MMO Subs are a dead model - John Smedley

[Kageru]

No, controlling the cost of gold was already achieved through near universal BoE and daily quests, in case you were serious.

Pay to win is just another lever. It will extract revenue, it will discourage free players if it gets too extreme. But since they're probably a churning population anyway it might be worth it.

[Dren]

Not really. You get f2p with a time limit (eg. a trial) so you can explore the game, generally offered shortly after the initial rush has stabilized.

Were you referencing a specific game?  You didn't indicate it.  Otherwise, this is false for many F2P games.  So far I've tried about 5 in the last month and all of them allow you to play indefinitely.  There is no "time limit."

The limit is only how long you enjoy the game without the advantages paying for content gives you.  THAT is completely different game to game and depends on your personal tolerance level.  The more min/max you are, the lower your threshold.  The more explorer you are, the higher your threshold.

[Shatter]

Not really. You get f2p with a time limit (eg. a trial) so you can explore the game, generally offered shortly after the initial rush has stabilized.

Were you referencing a specific game?  You didn't indicate it.  Otherwise, this is false for many F2P games.  So far I've tried about 5 in the last month and all of them allow you to play indefinitely.  There is no "time limit."

The limit is only how long you enjoy the game without the advantages paying for content gives you.  THAT is completely different game to game and depends on your personal tolerance level.  The more min/max you are, the lower your threshold.  The more explorer you are, the higher your threshold.

Think hes confusing free trial with F2P

[Lantyssa]

The problem is, there is increasingly no one name that can define how a game is set up.  Not even the original sub-only games are that anymore.

[Shatter]

We really need more categories. 

Pay to play
Pay to play + shop with fun nicknacks
Pay to play + shop which you need to buy sht from because they put your balls in a vice even though you pay a monthly sub(cough Aion)
Free to play but screwing you slowly in certain aspects of the game(ie content, mounts, etc)
Free to play + shop with fun nicknacks
Free to play + shop which you need to buy sht from because they put your balls in a vice and leveling is about as much fun as a bike without a seat without their shop xp pots

Did I miss any?

[Ingmar]

Yeah, you should probably break pay to play down into ones where you buy the box (Guild Wars) and ones where you buy the box and pay a sub (WoW etc.)

[Dren]

Think hes confusing free trial with F2P

Probably, but it is easy.  EQ2 does both.  Play for limited time on subscription based servers OR play for free on F2P servers!  If you choose to start paying on F2P servers, you are stuck playing with F2P players FOREVER even though you are paying as much as subscribers on the subscription based server who have to decide to pay a sub after 7-10 days or.....

Yeah, very straight forward and easy to understand...

[Kageru]

I was responding to the "if you don't pay, you don't get any access" comment on subscription games. In fact trials are free2play but time limited and that limit can easily be extended to something like a WoW level limit or a freemium model "end-game and advanced content" limit. There's no hard boundary.

[Sky]

Pay to play + shop which you need to buy sht from because they put your balls in a vice even though you pay a monthly sub(cough Aion)


Free to play + shop which you need to buy sht from because they put your balls in a vice and leveling is about as much fun as a bike without a seat without their shop xp pots

I believe those are known as "knick knack paddy whacks".

Now, give the dog a bone.

[Chimpy]

Are you going to come rolling home soon, old man?

 

[Ice Cream Emperor]

I'm just kind of baffled that none of these crazy huge-money high-risk must-beat-WoW-or-we-lose titles haven't just started bundling more than one free month with the box. If you give yourself two or three months after launch before it's make-or-break time instead of one, then maybe you will get away with launching way the fuck too early. Your initial money-grab goes down, for sure, but it seems like a good enough tradeoff that I'm surprised nobody has tried it.

[Speedy Cerviche]

You may as well push back release then and fix up your game some more instead of blowing your release hype wad. A lot of people don't want to play a shitty game, even if it's free. Releasing early and getting that reputation as a shit game just digs yourself a hole to climb out of.

[Sky]

What if a game is not fully done but still awesome?

 

[Speedy Cerviche]

Well I guess you could release if with that 2 month free subs gimmick and that could help generate buzz/splash. It could get somewhat pricey though, skipping out on a month of subs if you sell 100,000 units will cost you 1.5 million $. Is your free month marketing gimmick worth 1 mill 5?? That could buy you A LOT of banner ads, google traffic, or whatever the marketing kids are doing these days.

[Nebu]

What if a game is not fully done but still awesome?

 

You mean like Rift?   

[Rokal]

I'm just kind of baffled that none of these crazy huge-money high-risk must-beat-WoW-or-we-lose titles haven't just started bundling more than one free month with the box. If you give yourself two or three months after launch before it's make-or-break time instead of one, then maybe you will get away with launching way the fuck too early. Your initial money-grab goes down, for sure, but it seems like a good enough tradeoff that I'm surprised nobody has tried it.

