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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  League of Legends  |  Topic: Patch 130: Volibear (jungle remake!) 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Patch 130: Volibear (jungle remake!)  (Read 12356 times)
Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #35 on: November 29, 2011, 07:44:27 PM

* The definition of a successful gank has changed. Ganks where you waste a flash are just not worth it.

I don't know how much this has really changed, honestly. Whether something is 'worth it' is relative, so what is the trade-off here? You gank primarily to help your teammate dominate their lane. Obviously, the value of the gank has not changed, just the value of the time you are trading for it. Now that time is worth -- if my impression of the changes are correct -- less xp compared to previously if the jungle is full, but more xp on average because the jungle is now empty less often. So there are less places for naturally low-cost ganks (i.e. when you are waiting for your creeps to respawn), but the rest of the time you are losing less because the jungle doesn't provide as much xp overall.

But my only point was that the question is really what missing the xp costs you. If you are rushing to level 6 (eg. Warwick, Nocturne, etc.) then the cost is greater, but if you gank effectively without your ultimate then the trade-off doesn't really seem any greater or less, because your overall xp gain has been fundamentally adjusted downwards anyways -- the thing you are missing out on (xp, gold from jungle creeps) is proportionately the same as it was before, given that you are jungling in the first place. This is especially true if the other team has a jungler as well.

In the end I think most teams would rather have a jungler who is lower level but is successfully ganking and pressuring lanes than a jungler who is absent until mid-game but is a level or two higher. Even a more extreme tradeoff could be worth it if the in-lane impact is high enough -- though not as much as in DOTA, since individual carries cannot carry quite as hard.




Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #36 on: November 29, 2011, 07:59:58 PM


Thinking about it, if the respawn rate is really that much higher then it sounds like this will also open up room for much more complex use of the jungle and the jungler role, since in-lane champions can poach jungle creeps with less impact on the jungler (especially if they are ganking a lot, and so those respawn timers are going unused.) Jungling currently is pretty static, with an early leash and 'come get the blue' being the general extent of creep-sharing.

I think a meta-game where junglers move in and out of lane, or champions switch off to gank, in order to distribute the xp-risk and take full advantage of jungle timers sounds a lot more exciting. Of course, I doubt that will actually happen, but shaking things up to see what sort of new meta-game emerges is to my mind exactly the sort of thing to do to kick off a 'new' season, if you actually want it to feel new.
DLRiley
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Reply #37 on: November 29, 2011, 08:15:25 PM

This hasn't changed the meta game. 2 Solo lanes is better than 1, unless you need to hard counter a nasus or udry lane by putting two top (which isn't even done most of the time since its almost garunteed that both sides will run meta). More incentives to stay in the jungle means less ganks on top and bottom and more faaaaaaaaaarrrming since its A. increase chance of interrupted pushing and B. unless its an already powerful ganker, anything coming around the corner is going to be underleveled. And the more times his gank is bitch slapped by wards, the further behind he becomes and the less his ganks will be effective since he'll hit 6 when everyone else is 8-9.
Thrawn
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Reply #38 on: November 29, 2011, 08:21:19 PM

Well it's all speculation until we all see more of it first hand.  It could be possible that you can just run a strong 2 top and no jungler and win the lane and take tower early because their jungler won't be strong enough to gank you well.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 08:33:49 PM by Thrawn »

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
DLRiley
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Reply #39 on: November 29, 2011, 09:37:56 PM

Ok I just played it.
Before the change jungle pantheon was a decent jungler albeit not the fastest, but didn't need wriggles.
After the change? Fucking rage. Not playing a jungler again, the only way I even able to keep an even level with a feeding top lane was because I was able to help my top get fed. Otherwise, pain and misery and barely scrubbing the barrel eking out an existence from the assist I manage to earn.
Thrawn
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Reply #40 on: November 29, 2011, 10:12:09 PM

I see they gave Gangplank a new character icon which is as always, terrible.

The last few patches feels like Riot has this amazing game they are sick of being so popular so they want to try and quietly start getting people to leave.  Or Valve is paying them off to help Dota 2 out when it launches.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Rasix
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Reply #41 on: November 29, 2011, 10:39:52 PM

Just seems like they're trying to do too much too fast.  Have they always spit out new champs this fast along with reworks like this? 

-Rasix
Thrawn
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Reply #42 on: November 29, 2011, 10:55:16 PM

Just seems like they're trying to do too much too fast.  Have they always spit out new champs this fast along with reworks like this?  

Yes, champs are every few weeks, almost always, no matter what.  Doesn't mater if balance is bad, and champ is rushed and the game is full of bugs.  New champs comes out.  I think maybe once they delayed a champ like a week.  But people will just defend it with the same excuse as always "it's a different part of the team that designs champs".

