Rift PvP

[Nebu]

I thought I'd make a thread to discuss the pvp aspects of the game.  I have a rank 6 mage, two rank 3 clerics, and am working on a rogue.  I've learned a lot about builds, strategy, and the ups and downs of PvP and would love to discuss/debate anything. 

[devildog]

What is your take on cleric survivability and on the role of the duracell cleric in warfronts, whether you play that build or looking at it from the outside. I have a r6 cleric(hit r6 last night) and every other class in the 40s, so i only have the a healer perspective for the most part, but understand a little bit about why the other classes complain, how they work, etc.

[tazelbain]

What PvP options are there is Rifts?

[Segoris]

World PvP (server depending, not just for rule set but for players who actually want to world pvp even though they are on a pvp enabled server..)
Played out warfronts/battlegrounds
PVP rifts coming soon, which actually sound fun but too little too late imo (it's a rift where the longer you keep your rift open the more reward you get, and the faster you close an enemy's rift the more reward you get and less they get).

[Threash]

Why would it be too little too late? the game is doing well as far as i know.

[Nebu]

What is your take on cleric survivability and on the role of the duracell cleric in warfronts, whether you play that build or looking at it from the outside. I have a r6 cleric(hit r6 last night) and every other class in the 40s, so i only have the a healer perspective for the most part, but understand a little bit about why the other classes complain, how they work, etc.

<opinion alert!>

There are really 3 roles in the WF's.  DPS, Heals, and utility (buffers, debuffers, etc).  Clerics are wonderful at healing (I like sent/warden) and can do massive ae dps on a well-played cabalist, but their melee really lacks the tools to compete with warriors.  A warrior will have 2 charges, stun, snare, heal debuffs, and high spike damage to take down their target quickly.  Clerics, even shamicar and senticars just don't have the tools or spike damage to handle higher rank targets quickly.  While they are masters of 1v1, they do so only by attrition.  In the WF's, you really only have a small window of time to drop a target on a cleric before getting zerged.  With so few escape tools, melee clerics are tough to have fun on without being in group with good peels/support. 

[Sky]

My favorite pvp build was something paladin/reaver. I built it around stuns and interrupts (and the classes were very different than), with lots of instants to keep on the move. My goal was to be mostly an annoyance, plaguing around a bunch of dots and harassing casters. Worked way better than I expected, partly due to the survivability of the tank build. Probably totally different now, but it was a lot of fun back when.

[Segoris]

Why would it be too little too late? the game is doing well as far as i know.

Sorry, yeah, the game is doing very well (it seems) but it's too little too late for my interests and not in general is what I meant.

[Nebu]

Sorry, yeah, the game is doing very well (it seems) but it's too little too late for my interests and not in general is what I meant.

Doing very well?  I'm not sure about that.  We'll see after all of the 6 month subscriptions run out in October. 

My friend's list is a ghost town and leveling a new toon, the areas < 50 are all mostly empty.  Consolidation of servers is helping keep things alive, but too many evenings events are failing due to a lack of participation on the 3 servers I play on. 

[Shatter]

The game is doing well but will get hit hard by SWTOR and GW2.  I think a lot of people were / are looking at Rift as a stepping stone MMO.  I have (3) 50's one thats rank 6, a rank 5 and a rank 2 so much of my play has been alt leveling / gearing. 

[Soln]

PvP is very strange in this game.  It really seems the luck of shard and WF draw if your side will dominate or not.  Since I started playing less than a month ago, I've done a lot of PvP -- since the barrier to entry was low -- and I've read the boards and done a bit of research.  PvP in Rift seems not really that different than WoW -- gear, gear, premades, gear, some strats, gear.  And like WoW it has a lot of the same problems, which makes me wonder "why bother?" and if it will be sustainable.

I still PvP far more than I PvE (thank you bleak Gloamwood and unbearable Scarlet Gorge) but it's a strange game.  We genuinely lose WAY MORE games than we win on our WF.   And regardless of the reasons for that, I don't cognitively understand how that will remain.  Surely one side will give up and then as fewer people play, the wins will escalate pushing out more players?

