f13.net forums - Invention....Anyone with Experience or Recommendations?

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July 20, 2025, 05:42:09 AM

we're back, baby

So I have an idea for a consumer product that could make a lot of money. I am extremely cautious about giving out information on it, and all I'll say here is it is for babies. It was something that had come to me in real life need, and the very few people close to me that I have talked to instantly recognized the marketability and potential.

So, I have done some standard google research on steps to proceed, and they seem reasonable. I have drawn many sketches, came up with a brand name and checked for patents and trademarks relating to it (fortunately, they are all open). Problem is needing a patent (and possibly trademark after), and putting a lot of money into this that I don't have. Building prototypes, attorney fees, etc etc.

In my mind, every day that goes by without trying to accomplish something on this is another day that someone else could think of it. That doesn't change the fact that I'm stuck. I won't just give away my idea and watch someone else get rich off it.

Any advice on trying to procure some capital? Anyone have a ton of money burning a hole in their pocket? :)

I know everyone thinks their idea is the greatest ever, but I just don't see how this one could fail. I guess the first step would probably save up the 3 grand for a patent. With 5 kids, I don't see it happening too quick. How do I get unstuck?!?

Anyway, I'm not expecting much to come from this thread just hoping for some external ideas/thoughts. Thanks my f13 buddies....

Hahah, yeah I heard of that show.

Disclaimer if I were to apply:

"By making an email submission, you acknowledge and agree that you are making a submission solely for purposes of being considered by Mark Burnett Productions, Inc., Sony Pictures Television, Inc., American Broadcasting Companies, Inc. and their respective affiliated or related entities (collectively "Shark Tank Entities") to be a participant on Shark Tank and will not receive any compensation or credit for making a submission. BY MAKING AN EMAIL SUBMISSION, YOU ARE ACCEPTING AND AGREEING TO THE ABC.COM TERMS OF USE . You understand that your email submission is not confidential nor submitted in confidence or trust and no confidential or fiduciary relationship is intended or created by making an email submission. You understand that the Shark Tank Entities are diversified companies who may possess or come to possess information similar or identical to information contained in your email submission, and you agree that any such similarity or identity shall not give rise to any claim or entitlement, whether for compensation, credit or otherwise. By making an email submission, you hereby release the Shark Tank Entities and their respective directors, officers, shareholders, employees, and licensees from any and all claims relating to your email submission, including without limitation arising from the risk of misdirection or misdelivery of your email."

I guess maybe if you got a patent first and trademark...I sure as hell aren't sending it all willy nilly!

Your best bet is likely friends and family as you are (naturally) reluctant to give details on the idea.

I'd go to your local SBDC (small business development center) and do some networking there (and probably take some classes, though the ones at my SBDC were pretty blah for me, though I think they are more geared towards physical businesses rather than software development businesses)

*edit*

Actually another thing is to realize that your issue right now is *NOT* a capital issue. Getting capital won't do you much good because you won't have any way to use it, and investors will see that and won't give you capital (and probably dismiss you).

The best course of action is first of all to look into patenting the invention, so that you have exclusive rights to it (then in that case it doesn't matter if someone comes up with the idea before you can go to implementation, if you are granted the patent then it's still your idea as far as i know (IANAL)).

After you have a patent, your next course of action is most likely to research and network with distribution and manufacturing companies to create and sell the product for you. Dealing with the whole manufacturing -> retail distribution channel yourself will set you up for failure, and it will be cheaper in the long run.

The SBDC should be able to guide you through the process of doing all of these.

Find a lawyer who is a friend of yours, and tell him that you're willing to make him a partner in the deal if he performs the legal services necessary for your to get the idea in the process.

Quote from: Slayerik on August 04, 2011, 09:11:55 AM

I guess maybe if you got a patent first and trademark...I sure as hell aren't sending it all willy nilly!

