro to let you go to town without taking much, if any, damage.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Merusk
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Reply #17 on: December 01, 2011, 04:48:05 AM

Except on .. well hell that's a spoiler. 

I had ... problems.. on the final quest boss.  T7 and I died 2-3 times before I finally worked it out.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
SnakeCharmer
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Reply #18 on: December 01, 2011, 06:38:05 AM

If you can do it, I really recommend changing up your UI for the Sent/Mara...Because of the reaction/speed nature of the class, you need your abilities within fast reach.  You will use 12 plus abilities in bigger boss fights and PvP, especially since they added the centering mechanic and rebuke/retribution.

I actually changed to ESDF movement, then SDFC, and still trying to get used to it. 
S = strafe left
D = forward
F = strafe right
C = backpedal

Primary abilities now go 1-5 (plus shift) and QWERT (plus shift), with anything else going on my Naga.  Also, crafted grenades (AWESOME) are keyed to G and shift G.  I'm not a keyboard turner or clicker.  For different GUI window activation, I change EVERYTHING to control plus <whatever>.  I am notorious for occasionally spazzing out and hitting a bunch of extra keys which opens up a bunch of windows which causes me to freak out and die.

On that note:  The Naga is AWESOME.

Sky
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Reply #19 on: December 01, 2011, 09:55:13 AM

Maybe different for guardians, but I don't know how you could ignore blade storm. Low hanging fruit makes it free after force leap. So all trash fights went: force leap, sweep, storm (for no focus cost).
Der Helm
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Reply #20 on: December 02, 2011, 05:54:58 AM

Damm you for this thread. Now I am not so sure I dislike the Marauder anymore. Do you think he is superior to the Juggernaut in PvP (since that's what I will probably be doing for an "endgame") ?

"I've been done enough around here..."- Signe
SnakeCharmer
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Reply #21 on: December 02, 2011, 06:59:51 AM

Damm you for this thread. Now I am not so sure I dislike the Marauder anymore. Do you think he is superior to the Juggernaut in PvP (since that's what I will probably be doing for an "endgame") ?

I don't know.  It's hard to say really.  The J/G has a bit better survivability, even in a DPS spec, thanks to the heavy armor.  My PvP play with the DPS J/G is somewhat limited, but I did find it less spammy.  The DPS drop off from a S/M to DPS J/G isn't that significant that you would ever miss it.  The ace in the J/G pocket is that through a simple talent respec and regear, you can go from DPS to tank.  The S/M is dps only, it just matters how you do it.  So, if you feel like playing a different style, or your guild needs X instead of Y, you have that option.

All things being equal, the S/M has a targetted 5 percent more DPS advantage over the DPS G/J. 

From an aesthetic side, I think the anims for the single saber J/G flow much better than the dual wield S/M. The S/M can be a bit...I don't know...jerky?  erratic?  in its transition from one attack to the next.  Plus the Guardian heavy armor is the best looking armor in the game, IMO.  I'm not a fan of the huge ass angled pointy shoulder pads the Sith (Warrior, Consular) wear.  And you don't have to worry about outfitting/maintaining two sabers.
trias_e
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Reply #22 on: December 03, 2011, 10:35:54 AM

I'm bored so I came up with some builds.  Let me know what you think.

1)  "Look at my Charge, my Charge is amazing." http://www.torhead.com/calculator/skill#100bIMRMRrfrzZRMbZ0M.1 (PVP)

2)  "Everyday I'm Ravaging, Everyday I'm Massacring."  (Force Screaming too) http://www.torhead.com/calculator/skill#100MZGMbrddMRrsZG.1 (Solo PvE)

3)  "RAAAAAAGE" http://www.torhead.com/calculator/skill#100bcMZZhrRrdrMdGR.1 (PvP)

4)  "Poopsocking to victory"  http://www.torhead.com/calculator/skill#100bIbRrRMcGzZhRr.1 (Raid PvE)

5)  "A wild hybrid appears"  http://www.torhead.com/calculator/skill#100bIrRMRRfZZur0rz.1  (A PvP build based on mobility, vicious slash spamming, and rupture)

6)  "LOL Force Scream"  http://www.torhead.com/calculator/skill#100ZGGrM00rRMcZhMRrz.1  (A silly build which gives a 1 rage cost force scream with good crit and 6 sec cooldown.  This one was PvP oriented but you can make a PvE oriented one too.)
SnakeCharmer
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Reply #23 on: December 03, 2011, 03:53:03 PM

They're not bad.  A few wasted points, but nothing that would seriously hamper you.  You REALLY want to get the top tier ability though.  

The builds I used the most.  May change as I experiment more with Centering after live:
Combat
Watchman
Focus


Personally, I've really grown to love the focus/rage tree because of the healing deficit that Force crush/exhaustion puts them in.  Force crush/exhaustion is unbelieveably awesome in PvP which is what I tend to focus on.  To that point, the three trees play differently, and this is the way I play them.   YMMV.  Keep in mind that I don't care about leaderboard totals (damage, kills, killing blows, healing totals) or how many times I die.  I just want to win the objectives/warzone, target their healers/big time nukes and keep them occupied out of the fight.