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
DLRiley
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Reply #43 on: November 29, 2011, 11:25:08 PM

I see they gave Gangplank a new character icon which is as always, terrible.

The last few patches feels like Riot has this amazing game they are sick of being so popular so they want to try and quietly start getting people to leave.  Or Valve is paying them off to help Dota 2 out when it launches.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Its more of an example of unintentional genius then anything done on purpose. They need to hire some ex-wow devs or riots in for some serious bleeding.
Setanta
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Reply #44 on: November 29, 2011, 11:33:26 PM

I see they gave Gangplank a new character icon which is as always, terrible.

The last few patches feels like Riot has this amazing game they are sick of being so popular so they want to try and quietly start getting people to leave.  Or Valve is paying them off to help Dota 2 out when it launches.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Its more of an example of unintentional genius then anything done on purpose. They need to hire some ex-wow devs or riots in for some serious bleeding.

Needs more :CCP: IMO

On that note, I tried to play HoN in the LoL downtime last night - after 5 min of trying to get into a game I gave up.

"No man is an island. But if you strap a bunch of dead guys together it makes a damn fine raft."
Mosesandstick
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Reply #45 on: November 30, 2011, 05:01:31 AM

If they increase the gold/exp of the mobs upon respawn I think this will prove to be a good change.
statisticalfool
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Reply #46 on: November 30, 2011, 08:58:49 AM

Hotfix on the way. Called it.
Malakili
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Reply #47 on: November 30, 2011, 09:00:09 AM

Hotfix on the way. Called it.

Details?
statisticalfool
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Reply #48 on: November 30, 2011, 11:22:03 AM

More gold/xp. Numbers tweaks to make ganking slightly less risky.
pxib
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Reply #49 on: November 30, 2011, 11:48:57 AM

I recommend you folks check out the new Sivir. She has increased range and damage and an absolutely broken chase mechanic. Still awfully fragile, and no longer able to clean up minion waves in record time, but a considerably more capable killer.

if at last you do succeed, never try again
HaemishM
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Reply #50 on: November 30, 2011, 12:09:43 PM

Yeah, I was up against a new Sivir and a Sion in lane last night - I played Talon and had Soraka next to me. We got OWNED hard. The two playing them were good players, it appeared, but still, the number of times Sivir got me as I was running away was pretty bad.

Thrawn
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Reply #51 on: November 30, 2011, 04:01:21 PM

Hotfix on the way. Called it.

You and half the rest of the playerbase.  Ohhhhh, I see.
A couple of Pendragons Twitter posts were even -

Quote
I encourage people to try the patch before judging so harshly - if it truly ends up being a disaster we would change it
Quote
We make our decisions for the health of gameplay - even the controversial ones. We're also not afraid to admit mistakes we make, so fear not

Apparently even Riot realized it was a bad idea.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 04:02:59 PM by Thrawn »

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Mosesandstick
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Reply #52 on: November 30, 2011, 04:13:03 PM

I think calling it a bad idea is overboard. Riot will probably tweak numbers here and there and things will end up working out ok.
Thrawn
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Reply #53 on: November 30, 2011, 04:15:14 PM

I think calling it a bad idea is overboard. Riot will probably tweak numbers here and there and things will end up working out ok.

I guess when I say bad idea, I'm thinking more dumping it right into live with what was obviously minimal testing if they are making changes this quickly.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Mosesandstick
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Reply #54 on: November 30, 2011, 04:30:10 PM

It does seem like it could have used a bit more testing, but knowing Riot they figure the public makes the best test subjects.
HaemishM
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Reply #55 on: November 30, 2011, 04:38:08 PM

They can't have tested it very much, hell they announced it 4 days before they patched it in. I didn't even know they were working on a jungle rework.

Mosesandstick
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Reply #56 on: November 30, 2011, 04:43:28 PM

Jungle rework was announced months ago through dev posts.
Samprimary
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Reply #57 on: November 30, 2011, 04:53:18 PM

New jungle's broken, I'm doing the most absurd shit mid lane with malzahar.

Push lane out, then leave lane and kill my ghouls with my Voidling cast, then get back into lane in time to pop a new wave. Jesus. HOTFIX IS GUARANTEED, AND EVEN THIS WILL NOT FIX THE JUNGLEFUCK
Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #58 on: November 30, 2011, 10:44:23 PM

New jungle's broken, I'm doing the most absurd shit mid lane with malzahar.

Push lane out, then leave lane and kill my ghouls with my Voidling cast, then get back into lane in time to pop a new wave. Jesus. HOTFIX IS GUARANTEED, AND EVEN THIS WILL NOT FIX THE JUNGLEFUCK

See, for me this is an improvement, in that it adds complexity to the game and to how champions interact with the jungle.
jakonovski
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Reply #59 on: December 01, 2011, 01:48:36 AM

New jungle's broken, I'm doing the most absurd shit mid lane with malzahar.