Yes you would want to have filed for a patent and made a prototype before applying for the show at least. Trademark probably isn't quite so important as I've seen the sharks recommend better names for the products or the company. They also don't typically have people on that just have a "raw" idea -- there's usually some amount of sales already for the products being presented.

In your case you'll need to figure out how to get the money you need. Borrowing from friends and family may be an option. In the good old days you could apply for a small business loan. Another option you commonly see in the tech startup world is to partner with somebody you trust who either has the money or knows better how to get it.

Quote from: Slayerik on August 04, 2011, 08:33:50 AM

I'll say here is it is for babies.

Is it a law suit generator! Seriously I'm surprised there is a single product on the market for children under 5. If they can pull the bumbo chair because some dumbass parent thought bumbo=babysitter what chance does anyone have?

The bottom line is if you want to do it, then do it.

Submit patent and trademark stuff first. The internet will tell you how. The fixed fee legal websites will also help.

Find a factory that can make a protoype. They are on the internet. Go meet them, don't just do it by email.

Once you make a prototype, the factory can give you a sense of cost. Have 100 made. Take them to a store in your area and find the manager. If you agree to take back anything that doesn't sell, you should get some shelf space. Check in with the manager often so he knows you are serious.

The biggest impediment to getting store placement will be convincing the manager you are serious. If you do it half-assed, that will become apparent to him quickly.

How do I know this? I have had two friends do it. One had hats and wallets made with logos from the early 1900s and another did fancy women's shoes (which she had made in Italy). They didn't retire rich, but they made money on the side of their real job.

You just have to decide to do it and use common sense. Don;t invest any money you aren't willing to lose. Most of the startup investment will be your time.

Also if you're serious about selling it, get a CPA for tax purposes.

Quote from: Slayerik on August 04, 2011, 08:33:50 AM

I am extremely cautious about giving out information on it, and all I'll say here is it is for babies.

"You know... for kids!"

I think I may bring in a very motivated, intelligent friend of mine that is the type of guy that has always been looking for that big moneymaking idea. Maybe with my ideas, and his motivation (and capital) we could look at getting this off the ground. Strangely, I hadn't even considered him until now. Thanks f13 for getting the gears turning. Hopefully, in a couple of years I can come back with a success story.

You can always try to crowd-source funding on Kickstarter.

A close friend of mine is at an IP firm, PM me if you want me to try and give you a hand on the attorney end of things.

Quote from: Slayerik on August 04, 2011, 11:28:59 AM

1 - Do not agree to a 50/50 partnership. I won't go into the reasons but don't do it.
2 - Do not agree to be the general partner. Again, trust me.
3 - Do not hand over financial control to anyone. Inspect all reports. Keep copies of all records. Have bank accounts in the company name, not your own.
4 - Hire a CPA. Do not just hand everything to them and hope for the best. Read your shit.
5 - Make sure to establish your partnership IN WRITING WITH THE PROFIT/LOSS % INDICATED. Otherwise, the default in most states in a general partnership with 50/50 control. That's the worst.

My girlfriend is a CPA, actually. So that's pretty cool.

Kickstarter is a cool site, thanks for that.

Have you considered credit cards? A significant portion of start-ups get through that initial prototyping phase maxing out CCs and borrowing against equity in their home(if any). Once you have a working prototype you might consider looking into angel investors. They typically will do first round financing in situations where most venture capital firms would laugh you out of the building. VCs will also want you to give up a significant amount of interest in the company, many times to the point where the entrepreneur doesn't even have a majority stake.

Angel investors won't give you the time of day if there's no prototype, however. Get your girlfriend to help you build some financial projections. Estimate sales based on a number of scenarios(favorable and not), estimate costs, find the break-even point, etc. Basically, you'll need pro forma balance sheet, income statement, and cash flows. Don't worry about it showing you running a loss because all startups run a loss in the first few years. In the early phases of a startup it's all about cash flow rather than the bottom line. All of these things are necessary to convince someone to throw money at you, but none of it will matter if you can't sell yourself as the entrepreneur. Bad ass presentations and projections you obviously put work into will help immensely. I don't know what area you live in but there are quite a few associations of angel investors around the country that will take a group presentation, and if they decide to invest the money comes from a number of the investors in order to spread out the risk.

