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Morfiend
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on: April 06, 2004, 05:43:26 PM

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-general&T=12548&P=1&ReplyCount=18#post12548

Not much info, except they will have a PVP server in Beta. Also, no where do they say it will be a full open PVP server.

I am hoping for some sort of race war/faction pvp server.
Rasix
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Reply #1 on: April 06, 2004, 06:08:22 PM

Yay.  Get the pvp kiddies way the fuck away from me.  I know a lot of my friends will be all over this, but I don't think I'll be playing this.  I mean seriously, the equation is not in favor of this being a decent environment:  level based + Blizzard fanboi + wolf mentality = frothing-at-the-mouth jackass. The mentality of people on the Zek's in EQ and AC2's Darktide is enough to shy me away from any PVP server in a PVE game alone.  (Now just watch me be a spineless jellyfish and get talked into playing on it)

Hmm, perhaps I'm a cynic, but anyhow: thank you Blizzard.  Now make the game doesn't suck (percentage of not sucking upped to 30%).

-Rasix
Venkman
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Reply #2 on: April 06, 2004, 07:38:33 PM

Interesting. If by some extreme off chance I get in the beta (signed up like fifteen years ago and haven't posted a single thing at Vault Jr.), I'll probably go straight for the PvP server. With my recent experiences in SB and late SWG, I find I sorta have a newfound hankering for it, and it'd be interesting to come at a PvE-centric game blind (since I also haven't done a lick of research on WoW in a year) and see if PvP is fun.
daveNYC
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Reply #3 on: April 06, 2004, 08:27:43 PM

I think Mordred and Andred from DAoC will keep Blizzard from opening up a full PvP server.
SurfD
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Reply #4 on: April 06, 2004, 10:22:16 PM

Quote from: daveNYC
I think Mordred and Andred from DAoC will keep Blizzard from opening up a full PvP server.


You forgot Darktide from AC.

Anyone who knows the joys of being insta ganked by Bots 40x your level when you created a new character cause they were camping the static new character spawnpoints, or lifestones would agree.

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Romp
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Reply #5 on: April 06, 2004, 11:24:18 PM

Darktide in AC was successful as pvp servers go.

You cant really design a game for PvE and then whack in a full pvp server and expect it to succeed.  

IMO WoW is going to suck for pvp.  Its class based and seems to be following the EQ mould and the game is going to be designed around PvE and PvE balance.  PvP is going to be an afterthought with some horrible results.  Classes wont be balanced, especially for 1v1 and items are probably going to be all important.

From reading the forums they already have spells in like 10 second Mez spells and stuff like that which should never be in a pvp game.
squirrel
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Reply #6 on: April 07, 2004, 01:36:38 AM

Darktide was fun at least in the early days. One nice thing about AC was the level difference was less important and PvP fights could last a long time - sometimes too long. It was a fun server, at least years ago it was. No idea what it's like recently.

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eldaec
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Reply #7 on: April 07, 2004, 03:12:04 AM

Quote from: Morphiend

I am hoping for some sort of race war/faction pvp server.


I probably haven't being paying enough attention, but aren't all the servers supposed to be race/faction war servers?

Something about 'like experiencing WC3 from the inside'?

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waylander
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Reply #8 on: April 07, 2004, 07:50:57 AM

I hope its a Horde vs Alliance server though. In these kinda games, FFA environments drive people off and the server becomes the dung heap of the game.  Andred and Mordred were DAOC's attempts, and look how they bombed out.

If I'm going to invest time on character development, I want to be reasonably assured that there's going to be a population there to compete against.  Having a Horde vs Alliance ruleset it about as good as WoW can get without turning the server into an uncontrolled gankfest, and driving people away.

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Numtini
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Reply #9 on: April 07, 2004, 08:29:18 AM

Quote
Yay. Get the pvp kiddies way the fuck away from me


That was my first thought. I remember how much nicer things got after Modred opened in DAOC.