I'm still new, so feel free to correct and educate.  

[Shatter]

Defiant definitely dominate on my server / battlegroup.  They typically swarm the PvP daily locations and seem to be much more PvP focused then Guardians.  Warfront wise they win I would estimate +80%.  Its also the faction to play if you want to make money since prices for most stuff sells for double what guardians pay and it sells much better.  If I put up 10 things on auction defiant side Ill sell 9 or all 10 usually, guardian side I would be lucky to sell 3.   All of this has given me little reason to play my guardian.  I get ganked a lot trying to do dailes which is just a waste of time and money for healer cost.  When I finally finish that I lose repeatedly in warfronts for less favor and in between warfronts if I farm with mining / foraging everything I sell(if it sells) is for about half of what I get defiant side. 

[devildog]

i see the same problem on Sunrest. the battlegroup i am in is probably 90% defiant wins. Gathering resources inbetween games is near pointless. I make about as much just vendoring everything. Yesterday i lost about 5 port scions in a row and finally spent the rest of my time trying to figure out why we were getting sloshed. i inspected everyone on my side and found that about 60% of my side had no pvp gear whatsoever. I found one guy in rank 5/6 gear, not finished, but close. 3 or 4 other guys with rank 2-4 gear and maybe a weapon out of expert dungeons. I took a 30 minute break and found about the same thing in the next whitefall i ran. For some reason the guardian side seems like fresh 50s to pvp for whatever reason. Victories are few and far between. Saw a couple of the same groups on the enemy side occasionally, but the problem seemed to be more of a gear issue on our side.

I don't have a hard opinion on if gear should or should not be dominant, but it is what it is. If your team is rolling around in blues no amount of tactics seems to be real helpful. World pvp is also a problem, but lack of organization/caring on the guardian side seems to be the main culprit there. I think i'm going to start shard hopping until i can find a decent balance, or at least find a place where we have more of a fighting chance. Right now on Sunrest it feels like i'm a high school team trying to compete with college teams in pvp.

[Threash]

In this game spec counts more than gear.  The thing is the people with good gear also have good specs and viceversa.

[devildog]

Spec isn't my issue. I have 2 mobile healing specs, both with a mix of warden/sentinel/templar. I just hit rank 6 and have the weapon so far. My own survivability isn't too bad, but trying to heal guys in greens/blues/the occasional expert purple is horrible. Their survivability is noticeably bad. Comparing that to the enemy damage output(and i can tell by how hard they hit me) and i see a huge imbalance on most maps. Specs may play a role, but gear means more than anything for what i am talking about...sustainability. These guys don't have much of a chance to change tactics and try something else when they are getting gibbed left and right. When i have a guy slathered with all heals available to me and he gets whacked out before anything can tick, it's noticeable. On the rare occasion when we do have a couple of rank 6 guys(especially warriors) running on our side, the battle suddenly evens out. When the enemy team isn't playing guardian pinball and getting guild perk heal after guild perk heal and has their own defense to worry about things change. With the introduction of the next level of raid weapons this is probably going to get worse before it gets better.

[Zetor]

Yep, gear is a HUGE factor. I played as a healer cleric (typically sent/warden/templar) myself, and there was a great survivability leap once I was able to buy rank2/3 gear -- suddenly I could tank melee attackers and some casters, while before that (in blue / T1 dungeon gear) I was 3-shot even by the worst keyboard turners in existence as long as they had raid or r5+ gear. I can only imagine that with access to r5+ gear my survivability would've gotten even better.

edit: in retrospect, being able to get to the tier3 templar talents helped more... however, that's still tied to the rank grind

[Soln]

All this makes me wonder why they even bother opening BG's to levels <50.  It really is a twink-fest, since everyone is limited in spec.  And honestly, it does seem to be only about gear.  For while there may be some FOTM, specs are easily searched and sharred.  I think gear and organization/caring is the key.   

I'm genuinely not complaining, since I would like to try PvP at 50. But I can't see how that will be possible if 1) I have to grind favor now in always losing BG's to buy entry level gear at 50, or 2) I'm expected to grind favor and rank at 50 in green gear.  EIther way it's unpleasant.