Also, if you're trying to decide what to do first, I would suggest spending your cash on a prototype first and a patent later. Once you (hopefully) come to market people are going to make knock-offs no matter what you do. But having a prototype and solid pro formas will open up doors for you that a patent won't. Besides, if you get some funding you'll have plenty to file. Edit: Patents are useless unless you have the money to actually hire expensive lawyers to enforce your patent.

Everything paelos said is spot on also. Any agreement to share equity between you and whoever needs to be typed up in legalese and fancy words and notarized or whatever. If you are bringing someone on board you need to actually form a partnership or a limited liability partnership(if your state has them), and all the details need to be spelled out. This includes your girlfriend if she is going to be working on the project. Alternatively you could just go ahead and incorporate because there are some legal hassles with partnerships. (If one person leaves the partnership, the partnership ceases to exist and you have to make a new one. All of the previous partnerships contracts become useless and you've got to renegotiate things. If there's a lot of money involved people can get vicious and it's not pretty.

Edit: Keep track of all of your personal investments in the company and set it up as you are loaning the company money. You absolutely have to keep a separation between your finances and that of the company. Reason being, if your invention accidentally murders a couple babies and your assets are comingled then you can be sued for your personal assets rather than just the assets of the company.

Generally, execution gets funding, not ideas. Everybody has ideas. Some people have really good ideas. People who get funded tend to be people actually making things.

Of course, if you really do have some incredible, nobody-else-has-thought-of-this-but-wow-it'll-change-the-world sort of idea, getting a patent filed might make sense too.

Quote from: Logain on August 04, 2011, 01:26:43 PM

Edit: Keep track of all of your personal investments in the company and set it up as you are loaning the company money. You absolutely have to keep a separation between your finances and that of the company. Reason being, if your invention accidentally murders a couple babies and your assets are comingled then you can be sued for your personal assets rather than just the assets of the company.

This is true for more reasons than just legal. Any losses and income you get from the partnership can only be distributed to you personally if you can prove you have equity basis in that venture. The IRS can and will fuck you hard if you can't prove this and have losses in the first years of a startup.

Quote from: Paelos on August 04, 2011, 11:58:13 AM

Quote from: Slayerik on August 04, 2011, 11:28:59 AM

1 - Do not agree to a 50/50 partnership. I won't go into the reasons but don't do it.

50/50 can work but it requires the right partner which might not exist for you and your project. Taylor Guitars is an example of such an arrangement and they are doing really well.

Having a clear way to break ties in decision making is definitely valuable in a business situation. Most likely there are going to be some hard decisions at some point along the way and complete agreement may not be possible. Odd number of founders or board members or uneven split of ownership or equity seems like the typical approach.

Do more market research and a basic business plan before committing any money. No point having a prototype if you don't know how you plan to make money off it and etc.

It doesn't seem like anyone mentioned it, so I'll just throw it out there....

The likelihood of whatever your idea is, making you any money at at all is less than 1%... Even if it's the best idea in the world. Even if you invented flying cars or robot sex or something. Doesn't matter.
The likelihood of the process of getting it to market totally fucking destroying your life, marriage, childrens future, hopes and dreams, etc... Is about 99.9%
and the 2 are not mutually exclusive. You can make money and it could still destroy your life.

I've invented some stuff in the past... Tools, even a new kind of guitar amp once... but I just post the shit to forums or once I sent it in to a magazine and won a 5 year subscription.. I just make them public domain. My life's fine and the inventor lottery ticket's odds are just too damn low and the price of the ticket is way way to high.