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Dren
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Reply #10 on: April 07, 2004, 09:10:48 AM

Quote from: eldaec
Quote from: Morphiend

I am hoping for some sort of race war/faction pvp server.


I probably haven't being paying enough attention, but aren't all the servers supposed to be race/faction war servers?

Something about 'like experiencing WC3 from the inside'?


I thought that this was true too.  The only difference a full PvP server would serve is allowing humans to kill humans, etc.  All the regular shards will most likely have RvR.

I must have missed something too because all of you are talking like WoW will only be PvE.  I don't believe that was ever the case.  However, correct me if I'm wrong.
Mr_PeaCH
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Reply #11 on: April 07, 2004, 10:27:49 AM

Quote from: Dren
Quote from: eldaec
Quote from: Morphiend

I am hoping for some sort of race war/faction pvp server.


I probably haven't being paying enough attention, but aren't all the servers supposed to be race/faction war servers?

Something about 'like experiencing WC3 from the inside'?


I thought that this was true too.  The only difference a full PvP server would serve is allowing humans to kill humans, etc.  All the regular shards will most likely have RvR.

I must have missed something too because all of you are talking like WoW will only be PvE.  I don't believe that was ever the case.  However, correct me if I'm wrong.


Dren, I think that Bliz/WoW was promising some form or another of PvP from the get-go; but it has be a bit uneven.  Sometimes they've said there will be dedicated PvP servers (a'la Mordred in DAoC) and other times it's been 'battlegrounds' with nothing really at stake and other times factional/race war stuff.  Everybody following the situation seems to think there will be some form of PvP but it's a bit muddy as to which and/or what else.  ie, if they have PvP servers does that mean PvE only on the rest?

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HaemishM
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Reply #12 on: April 07, 2004, 10:48:10 AM

I think the idea of a WoW "Race Wars" type server would be interesting. It would suck in a full, open PVP world, because the game isn't built for PVP first. It's built with many, many ideas that are death to fun PVP, like huge level differences, mez spells, etc. WoW would work much better with a DAoC style PVP, not full out open PVP.

Because let's face it, no one wants the asstards on the Battle.net servers to be able to gank anyone anytime anywhere. That's like giving a short bus-load of drooling retards nuclear weapons and expecting there to not be a nuclear winter.

Mesozoic
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Reply #13 on: April 07, 2004, 12:03:06 PM



Announce the PvP rules and I will happily care or not care about the PvP server.

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WayAbvPar
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Reply #14 on: April 07, 2004, 12:19:07 PM

Classic, Mes. I couldn't agree more.

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HaemishM
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Reply #15 on: April 07, 2004, 01:34:57 PM

Unfortunately, Mes's picture applies to the game as a whole as well.

HRose
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Reply #16 on: April 07, 2004, 06:08:47 PM

I think we can expect some surprises.

What I "read" in the situation is that Blizzard will go exactly after Mythic approach. Now they'll start an open PvP server just to push quickly the PvP and receive feedback from players about the raw balance of classes and so on.

At release (or considering where they are aiming), they'll offer a PvP environment on both server types. This means that the PvP will be allowed on a regular server only on "frontier" zones (which they have confirmed) and battlegrounds based on a level range (and instanced, to prevent zergs).

Then they'll have PvP servers where you'll be able to fight everywhere openly.

What I *hope* is that they'll transform this PvP server in a factional PvP server. And not just in an open carnage. A Mordred server like DAoC, but with factional PvP is really attractive for me. If Mythic had that I would have played there.

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Arnold
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Reply #17 on: April 07, 2004, 06:22:27 PM

Quote from: squirrel
Darktide was fun at least in the early days. One nice thing about AC was the level difference was less important and PvP fights could last a long time - sometimes too long. It was a fun server, at least years ago it was. No idea what it's like recently.


I have many fond memories of early AC Darktide.  I was never one of the high levels and I wasn't in an "elite" guild, but I had lots of fun.