And yeah, it's about sustainability. How do they expect Guards (if they are always weaker) to stick around?  I just can't help thinking if our win to lose ratio is accurately near 1:8 or higher, how attrition won't rise. 

Better non-QQ leaning question: is Trion monitoring PvP stats?  And is there any evidence they provide any balance/nerfs? 

[devildog]

the 8 to 1 loss ratio i posted was just what i experienced the last couple of weeks on the cluster involving the Sunrest cluster. This is probably not indicative of all clusters or any one side, but it does show a problem for that cluster. I spent a couple of hours every day during the week and probably 8-12 hours over each weekend. It goes somewhat better early in the mornings on the weekend and got significantly worse after about 10a.m. through primetime.

As to this being a PITA for new guys, yea, i would probably shut the game off quickly if i was a fresh 50 having to go up against r6 parachamps and r6 groups of 5. To make it a bit worse you have some of them running around with relic weapons now that are better than anything you will ever touch as a pure pvp player. That is kind of the icing on the cake. If you are a raider in the guild who likes to own noobs and have the time to kill, then i'm sure this setting plays out perfectly. For new blood i'm pretty sure this is going to kill the game for them. Everyone wants at least a chance, but when the guy you are fighting has 40% valor and weapons with twice your damage output i don't really see that as the case.

For a while there they had premades out of the pug que, and i can honestly say that was a lot of fun while it lasted and actually seemed pretty balanced. Even losses for those 3 days didn't get to me because most were competitive matches. It is quite another thing to get farmed in Port Scion for 20 minutes and come out with 400 favor. I'm not sure if that is exactly what i got in the last one, but regardless, it was a painful loss and the reward for trying to fight was pretty pitiful.

[Draegan]

I started to PVP, but I have nearly BiS everything from the PVE end of things.  Having zero Valor is terrible.  Still, playing a ranged character I can do lots of damage, I just die if anyone attacks me directly.

Rank 2/3 gear will be an overall downgrade.  I'll wait for the new PVP armor system to come on and look at whats available.

[Sky]

I started to PVP, but I have nearly BiS everything from the PVE end of things.  Having zero Valor is terrible. 

As a quest-geared character, I have zero interest in getting pwned repeatedly in pvp. Gear imbalance isn't the kind of pvp I like, even the newer shooters are putting in gear imbalance. So...fuckitol.

[Nebu]

I started to PVP, but I have nearly BiS everything from the PVE end of things.  Having zero Valor is terrible.  Still, playing a ranged character I can do lots of damage, I just die if anyone attacks me directly.

Even at rank 6, warriors will kill you in 2-3 GCD's.  Allowing raid weapons into the wf's was the STUPIDEST idea that Trion ever had. 

Draegan, most people in the WF's are terrible.  I'm an average to above average pvp player and I am quite successful on my mage.  I just had to learn a) how to properly spec for pvp, 2) how to recognize good and bad situations, and c) know when to run.  I play often with someone that has your identical situation (all raid gear and no valor) and they do very well.  You just have to know how to take advantage of your tools and spec for your playstyle.  I've been playing my marksman quite a lot lately and find that pre-kiting is a way of life.  Keep the warrior premade trains at 25-30m and you'll be unstoppable. 

Some tips:

- Do the pvp dailies (they are pve quests)
- Do the daily wf
- get the pvp sigil and a few pvp lessers in it. 
- look at your spec carefully
- play until frustration gets the better of you
- as ranged, stick to codex.  Whitefall can be fun but the rate of favor/prestige is slow. BG and PS are zergfests that favor warriors/AE.
- Save your favor for rank 5-6 gear

Hope that helps.

[Draegan]

This is all known already.  Valor is the sticking point.  I can still get top 3 damage unless the WF is a shitfest.

Just pointing out that having no valor makes living in the PVP world tough.  I'm only doing Codex since the best trinket in the game is the one from the rep vender.  (Best until the one in HK drops)

[Nebu]

This is all known already.  Valor is the sticking point.  I can still get top 3 damage unless the WF is a shitfest.