Spoilered to avoid wall of text:

« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 06:28:13 PM by SnakeCharmer »
Dark_MadMax
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Reply #24 on: December 05, 2011, 08:20:09 AM

Hmm I only played sent to 18 and sith assassin  to 25 .The stark contrast is - sentinel has only piddly snares for cc and no ranged  attacks. He gets kited to death eternally. SA? - I get CC to wazoo (inlcuding ranged stun and whirlwind), I have 30m ranged finishers which deal quite a bit of damage.  With only 1 cc breaker how can you play melee class in this game
SnakeCharmer
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Reply #25 on: December 05, 2011, 01:01:36 PM

That's part of the problem with Sents and Maras.  You have two get out of jail cards and two gap closers but you don't have both of them on your toolbar until...mid 30's?...if I recall right.  And even then, you have to spec into certain trees to take advantage of them.  So, for a looong ass time, you're without some seriously class defining abilities.  As a S/M you have some decent ranged attacks (heh, for a melee class) such as saber throw (15m), blade storm/rush (10m), zealous leap (1-10m), force leap 10-20m), and a couple others, but by and large you're kinda fucked for a long time.  AND you have to chose a specific tree to have them.  Zealous and Force Leap are only loosely defined as ranged attacks, however...It's a bit of a stretch to call them that, admittedly.

I went back and forth for months with the dev in charge of the JK class, and we just never could see eye to eye.  The thing that most people argued for (more DPS) wasn't what the class needed.  It needed some group utility (got it, Centering) to make it worthwhile to have in your group, something to make it less squishy (got it, Retribution), and some additional means to get out of CC and CC others (somewhat has).

Resolve definately needs work, however....
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Reply #26 on: December 06, 2011, 12:39:39 AM

You could write that piece about knights for almost any class as far as I can tell.

They all seem to need more interesting utility.

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SnakeCharmer
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Reply #27 on: December 06, 2011, 10:28:54 AM

You could write that piece about knights for almost any class as far as I can tell.

They all seem to need more interesting utility.

No, not really.  Before the Centering thing, there was simply no need in taking a Sent or Mara in a group and in fact they were a liability.  Until the 30's you don't get access to the dps buffs and abilities that you need, and beyond that other classes could do DPS and <something else> in a pinch if needed.  All S/Ms can do is DPS, and not that well - until the 30s.  They could do ok, but there was no real need for them when others could do it (DPS) just as well and in some case much better (depending on level).

It's a very late bloomer, and as such didn't get alot of playtime.  Testers played it to 20 or so, compared to Y and 20 or so and said it sucked.  And they were right, but at the same time, they didn't give the class time to flesh out.  But that's more of a problem with the design than the players.   Classes are balanced at 50 and the S/M didn't get much playtime by very many people at 50.  I only had a few weeks at 50, so even my playtime with them at max is somewhat limited.  It can be a frustrating class to play up until you get your healer companion on .  It's at that point the class REALLY becomes fun, an upswing in power begins as a result of your chosen tree really adding some much needed oomph to your abilities.  By the time you get to Hoth, it's a radically different (better) experience.

I almost think the difficulty of the class was done on purpose to keep JKS and SWM numbers down.   Tinfoil Hat
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Reply #28 on: December 12, 2011, 11:50:36 AM

Mr. Snake, how would you describe the differences (in playstyle/feel) between Sentinel/Marauder and Guardian/Juggernaut? Disregarding the obvious major difference of a tank-specced guardian or raiding.

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Reply #29 on: December 12, 2011, 01:26:58 PM

DPS G/J is probably easier, less spammy.  Better toolset in PvP.   Slower paced/less hectic but still packs a punch.  Assuming all things being equal, the DPS G/J does ~5 percent less damage than the S/M.  But it's equal to all other DPS classes/builds.  Still suffers from the same late bloomer problem and pretty much requires you to go to the top of your chosen tree before venturing to the others.   Assuming things remain they were in the last beta I played and live, I would go with this 5/32/4 build.

I am probably going to DPS Guardian on live my main despite knowing Sentinel backwards and forwards.  One saber means less gear to worry about upgrading, better looking armor, better toolset for how I like to play, and the ability to simply respec/regear and be a tank if I ever get tired of DPS.  Can't do that with the Sentinel, which is just DPS, DPS, or DPS.  Better animations, too.  They have some serious oomph to them.  The Sent/Mara anims feel a bit disjointed at times and don't flow as well. 

But I've waffled back and forth so many times it's not even funny.  9 months in beta and I still am not 100 percent sure what I'm going to roll for my main.  Hell, part of me still wants to go IA for my main.  Or smuggler.   swamp poop

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Reply #30 on: December 12, 2011, 02:26:17 PM

Assuming all things being equal, the DPS G/J does ~5 percent less damage than the S/M.  But it's equal to all other DPS classes/builds. 
How do you know this? They've made significant changes since combatlogs were disabled.
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Reply #31 on: December 12, 2011, 02:46:51 PM

Thanks......I guess. I am torn between Sorcerer, Juggernaut and Marauder and your answer makes it even harder. :)

*le sigh*

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Reply #32 on: December 12, 2011, 07:47:10 PM

How do you know this? They've made significant changes since combatlogs were disabled.
Stated design goal, I'd guess.
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Reply #33 on: December 12, 2011, 08:23:40 PM

Everywhere else I've seen them talk about goals, the goal is for all dps specs to be on par.

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sam, an eggplant
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Reply #34 on: December 12, 2011, 09:00:06 PM

They'd have to be monumentally stupid to say "we think spec X should do 5% more damage than spec Y".
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