I remember the early days of Baishi and getting raided by Azile's crew constantly after Gara pissed him off.  I remember being in a group of about 15 sub level 20s when Sethdrone showed up after doing a bunch of leveling.  He was mid to high 20s and he was just ravaging with 1 shot kills, ninja jumping onto buildings and all that.

I remember our revenge on Azile.  It was a 2 prong attack with Sagacious leading a force into their leveling area, while the rest of us journeyed by foot (no one could portal!) to Dryreach to pick them off as they recalled in from the Sagacious force.  That was a fun day, when a bunch of newbies came out on top.

Another VERY funny thing I remember was when Stilgar one shotted Alice Te Katrina with a crossbow and she dropped her Hoary Mattekar robe.  Now Alice had been constantly thrashing us as low levels, but she begged Stilgar for her robe back because they no longer dropped in the game.  She offered him ANYTHING for it.

Stilgar told her, "Nope, I'm going to put this on my mule and never, ever use it.  Whenever I get killed by someone like you, I'll pull it out and look at it and think about how shitty you feel for losing this."

I think the game started going downhill when they introduced all the no-drop equipment.  Add in the money exploits, duping, gear, XP whoring, macroing, too many dungeons, etc and it lost its charm.  I liked when the world was a much smaller place.  I liked when every point you spent mattered because you didn't have the XP to be good at everything.
Morfiend
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Reply #18 on: April 07, 2004, 06:42:28 PM

Quote from: HRose
What I *hope* is that they'll transform this PvP server in a factional PvP server. And not just in an open carnage. A Mordred server like DAoC, but with factional PvP is really attractive for me. If Mythic had that I would have played there.


This is what I am hoping for also. Free PVP but only Hord/Alliance and with VERY strong guards with large quantities around the newbie areas, getting less and less populous out to a guard free frontier.

With the very low death penalties, I dont think people will mind PVPing so much. Also, I think they need to make sure PVP death is no exp loss.
HRose
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Reply #19 on: April 07, 2004, 06:50:59 PM

Quote from: Morphiend
With the very low death penalties, I dont think people will mind PVPing so much. Also, I think they need to make sure PVP death is no exp loss.


I'm waiting for their ruleset. Without a ruleset they are screwed.

The game, right now, just begs to be exploited. Think to corpse camping.

-HRose / Abalieno
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El Gallo
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Reply #20 on: April 08, 2004, 09:47:43 AM

With many-hour-long dungeons and complicated multigroup raids planned (as I understand it), the PvP death penalty would actually be quite high.

My bold prediction: they will open with some HvA PvP servers, which will have a small but dedicated population.  They will have a glorified arena "battlezone" or two on all the regular servers.  Nobody will use them.  

By the third expansion, they will realize that it is stupid to have a divided playerbase all using the same high level content with no RvR, come up with a "and they all get along now that they have united to save the world from trakanon/tormax/crazy gods/invaders pssing through the gates of discord" story, and will allow horde and alliances races to freely intermingle on the regular servers.

Intermingling is also the only way that they can give useful and unique roles to the shadowknight and paladin classes without designing seperate content for each side, which is horribly inefficient in a genre where fast and frequent content generation > all.

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eldaec
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Reply #21 on: April 08, 2004, 10:33:20 AM

Quote

My bold prediction: they will open with some HvA PvP servers, which will have a small but dedicated population. They will have a glorified arena "battlezone" or two on all the regular servers. Nobody will use them.

By the third expansion, they will realize that it is stupid to have a divided playerbase all using the same high level content with no RvR, come up with a "and they all get along now that they have united to save the world from trakanon/tormax/crazy gods/invaders pssing through the gates of discord" story, and will allow horde and alliances races to freely intermingle on the regular servers.


My understanding is that they do this from day 1.

They have pve zones.

And RvR zones.

You can't attack opposing factions in pve zones.

At least that's my not-really-paying-attention-yet view of what happens in beta right now.