Where are you getting these statistics? Of course he won't make any money if he doesn't even try in the first place due to a fear of failure. There is no payoff without a certain level of risk. 99% chance of failure and 99.9% chance of fucking up lives are grossly overstated.

Quote from: Logain on August 05, 2011, 05:46:19 AM

Even if they are realistic, people tend to be passionate about their ideas and as a result generally are not able judge the worth of their own invention in a non biased manner.

So as long as we are throwing made up statistics around I'd say 75% of people who go through this process are of the circle on a napkin "you know for kids!" variety and as such are pretty much doomed from the get go. If you have a well defined idea (even better a prototype) for a real product then you would be in the 25% group (ie not in the aborted in the napkin plan phase), even then half the guys in the 25% group have their head up their ass and are sitting on some crappy jump to conclusions mat prototype.

Even if you successfully patent and produce a real useful product it takes serious luck, knowledge, dedication, time and cash to make money off of it.

As far as partnerships go, if I had a good idea and someone came up to me and said they would fund me creating a prototype and they would take over from there, I'd be more than happy to hand over 80% of the ownership. Obviously I would not do this for some life's work type of invention but I'd do it all day long for some widget that took 3-6 months of work to get right. I would also need to somehow protect against the "LoTR movie didn't make a profit shenanigans" but the bottom line is talk is cheap and ideas are a dime a dozen.

Bag o' glass isn't really for babies.

I'm in meetings a few times a year with our patent lawyers and they tell all sorts of horror stories about people trying to patent a fantastic idea and running out of money midway through. It takes 10-20k to actually get a patent. If you don't have that money, don't even bother.

Meanwhile, I can patent a "disk that farts butterflies" here without batting an eye.

Screw it, Just make batch of em and see if you can sell them all for a decent profit. Keep in depth documentation of everything like a project log of you building the prototype, your orders to get the initial run of x manufactured, your receipts for y sales. If it becomes wildly successful patent it then, if someone else manages to patent it at least you have some evidence to dispute their patent's claims of originality.

The major risks (beyond what you put into it) are that someone has already patented it and they come after you with a vengeance or someone manages to kill their kid with your product and comes after you with a vengeance. Both of these might be mostly mitigated by creating an LLC or some other type of incorporation.

Quote from: Salamok on August 05, 2011, 08:54:29 AM

Even if you successfully patent and produce a real useful product it takes serious luck, knowledge, dedication, time and cash to make money off of it.

I was pretty much thinking this before I posted originally. It seems like such an uphill battle, even with a legitimate concept and large market. I am a realist. The chances of me retiring off this are slim to none. But I think the idea is home run - enough so where I will probably regret not pursuing it as far as I can (yes, I know everyone thinks their idea is - this is no jump to conclusions board I'll tell ya that!). I am meeting with my friend tonight concerning this, and I think he will be a good litmus test of the idea (he is also a father of twins). If he is truly interested in the idea, we can come up with 10-20k for our patent.

It's consuming me. I genuinely excited by it. The only thing stopping me from making this a success is me (and thousands of dollars, a full time job, and 5 kids...excuses excuses)!

Quote from: bhodi on August 05, 2011, 08:54:49 AM

BTW, thanks for the reality check on patent costs. You see a number when looking up info, and sometimes it is completely off!

Your friends are not good market research. I hope you go a bit further than asking them when they think before you spend money on this.

Start an LLC and approach the invention as you're an already existing business. That'll open up SBA avenues (that are federally subsidized and therefore WAY less risk for an investor) and possibly govt. grants. Many of said grants only require a proposal and no real working prototype of any kind.

So basically, the days of closet-invention are gone. You need to have an established entity first, ideally with at least some credit developed and a solid business plan. Bear in mind, 99% of the "established" portion is just a load of bullshit you can do for free. Website, phone, ppoint presentations, business cards, etc. That kind of stuff goes a LONG way when trying to kick something off. Set it up as a simple think-tank, engineering firm, and/or holding company if you need to.