Push lane out, then leave lane and kill my ghouls with my Voidling cast, then get back into lane in time to pop a new wave. Jesus. HOTFIX IS GUARANTEED, AND EVEN THIS WILL NOT FIX THE JUNGLEFUCK

Right from the start? Because you could already do that with Brand some levels in.
DLRiley
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Reply #60 on: December 01, 2011, 01:56:45 AM

2 creeps = wraiths  awesome, for real
Margalis
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Reply #61 on: December 01, 2011, 01:03:37 PM

Right from the start? Because you could already do that with Brand some levels in.

They respawn fast enough now so that you can do it often without disrupting your jungler.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
HaemishM
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Reply #62 on: December 02, 2011, 10:08:47 AM

Did a Jungle game with my Yi build last night. Mobs are certainly easier to kill. I managed to get in some decent ganks in the early to mid game, but my entire team seemed like monkeys randomly pounding on the keyboards for dingfizzleshineys. Had an Alistar/Sion duo that would randomly move from one lane to the other and never seemed focused on anything but dying or knocking the person I was about to gank out of my range with Alistar's charge. Pretty sad when I'm the 2nd best player on a team with a jungling Yi behind a Miss Fortune with a shitty attitude.

I think I did manage level 4 without a death, only 3 healing pots and one run to the red lizard. Jungling is much quicker now.

Slayerik
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Reply #63 on: December 02, 2011, 11:34:41 AM

IDK, I carried my ranked game last night as jungle Udyr. It's different, not horrible but it's hard work to keep up...and this is coming from Phoenix Udyr which melts camps. Slight buff and I bet they call it good.

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
statisticalfool
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Reply #64 on: December 02, 2011, 12:23:20 PM

Yeah, I had a victory with phoenix udyr. I managed to keep up with standard placement (between solo and duo), but I had a lot less margin for doing stuff with the lanes and not falling behind.

Anyway, the hotfix is coming probably today: two changes.

1) more XP in general
2) the big mob in all camps  banks additional gold/xp starting one minute after it spawns (to some unidentified limit). While clearing as fast as possible does get more XP/gold, it means you can go gank and come back and get compensated for it. Also enables bigger counterjungles (if you know they've been ganking, you can steal their banks)

Seems reasonable to me. I'm sure in a week we'll all forget this ever happened.
Slayerik
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Reply #65 on: December 02, 2011, 12:25:19 PM

So how is your Phoenix Udyr these days? You asked for help a while back, or was that someone else? Sorry I never got around to recording stuff....

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
DLRiley
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Reply #66 on: December 03, 2011, 10:47:57 AM

Yeah, I had a victory with phoenix udyr. I managed to keep up with standard placement (between solo and duo), but I had a lot less margin for doing stuff with the lanes and not falling behind.

Anyway, the hotfix is coming probably today: two changes.

1) more XP in general
2) the big mob in all camps  banks additional gold/xp starting one minute after it spawns (to some unidentified limit). While clearing as fast as possible does get more XP/gold, it means you can go gank and come back and get compensated for it. Also enables bigger counterjungles (if you know they've been ganking, you can steal their banks)

Seems reasonable to me. I'm sure in a week we'll all forget this ever happened.

How does phoenix udry work?
statisticalfool
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Reply #67 on: December 03, 2011, 12:54:48 PM

My phoenix is still pretty meh: I'm not having any problem with the general basic fat-fingering any more, I guess my sense of what to do with him is still a little off and when to gank/run in is still pretty bad. It's a lot easier with Skarner, where it's just like: "ult up? time for super gank!"

I'll record a game once I get my new compy, and see how that goes.

That said, I like Skarner enough that I may just forget Udyr.

Slayerik
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Reply #68 on: December 09, 2011, 10:22:32 AM

I am going to start messing with jungle gragas. I think his ult will make for sick ganks, and his AOE is strong to really do some jungle clearing. Since he has a built in steriod/mana regen/health regen , I really think this could work. Then again, I did say that about my horrible jungle cho build :)

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
Rasix
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Reply #69 on: December 09, 2011, 10:56:25 AM

Don't fuck up your barrel, people will hate you.   Seems like your ganks outside of your ult being up would be a little weak.  Fatman slam does have a slow component, however.  But as the jungle scales up in HP late game, your AE won't be as impressive unless you can manage to stick to a pretty strict AP build.  

I'm skeptical, but give it a shot.  

edit: Then again, when I'm Grag I steal a lot of wraiths, get my own blue, and pump my own gas.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 11:03:34 AM by Rasix »

-Rasix
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