That said, if they took what you suggest is their approach, there is no reason to suggest they will ever decide to intermingle, and there is reasonable evidence you could support a MMOG with a playerbase divided in this way, and that they will use the RvR zones a lot. That same evidence suggests that level limited battlegrounds are also very popular with players.

What makes you think the rvr zones in WoW would automatically be less popular than they are in previous mmogs?

Someone correct me if I'm way off base on how this is supposed to work.

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El Gallo
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Reply #22 on: April 08, 2004, 12:17:07 PM

Because people actually interested in RvR will go, by and large, to the RvR servers.  Even without RvR servers, the RvR zones in SWG are empty.  PvP zones on blue EQ servers are empty.  See also Felucca.

Camelot has people in the RvR zones, but (a) it has no RvR servers to drain away the people that actually care (b) I think RvR in DAoC provides PvE benefits that are at least arguably worth fighting for, which I seriously doubt blizzard would allow considering the heavy marketing of WoW as a PvE game with raids, (c) blizzard appears to be obsessed with minimizing player conflict, as exemplified by the liberal use of instancing, and (d) DAoC has been roundly criticized for sucking copious amounts of ass in the "providing content" department, largely because of the divided realms.

Unlike SWG, which was apparantly designed with the primary motives of proving that UO was really right all along and to impress people on the MUD-DEV list, WoW will be designed to make money.  Lots and lots of money.  Tying lots of cool things to PvP on blue servers (by, for example, putting juicy raid targets in PvP+ zones) does not serve that goal.

So you end up with a playerbase that is divided (on blue servers) for no reason other than the fact that the factions fought in the RTS game that this MMOG took its lore from.   Now they may stick to their guns and sacrifice content, community, and gameplay on the altar of continuity (see:SWG), but I don't think that Blizzard will give a rats ass once they realize that they can work less and make more money integrating.

There is also the shaman and paladin problem.

This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
Mesozoic
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Reply #23 on: April 08, 2004, 12:34:49 PM

Quote
Camelot has people in the RvR zones, but (a) it has no RvR servers to drain away the people that actually care (b)


What does this mean?  Aren't almost all DAoC servers (all but Gaheris and Mordred) "RvR Servers"?

Blizzard has indicated that the basic ruleset would allow for factional combat in instanced zones, divided by level ranges.  Essentially like the DAoC battlegrounds.  Then they announced that they would have a PvP server.  Since factional combat is already covered under the basic ruleset, the PvP server will presumably be full-on PvP.

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El Gallo
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Reply #24 on: April 08, 2004, 12:48:41 PM

It means that if you put up a huge neon sign saying "IF YOU CARE ABOUT PVP GO HERE" that there will be fewer people who care about PvP on the servers that sign does not point to.

I think that the PvP servers that they are talking about are RvR everywhere, and that the regular servers will be RvR only in a couple zones.  They may add FF A PvP servers too, I guess.

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Mesozoic
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Reply #25 on: April 08, 2004, 12:51:00 PM

Quote from: El Gallo
It means that if you put up a huge neon sign saying "IF YOU CARE ABOUT PVP GO HERE" that there will be fewer people who care about PvP on the servers that sign does not point to.



But...Mordred...

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Bstaz
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Reply #26 on: April 08, 2004, 01:38:04 PM

Quote from: Arnold
Quote from: squirrel
Darktide was fun at least in the early days. One nice thing about AC was the level difference was less important and PvP fights could last a long time - sometimes too long. It was a fun server, at least years ago it was. No idea what it's like recently.


I have many fond memories of early AC Darktide.  I was never one of the high levels and I wasn't in an "elite" guild, but I had lots of fun.


I'll give Darktide another thumbs up. I think in the 2.5 years I played I only won a handfull of fights and had dozens of loses. All the loses where more fun then all the combined fights in DAoC's RvR world. A interesting note: many of the fights NO ONE died, people usually had the abilty to flee a losing situation. Compare that to todays PvP worlds where death seems to be near instant.