I've played in R2/3 gear and in full R6 gear.  The difference in survivability (as a mage) is too small to notice.  I imagine it's the same for a rogue. I rely FAR more heavily on cooldowns to survive than I do valor gear. 

As for the "This is all known already" line, I was just trying to help. 

[dd0029]

Good lord is PvP at 50 unfun compared to the leveling brackets.

Granted my not so leet pvp skills are fairly rusty as I've been pve'ing lately, but the change from the leveling warfronts to now is rough.

I found out why costumes are a bad idea and why Blizzard is right in their idea that you should be able to tell what someone is at a glance. The guy in the white dress that bashed my face in was a bit of surprise. I know I can tell rogues, warriors and casters apart by their energy bars. For mages and casters I need to check buffs.

[Sky]

I found out why costumes are a bad idea for pvp

PvP should not dictate PvE rules. Costumes disabled when your PvP flag is enabled. Period, end of story, please stop PvP QQ that fucks with my dress-up. Thanks.

Also, separate out PvP/E ability effects, too, so PvP imbalances stop fucking with the PvE game. Trion really screwed that whole thing up pretty badly imo.

[Nebu]

I like costumes being active in pvp.  It makes my opponents have to think. 

I can tell in about 2s what class everyone is by merely targeting them.  My PvP rule of thumb: Kill anything with a bow or a mana bar first!

[dd0029]

Picking out clerics is my problem.

In rank 1 gear the two seconds as I roll up to something is two seconds too long. Most of my fights tend to be "Where'd he go? Where'd who go?"

[Chorulle]

The new weekend version of Whitefall seems to me to be much improved over the normal version.  At least now you have a chance to come back from being behind, and some incentive to try to (as opposed to just sitting in a corner and waiting for the clock to run down after the other team scores first and turtles up).  The payout for winning or losing also seems considerably better.  Too bad it's only a weekend version, maybe if enough people bitch they will swap it in as a permanent replacement.

[Threash]

Being able to tell what class someone is doesn't tell you jack shit about what they can do in this game.  You still need to pay attention to their buffs and abilities.

[Soln]

funny story.   

My main is a Rogue only at 33 (27 days in) and I got tired of the bracket, so I rolled a helpful cleric.  In the 10-19 bracket it was the same rolfstomp story.  So, Wed I rolled a cleric on the Defiant side, same shard.  Leveled to 10 by Fri...  and exact same shit.

Guard curbstomping and farming us galore.

But not to worry.  I can get my revenge by going back to my lvl 10 Guard cleric... but then the EXACT SAME SHIT occurred.

how can this happen?   I literally would play 2-3 consecutive BG's, lose each, switch sides, lose again.  I tried this consistently Fri and Sat night.   It's very bizarre.  Each side I join gets mauled 20:500, 150:500.   It's making me crazy.  We're maybe 1:5 wins to loses on whatever side I switch to. 

[March]

Weird...   

[Sky]

Guard curbstomping and farming us galore.

roflpvp

[Threash]

funny story.   

My main is a Rogue only at 33 (27 days in) and I got tired of the bracket, so I rolled a helpful cleric.  In the 10-19 bracket it was the same rolfstomp story.  So, Wed I rolled a cleric on the Defiant side, same shard.  Leveled to 10 by Fri...  and exact same shit.

Guard curbstomping and farming us galore.

But not to worry.  I can get my revenge by going back to my lvl 10 Guard cleric... but then the EXACT SAME SHIT occurred.

how can this happen?   I literally would play 2-3 consecutive BG's, lose each, switch sides, lose again.  I tried this consistently Fri and Sat night.   It's very bizarre.  Each side I join gets mauled 20:500, 150:500.   It's making me crazy.  We're maybe 1:5 wins to loses on whatever side I switch to. 

The problem isn't really guardians vs defiants, it's solo queuers vs organized people.  Even two people working together (who don't count as a premade) can easily turn the tide of a warfront.

[Soln]

yup I gathered it's not one side that always prevails.  Apologies if that's coming across.  It's just a very weird experience.

[Threash]

Latest update had a whole bunch of PVP ONLY balance fixes for skills.  Isn't this what people have been asking for?