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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Blood Bowl Bullshit  |  Topic: DEMOCRACY: What tiebreaker should we go with? (vote now) 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: DEMOCRACY: What tiebreaker should we go with? (vote now)  (Read 10376 times)
lamaros
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Reply #35 on: July 26, 2011, 08:25:25 AM

Soccer, AFL, etc all decide tiebreakers on goal/point difference.

The suggestion that non-bashy teams have a greater TD difference is not proven by results.

Funny then that the majority of people voting in favor of TD Diff are on Amazon, Elf, or Skaven teams.

Pure coincidence, right? Please.  Ohhhhh, I see.

That's not true either. Those who put it first.

Me - Skaven
Llyse - Necro
ezrast - Lizard
Comstar - Amazon
Haem - Elves
Hoax - no idea
Avaia - Necro
IainC - Dark Elves (I think he ordered them the wrong way around)

And none of these teams had much in the way of TD difference this season apart from Llyse, who won his group.

The biggest gaps in the f13 seasons have consistently been the teams that have won their groups, regardless of race, and that will be the same even if Llyse, Andy and so forth all re-roll Undead for next season.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 08:28:01 AM by lamaros »
Paelos
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Reply #36 on: July 26, 2011, 08:38:16 AM

Go ahead and see if you can convince anybody playing a Dwarf, Chaos, or Orc team that TD Diff is fair as the first eliminator.

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Strazos
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Reply #37 on: July 26, 2011, 08:41:00 AM

Besides (or maybe including?) Necro, don't all those teams have legit 1- or 2-turn TD capability?

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Paelos
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Reply #38 on: July 26, 2011, 08:43:09 AM

Besides (or maybe including?) Necro, don't all those teams have legit 1- or 2-turn TD capability?

Yes, but he's on a roll.

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lamaros
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Reply #39 on: July 26, 2011, 08:48:36 AM

There aren't any 1 turn TD players in the league. My 10mv rat is the closest thing, but without a kickoff event it is still impossible (unless you play someone who sets up incorrectly and you get incredibly lucky). Orcs with a goblin are more likely 1 turn TD teams...

As for 2-turn TDs... they are possible for every single side in the league.  Ohhhhh, I see.

And I am still waiting to see any statistical evidence for these teams getting greater TD difference due to their speed. I'm sure Ironwood and Haem's results will clearly demonstrate that TD diff > H2H is clearly unfair...

I've played Megrim twice recently. Once was Nurgle v Human. Once was Skaven v High Elves. One game ended 2-1. One ended 4-0. Guess which teams played in which?

Yeah. Nurgle scored 4 times and Skaven scored once.

Anyway, I thought this was a voting thread, not a "lobby against people voting for TD difference" thread.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 08:53:21 AM by lamaros »
avaia
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Reply #40 on: July 26, 2011, 08:49:08 AM

Bashy teams are in theory going to hold on to the ball longer as they trundle down the pitch, bringing down the amount of time the opponent can score.  Fast teams give the opponents more chances to score.  It all evens out well enough.  There have only been a handful of games that have been decided by more than 3 scores over the history of the f13 league.  And yes, I realize those that won by more are the passing/speed teams.  You can't score when you're in the casualty box.  Suck it up, princesses.
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Reply #41 on: July 26, 2011, 09:13:41 AM

I'm not hiring any fucking goblins, dammit.
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Reply #42 on: July 26, 2011, 09:15:20 AM


The only reason I think TD Difference is acceptable in this case is that in BB one head to head game can be a little misleading. What if one team just gets horrible luck and loses by one? What if one team was badly beaten up the game before and loses by one?

Not that I wouldn't be fine with Head to Head first its really a coin flip for me. My beef with TD difference is that if you have a really new coach or a joke team or a team that just gets ground under and jacked up during the course of the season meaning there is a game your division plays against an inferior opponent the reality is a skaven or elf team will be able to score a lot more against this big underdog then a dwarf team ever can. In a league setting where all the coaches are equally skilled and nobody is playing ogres/halfing/goblin on a lark and nobody gives up because its very RAWR TRYHARD this might not be as important but in our league I think its a factor.