 The world was large enough that you could hide, travel to all the important places was a fairly easy but one could only run to the out of way locations.  There was always a strong sense of team work, small teams of about 4 to 5 people working together. And PvE really made you feel like a Hero, tanking 4 or 5 mobs all the time wondering if you are going to pull it off.

 I still wonder how the game would have turned out had noone broken the spell system.
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Reply #27 on: April 08, 2004, 01:43:59 PM

Quote
the RvR zones in SWG are empty


SWG had no pvp zones.  Had no zones at all unless you call a planet a zone.  If you intend to mean battlezones, they were empty because they were fucking bugged beyond belief.  People being trapped inside, losing all their gear when they leave, being warped to them from random places on the map and then losing all their gear till a server reset in the morning, most people not being able to even get INTO them, them creating extra instances when they should not (5 people go in to fight end up in 3 different versions).

It didn't take past the first week for everyone who was interested in PVP that the battlefields were life sucking voids and to be avoided at all cost.  It had nothing to do with the pvp wishes of the players (battlefields were also pve, and those were even more bugged).  Hell, the battlefields have not even been in the game for many many months.

SWG does not have pvp zones.  For all intents and purposes it never did.  It was SUPPOSED to though.  On that I will agree.  One day they are supposed to come back fixed.  I have my doubts.
El Gallo
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Reply #28 on: April 08, 2004, 02:10:10 PM

No doubt that SWG's battlezones sucked in a lot of ways.  I am sorry if I offended you by referring to something as a zone when it wasn't accompanied by a LOADING PLEASE WAIT message.

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Alluvian
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Reply #29 on: April 08, 2004, 02:48:40 PM

Your referring to it as a zone didn't really offend me.

Your taking a buggy piece of shit abortion of code that NEVER worked right and using that as some sort of barometer for how people feel about pvp is what offended me in it's sheer stupidity.

It's like saying nobody wants pvp because you can see what happened to SB.  I know that is NOT what you are saying, but the argument in both cases is ignoring the fact that one option is a buggy piece of fucking shit in a way that is totally separate from the gameplay it represents.

Even if the battlegrounds in SWG worked, the combat still sucks anyway.
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Reply #30 on: April 09, 2004, 05:15:25 PM

Quoting Katricia's post of today:

"At this time, the Horde and Alliance characters can not interact. They can not be in the same guild or group together."

This on the regular server. It means that they are following Mythic's path.

They have no reason of implementing this if the game is just a PvE environment. I think they'll have a form of RvR on the regular servers and open PvP *between factions* on the hardcore one.

You know, this was the dream about DAoC. Not Mordred stupid server, but a "realm invasion" server. With the factions still there.

-HRose / Abalieno
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Reply #31 on: April 15, 2004, 01:51:12 AM

I was just browsing the latest build notes for the World of Warcraft beta (no, I'm not in it), and this little bit caught my eye:

Quote
The Rest state modifier only affects experience earned from killing monsters. It does not affect experience earned from quest rewards or other experience rewards in the game (such as future PvP experience rewards).


Notice the PvP experience at the end.  Could Blizzard really allow for players to gain XP and level from PVP alone in the future?  That could be interesting, and something I hope they work on and implement.  Perhaps I'm reading into it more than I should, but I thought it was a neat thing for them to throw out there.

-Liquidator

Soukyan
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Reply #32 on: April 15, 2004, 08:25:37 AM

Quote from: Liquidator
Notice the PvP experience at the end.  Could Blizzard really allow for players to gain XP and level from PVP alone in the future?  That could be interesting, and something I hope they work on and implement.  Perhaps I'm reading into it more than I should, but I thought it was a neat thing for them to throw out there.


DAoC gives experience for player kills in RvR. Try it out if you want a preview of what it is like. It's essentially a far lesser rate of experience gained, but it's better than nothing at all.

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