Of course, try to find a young I.P. lawyer to help you out. Ideally someone fresh out of college and full of idealism. While they work on the patent process, you can be canvassing for improvements and fundage, specifically seminars/conventions that pertain to the area you're targeting.

I'd say the biggest hurdle for most inventors is the social one. If you can deal with people and network effectively you can sell air and make a buck. Since your area seems to be infants, I'd suggest spending some time in D.C. (the absolute BEST place to startup anything in the country really) and brown-nosing some people from NHS or some such. Or whatever the fuck agency handles children.

Quote from: Slayerik on August 05, 2011, 12:36:17 PM

Quote from: Salamok on August 05, 2011, 08:54:29 AM

Even if you successfully patent and produce a real useful product it takes serious luck, knowledge, dedication, time and cash to make money off of it.

Im sorry but there has been some really bad business advice in this thread.

1. File for articles of incorporation in your state. As of right now simply make it a LLC for simplicities sake. There are other corporation types, as well as, sole proprietorships and S corps etc etc. What type you end up as is mostly depending on your CPA's advice for minimizing your tax exposure. For right now an LLC works fine to get yourself off and running. This can be done via computer for a few bucks with the Secretary of State for your state.

2. Once you have a licensed coporation, file for EIN (employer identification number, business version of SSN) with the federal government, business license with the state, business license with the city. MOST if not all other companies are going to want these numbers to ensure you are a legit business and deal with you at the wholesale level to buy your supplies from.

3. Start writing the business plan. This will literally take you a year or more if its good. Just like a thesis you are going to tweak it again and again. Have someone who has ACTUALLY opened a business read through it. The local Small Business Development Center is useless for this. They can give some basic advice but 99% chance none of the bureaucrats sitting in that office have ever actually opened a business and run one successfully. You need to include everything from R&D funding, to development costs, to prototype production, to marketing, to initial office space. However cheaply you think you can do it? You will probably need to double or triple your expected costs to be safe.

4. Depending on the nature of your product start looking for local fabrication vendors to produce prototypes. Do NOT get outside of your local area. You start looking overseas initially and being a start up they will simply rip you off, steal your idea and you will never hear from them again. At this point all you need are basic prototypes to start testing and making revisions of. Most of this you should be able to produce yourself with basic molds and models or through sewing or have sourced locally. Most people I know who start as boutique manufacturers/vendors start making/sewing their first products in their garage and source things they cant make locally or maybe within their region. The more you can do yourself the lower your initial production costs.

5. File for a 12 month provisional patent. This will cover you for twelve months. IF YOU NEED IT. Unless you have something truly remarkable and new, 7 out of 10 times you dont need a patent anyway. Another baby carrier? Another snuggle blanket? Is your item truly unique? If not your simply going to pay some lawyer who will happily take your money and then fail to receive a non-provisional patent. Starting with a provisional patent its cheaper and you can do it yourself with out hiring a lawyer.

6. Dont offer ANYONE equity in your company at this point. Everything I have outlined here isnt going to cost you a whole lot. Once you have gotten licensed as an LLC you can open a bank account in your business' name and get a credit card in the name as well. You can use that for initial funding. Nothing I have listed above will take all that much in cash. Even if someone agrees to give you money, simply agree to pay them back with interest. Dont start selling portions of your business when you dont have any idea where you will end up. Most states and cities have grant programs. Most also business incubation workshops you can use to set up your production in, if your house/garage isnt big enough for your initial needs. Look for local business incubators.

7. Hit a few local stores which offer items with in your market. DONT go to chains (unless they are locally owned) or big box stores. 9 out of 10 times most managers in these places dont really know their own markets and can only stock what corporate tells them to stock. They are simply their to control the minimum wage drones. Go to a local specialty retailer and get their feedback on your prototypes. No they arent going to rip you or your idea off. If they were unscrupulous they would be rich and in corporate, instead they are honest broke local business owners. Based on feedback and testing keep tweeking your prototypes. Once you have them to the final stage (after what will probably include a few revisions, you are ready for the next step).