That said I'm going to change my vote order around to put head to head first.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 09:17:09 AM by Hoax »

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Paelos
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Reply #43 on: July 26, 2011, 10:06:58 AM

Not that I wouldn't be fine with Head to Head first its really a coin flip for me. My beef with TD difference is that if you have a really new coach or a joke team or a team that just gets ground under and jacked up during the course of the season meaning there is a game your division plays against an inferior opponent the reality is a skaven or elf team will be able to score a lot more against this big underdog then a dwarf team ever can. In a league setting where all the coaches are equally skilled and nobody is playing ogres/halfing/goblin on a lark and nobody gives up because its very RAWR TRYHARD this might not be as important but in our league I think its a factor.

That said I'm going to change my vote order around to put head to head first.

I agree with your thought process on that one.

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Reply #44 on: July 26, 2011, 10:19:08 AM

3- Head to Head
2- TD Difference
1- Most TD Scored (best attack)
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Reply #45 on: July 26, 2011, 11:23:35 AM

3. Head to Head
2. TD Difference
1. Most TD Scored

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eldaec
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Reply #46 on: July 26, 2011, 11:36:36 AM

My biggest issue with head to head is that it degenerates into a farce once three teams are on the same points score.

I'd also have no problem with 'fewest matches in match history' as tiebreaker (better than lowest TV imo)

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Reply #47 on: July 26, 2011, 11:44:01 AM

There aren't any 1 turn TD players in the league. My 10mv rat is the closest thing, but without a kickoff event it is still impossible (unless you play someone who sets up incorrectly and you get incredibly lucky). Orcs with a goblin are more likely 1 turn TD teams...

As for 2-turn TDs... they are possible for every single side in the league.  Ohhhhh, I see.

And I am still waiting to see any statistical evidence for these teams getting greater TD difference due to their speed. I'm sure Ironwood and Haem's results will clearly demonstrate that TD diff > H2H is clearly unfair...

I've played Megrim twice recently. Once was Nurgle v Human. Once was Skaven v High Elves. One game ended 2-1. One ended 4-0. Guess which teams played in which?

Yeah. Nurgle scored 4 times and Skaven scored once.

Anyway, I thought this was a voting thread, not a "lobby against people voting for TD difference" thread.

You keep mentioning this, yet I've absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I've played your Nurgle?! When? What?

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Reply #48 on: July 26, 2011, 11:50:08 AM

2 turn TDs are "possible" for dwarves, but only barely so, and they require you to make some pretty sub-optimal formation choices. I haven't raised a stink about it because life is too short but TD differential does have a minor anti-dwarf bias. It doesn't really matter as long as I just keep winning, though, so ultimately it isn't a big deal.

That's the thing about tiebreakers; they only come into play after you already screwed up anyway, so I'm not going to be too heartbroken if I lose one someday. I should have played better and not been in a tie.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

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Reply #49 on: July 26, 2011, 12:11:37 PM

Well, I lean towards TD diff just because I want you stupid bastards who try to hold the ball next to the end zone an entire half get punished somehow.   tongue

But in acknowledging the apparent angst from some teams, I'll adjust my vote to something fairer.

1.)  Least TD Sustained
2.)  Head 2 Head
3.)  TD Diff

Least TD's sustained seems to be the best compromise metric.  It doesn't matter who your playing, or what your own team is, you shouldn't be giving up lots of TD's.  This helps balance teams that lose close games vs. teams that have the shit beat out of them.  I feel this is better overall than Head to Head.  Lets say your using the Head to Head tie breaker, and team A beat Team B 2-1.  It was a close fought match, but Team B just had some bad luck with it.  However, Team A, over the course of the season, has given up way more TD's.  Team B should advance because over the course of many games, they've proven they're a better coach.  They've both won an equal amount of games, but Team B's games have been of higher quality.  Team A's win over Team B is shown to be more of a fluke rather than the rule, and so H2H wouldn't be the best metric.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 03:45:48 PM by Teleku »

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Reply #50 on: July 26, 2011, 12:51:09 PM

As a long-suffering elven punching bag, yes, I can score super quick. But I've been on my fair share of 3-0 and 4-0 games where I can't do shit with the ball, long bombs or no.

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Reply #51 on: July 26, 2011, 01:17:37 PM

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Reply #52 on: July 26, 2011, 03:44:45 PM

How about we just agree that all inferior races non-elven teams instantly lose tiebreakers.  And if its a tie between two non-elven races, then they both don't move forward!

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lamaros
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Reply #53 on: July 26, 2011, 05:31:39 PM

You keep mentioning this, yet I've absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I've played your Nurgle?! When? What?

You're right, I was massively confused. It was Comstar, at it was only 3-0.
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