I just don't see what the point would be. People would be more tempted to buy the game knowing they were getting more time, but none of these MMOs have problems with initial box sales. People usually get bored and run out of things they want to do after the first 30-90 days. The only thing this would have accomplished with Rift was Trion getting $0 in sub fees from a lot of players instead of $30.

It would help if your game launched in a broken state that you expected to fix within 90 days, but if you're launching in a broken state you're already fucked.

[Ingmar]

I suspect that they would lose a lot more of the people who automatically sub for the first 3/6 months that way than they would gain in long term retention.

[sinij]

Who killed videogames?

Tim Rogers take on MT in social (smartphone) games.

Choice quotes:

About The Sims Social: In other words: we play, so that our friends are not miserable. We suffer, so that others might not suffer. We pay money so that we might suffer less. What gruesome psychomathematiconomist devised this heart-labyrinth? Or: now you know what happens to psychiatrists who are decommissioned because they break the doctor-patient confidentiality rule.

An ex-drug-dealer (now a video game industry powerbrain) once told me that he doesn’t understand why people buy heroin. The heroin peddler isn’t even doing heroin. Like him or not, when you hear Cliff Bleszinski talk about Gears of War, he sounds — in a good way — like a weed dealer. He sounds like he endorses what he is selling. When you’re in a room with social games guys, the “I never touch the stuff” attitude is so thick you’ll need a box cutter to breathe properly.

When a psychiatrist looks at videogames, he’s not going to appreciate the fineness of the sprite art; he’s going to find the elements that get stuck in the brain. We’re all Stockholm-syndromed, halfway in love with videogames; we grew up learning that videogames were awesome, and the makers of the most awesome of all games grew old constantly trying to “recapture” the “roots” of their former glory. The thing is one thing can affect a million people a billion different ways. You can’t trace glory back to one root. So through sequels and remakes and demakes and remakuels demakuels and reboots and rebooquels, time and again, the makers of games presume that each element of a thing is some different someone’s favorite part of that thing. The hardcore gamers, in their fondest appreciation, have left clues littered here and everywhere, pointing even the most uninitiated toward the universal facets of electronic games that most directly touch our brains — that here are things whose chief criticism is that they are “repetitive” and “anti-social” gives the clever people the idea to remedy one thing while amplifying the other. Some clever people picked up the trail . . . and a few years later, here we are, each of us a different kleptomaniac in a different candy shop. God help us; Shigeru Miyamoto help us all.

TL;DR Design new user experience to be as addicting as possible, then exploit player with every possible psychological trick to spend money.

[Mrbloodworth]

Well, yeah. Money is involved. Its not freeware anymore.

[Ratman_tf]

Well, yeah. Money is involved. Its not freeware anymore.

 

[sinij]

Mrbloodworth, I have nothing to talk to with people like you. In the future please let us know about any title you work on so I can avoid it, you soulless corporate cog.

[tgr]

Mrbloodworth, I have nothing to talk to with people like you. In the future please let us know about any title you work on so I can avoid it, you soulless corporate cog.

the fuck?

I mean, seriously, what the fuck?

[Stabs]

*sniff*

RIP freeware. 

[Mrbloodworth]

I always wanted to be corporate! Does this come with a raise, up from zero?

[sinij]

Mrbloodworth, I have nothing to talk to with people like you. In the future please let us know about any title you work on so I can avoid it, you soulless corporate cog.

the fuck?

I mean, seriously, what the fuck?

When I read the article from the industry insider I was appalled, and I knew about most of these dirty tricks. It is still disgusting that someone would go to such extremes to squeeze money out of people while pretending to be free. It isn't right, it isn't free and people calculating the best way to allow kids to steal most from his parent's CC to pay for worthless pixels or how to swindle customers with gambling addictions for tens of thousands dollars before they understand what is going on should be held accountable, the very least for hijacking and tainting our gaming past time and turning it into a gambling pixel whorehouse.  Bloodworth's "so what" reaction to this is equally appalling.

[Mrbloodworth]

That wasn't a so what. Also, Tim Rogers sounds crazy, thats like a forum post gone "mainstream" there. You can see more analysis just like it on MMORPG.com. Pick any game from 1995 and on.

It reads like they pine for the freeware era. Hes also confusing ( IMO ) the need to design compelling elements into games, with some notion of cheating people out of money. Basic progression or or hooks that have been present in just about every game ever ( The "one more turn"/level/quest ), are now evil agendas to sap your wallet ( By reason of avoidance ). Granted there are some games that do this ( Mainly the "social" facebook type ), but not overwhelmingly, and not as brashly as its painted there.