8. Tradeshows. Even with just a good idea and some rough prototypes you can start hitting the local or regional trade shows for your product market. I just got back from the biggest international trade show of the year for my market. I looked at everything from finished goods ready to be on shelves tomorrow to prototypes for consumer products that wont be available until fall 2012 or later. One company had prototypes but were still trying to figure out how to manufacture them for consistent quality control. Many manufacturers with multiple products will show items, but if enough interest isnt generated at the trade show, wont ever be built. There were over a 1,000 vendor/manufacturer exhibitors at this trade show, with over 6600 buyers representing over 2200 stores and chains.
These tradeshows will let you know before you go into full production if you have a market for your product and if there is interest from the retailers to carry it. No reason to spend time raising funds to build something no one wants to buy. You may be at this stage for 2 years or so, trying to get exposure to retailers and distributors.
(Distributors buy products from many small different vendors, add a small fee, and in turn sell them direct to retailers for you. This saves the retailer from having to open 20 different accounts with a bunch of small boutique manufacturers/vendors. You REALLY want to hope one of these guys picks you up.)

You will get feedback from retailers and sales reps. Depending on the size of the trade show you will possibly be able to meet with fabrication companies and material suppliers, and begin contracting for the material you need and a bigger fabrication plant to make it.

Know this going in. In the long run you might very well make a comfortable living or get rich off your idea. But in the first 2-3 years you will probably not be able to afford to pay yourself a pay check. As a business owner I will be the first to tell you to take the leap, but be aware that either your wife will need to be able to fully support the family financially while you pursue this or this needs to be something you can do part time while holding down a regular job and sing your paid vacation to attend trade shows.

If you want to run stuff past me feel free to shoot me a PM.

Is your invention animal, vegetable or mineral?

Sand's advice is the most sound imo. Of course, I only say this because it expands on the advice I already gave. Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

You gotta approach it as a business. The patent/IP stuff is secondary. And in a way, you're more protected and less exposed if you've got a working entity already in the marketplace. This is especially due to the speed of info. these days. Literally, you can invent a new "snuggle" w/o a patent, throw it on Amazon marketplace, sell the shit out of it and your "snuggle" will always be THE snuggle. Even if someone comes along and patents something similar, market-wise and in court, it wont matter. You're still moreso protected if you've got a working product.

Courts seem not as patent-friendly anymore really unless you've got something tangible to show (this is before even considering the patent backlog we've got now). The days of patent-jumping are numbered, and this is a good thing.
The reality is, the patent is just a nice addendum to a business plan you take to an investor if you've got no tangible data as of yet. But a smart investor will always prefer real-world numbers rather than a simple patent.

Last little suggestion. If you've got the wherewithall, depending on what you're inventing, try and prototype it yourself. Rapid Prototyping@Home is becoming a very viable alternative to contracting it out. Plus, you've got more direct control over the product and you've got equipment you can sell and write-off come tax time. I believe you can get a fully equipped "FabLab" for around $8000-$10000. Simple 3D printers, CNC, etc. can be had for $1000 in some cases. And I cant stress this enough - right now the SBA WANTS you to start a business and buy equipment. They DONT want people to simply have an idea and sub. everything out. This is why you can get up to 150% tax deduction in some cases on business-related equipment.

Soooo start that LLC, rent a warehouse, buy that equipment, and get to work. DRILLING AND MANLINESS

Note: a neat startup trick (I give this advice for free) is to finance your equipment payments less than the tax rebate at tax time. This will give you excess cash to help keep you solvent the 1st few years. In some cases you can stay in the black for like 3 yrs. after purchase of new gear. Then you sell the gear and start over (assuming that stimulus is still available). This simple fact is what's kept me alive the past 1.5 yrs in my current line of work.