I see this hysteria as a natural progression to the Ala-cart systems beginning to evolve. Just like when freeware games started getting box prices. There are lots of F2p games that are well crafted, fair, and nicely priced. Some will not acknowledge this. I also have a really hard time making the connection with facebook/"Social" apps, and how they are just like say... The next gears of war. Thats a leap I just cant make personally. You also cut off a really important part of his conclusion.

I'm still waiting for my key to the executive bathroom.

[Sky]

It isn't right

Aren't you just so cute!

[Paelos]

F2P games and getting nickel and dimed to death slowly are a condition of the economic times. These types of models have no long-term future in an economic upswing.

Once people have disposable income, they will want things all-inclusive since nobody likes constantly paying for small things over and over again.

[Dren]

Darn NFL anyway.  They keep having games I want to watch every weekend.  That keeps me coming back for more until I see all the season content.  I have to pay a monthly fee to have access to the best channels that carry the games.  If I want to see them live I pay the monthly fee and a micro-trans to be at the stadium!  Then they want me to actually buy sweatshirts, coffee mugs, and hats (HATS!) with my team's official NFL emblems on them!  I mean, how can I really be called a fan unless I buy these things??  Then there are these little side games called Fantasy Football that require even more money!  This addictive system and micropayments are killing me!

[Paelos]

Darn NFL anyway.  They keep having games I want to watch every weekend.  That keeps me coming back for more until I see all the season content.  I have to pay a monthly fee to have access to the best channels that carry the games.  If I want to see them live I pay the monthly fee and a micro-trans to be at the stadium!  Then they want me to actually buy sweatshirts, coffee mugs, and hats (HATS!) with my team's official NFL emblems on them!  I mean, how can I really be called a fan unless I buy these things??  Then there are these little side games called Fantasy Football that require even more money!  This addictive system and micropayments are killing me!

The analogy is more apt if you got to watch the NFL game for free, but you had to pay extra per month to unlock viewing inside the 20. Otherwise it goes to a gamecast dot on you TV screen.

[Merusk]

Sounds like every Bengals home game this year. 

[tgr]

When I read the article from the industry insider I was appalled, and I knew about most of these dirty tricks. It is still disgusting that someone would go to such extremes to squeeze money out of people while pretending to be free. It isn't right, it isn't free and people calculating the best way to allow kids to steal most from his parent's CC to pay for worthless pixels or how to swindle customers with gambling addictions for tens of thousands dollars before they understand what is going on should be held accountable, the very least for hijacking and tainting our gaming past time and turning it into a gambling pixel whorehouse.  Bloodworth's "so what" reaction to this is equally appalling.

While there are tons of "free to play" games for, say, the ipad etc which are nothing but a trap for kids (we had an article in the newspaper just a few days ago where a kid used 24k NOK on berries in a game, which was refunded iirc), there's a huge gap between actively making that, and saying "well, money is involved, of course they'll want to actually earn money off of what they do". One which doesn't really warrant the automatic "BEGONE SATAN THOU ART EBUL" post which you just spewed forth.

[sinij]

One which doesn't really warrant the automatic "BEGONE SATAN THOU ART EBUL" post which you just spewed forth.

We already established that there are "bad people" designing MTs, in the worst possible way, stopping at nothing to scam a quick buck. Turning these "games" into gambling and addiction traps, minus regulation and adults-only clause you expect to see from something that dangerous.
We have seen has-been old hand of the industry saying what boils down to "wouldn't it be great if we could do the same?"

Logical answer is: Fuck No! BEGONE SATAN.

Unfortunately, mmorpg crowd is not properly educated what MT-based "Free"2Play design is, failing to realize that even further generic-anizing and low production values are necessary element of F2P design. They make low production value, derivative addiction traps and flood the market with it to make money. Why do we need this in mmos?

MT design ideology is to keep most players annoyed for longest possible time before they quit in frustration by designing barely-tolerable experience to encourage MT use to get around cock blocks .

[Rokal]

In this thread, Sinij incorrectly argues that exploitative games like Farmville are still showing growth and are the future of the industry while completely ignoring that exploitative gameplay design was the core of the industry in the 80s. Intentionally obnoxious game design intended to suck small fees from players who were bad or lazy, sound familiar? It wasn't sustainable then and it isn't sustainable now.

You're still dismissing the entire business model while ignoring games that aren't doing this and are still successful. Meanwhile, we gave examples of games that did try this approach outside of 'social gaming' and completely flopped because of it.

You're right though. Exploitative free-to-play is inevitable, the world is out to get you, and video games were much better when you were a kid and were dumping quarters into Ghosts 'n Goblins.

[Xuri]

I grew up doing all my gaming on C64 and NES, and then Amiga, and never dumped quarters into arcade gaming machines outside of amusement parks, and I agree with sinij. Sort of.