f13.net

Just vote. Discussion about it has been made in other threads and can still be made in the Rules thread. Here you just have to vote so I can count it and seal the new tie breaker in stone.

Assgn a score to your favourite Tie Breaker:

3 to the one you think should be the most important, 2 to the second most important, 1 to the third. Zero will be assigned to the other options. The options are:

- Head to Head
- TD Difference
- Most TD Scored (best attack)
- Least TD sustained (best defense)
- Most Casualties Inflicted
- Highest TV
- Lowest TV considering one team's eleven bests including injured ones

Please type only the three options you vote, giving them a 3, 2, 1 score.

Voting will be closed in two days and whoever didn't vote will suck it up. To be eligible to vote you have to be taken part in any Main League Season, from 1 to 4.

3 - TD Difference
2 - Lowest TV considering one team's eleven bests including injured ones
1 - Head to Head

3 -- Head to Head
2 -- TD Difference
1 -- CAS Inflicted

3 - H2H
2 - CAS Inflicted
1 - TD Diff

3- Head to Head
2- TD Difference
1- Most TD Scored (best attack)

3 - Head to Head
2 - TD Difference
1 - Least TD sustained (best defense)

3 - Head On
2 - Difference
1 - Casualties

3 Head to Head
2 TD Difference
1 Lowest TV

3 TD Difference
2 Lowest TV
1 H2H

3 Head to Head
2 TD Difference
1 Least TD sustained

By Head-to-head do you mean the individual record the players have against one another?

In that case:

3 - Least TD
2 - Head to Head
1 - TD Difference

TD Difference first, don't care about the rest.

Not the record, just the result of the head to head confrontation in the current League, meaning the most recent match those two coaches played against each other.

- TD Difference
- Least TD sustained (best defense)
- Most Casualties Inflicted

1. Least TD sustained
2. TD difference
3. Head to Head

3 - TD Difference
2 - Most TD Scored (best attack)
1 - Least TD sustained (best defense)

1: TD difference because it discourages stalling for the last turn score and thus tends to favour risk takers and more exciting games.
2: Least TDs conceded because it is fairer across the board than TDs scored - slow teams, fast teams, bashy teams can all shut down scoring opportunities much more evenly than they can create them.
3: TDs scored because it's the point of the game.

I don't think that Head to Head is a good metric because there might potentially be three way ties and also because it hinges on a single match rather than the overall performance through the season
I don't think that casualties are a good metric because some teams have a hard time damaging the opposition and also some divisions might be harder to break than others. Wouldn't want to be an Elf team in a league full of Dwarfs and Nurgle.
I don't think that highest TV is a good metric because it disproportionately favours older teams over new ones.
I don't think that lowest TV is a good metric as it's something that's almost entirely under the control of each coach and not something you have to play for. You could just fire guys or drop rerolls etc in the last match to win the tiebreak.

3 - Head2Head
2 - TD Diff
1 - CAS  :grin:

3. TD difference.
2. TD scored.
1. Head to Head.

I think any metric other than using Head to Head as the first eliminator is going to feel unfair. I mean, if at the end of the season you're tied with someone and you beat them in a straight up match, but you don't play a high-scoring team, you're out?

That would be incredibly stupid.

Have better defence  :awesome_for_real:

3. TD diff
2. Least TD sustained (defence)
1. TD for (offence)

The people voting for all three of TD difference, TDs sustained and TDs scored are making the back of my brain twitch a little. (I know, I know, it makes sense in a voting situation.)

No, it just makes sense. Playoff advancement is based on success throughout the entire season, not on one particular game. Individual matchups run contrary to overall placement all the time.

edit for ICE: I'm dumb.

No, no, I just mean that if any two of those are already tied then the third one is going to be tied as well.

Lot of teams voting to screw low-scoring bash teams.  :oh_i_see:

Aye. Now how the fuck does Llyse keep making it to the semi-finals when he can't even work that out?

Because I'm awesome  :drill:

I don't like any of it. Not orc-friendly.

Why are we changing this again?

We are voting to see if needs to be changed. If the majority votes to keep it the way it was, it will stay the way it was. Personally I think head to head is the best way and that's probably what pushed me to see if there's any room to get there, but obviously I'm open to other options.

That's horseshit. If you're tied, it means you both fucked up the exact same amount of times playing the exact same teams. If you weren't playing against similar competition, I'd agree that TD differential is the way to go.

TD differential biases teams that can run up quick scores. Casualties sustained biases towards bashy teams. The only thing that doesn't bias is what happened when you played each other as the first determiner. It's the way every league in American professional sport decides their tiebreakers for a reason.

Soccer, AFL, etc all decide tiebreakers on goal/point difference.

The suggestion that non-bashy teams have a greater TD difference is not proven by results.

If we want to use real world seeding, how about computing strength of opposition? :) Someone who beat me, IW and Sir T should not be tied with someone who beat Comstar, Andy and Llyse.

Funny then that the majority of people voting in favor of TD Diff are on Amazon, Elf, or Skaven teams.

Pure coincidence, right? Please.  :oh_i_see:

I'm Amazon by the way and I'll go with:

3 - Head to Head
2 - TD difference
1 - Best defense

This.

I'd rather tie-break on TD against before TD diff or TD for, since at least the first piece is based on playing good defense (which every team should be doing), whereas the other 2 are more subjective, based on team style. My Norse are never going to score as much as elves or skaven, so a tiebreak coming down to that is the same as a tiebreak coming down to CAS count in my opinion.

Head to Head is really the only fair, unbiased tie-break.

That's not true either. Those who put it first.

Me - Skaven
Llyse - Necro
ezrast - Lizard
Comstar - Amazon
Haem - Elves
Hoax - no idea
Avaia - Necro
IainC - Dark Elves (I think he ordered them the wrong way around)

And none of these teams had much in the way of TD difference this season apart from Llyse, who won his group.

The biggest gaps in the f13 seasons have consistently been the teams that have won their groups, regardless of race, and that will be the same even if Llyse, Andy and so forth all re-roll Undead for next season.

Go ahead and see if you can convince anybody playing a Dwarf, Chaos, or Orc team that TD Diff is fair as the first eliminator.

Besides (or maybe including?) Necro, don't all those teams have legit 1- or 2-turn TD capability?

Yes, but he's on a roll.

There aren't any 1 turn TD players in the league. My 10mv rat is the closest thing, but without a kickoff event it is still impossible (unless you play someone who sets up incorrectly and you get incredibly lucky). Orcs with a goblin are more likely 1 turn TD teams...

As for 2-turn TDs... they are possible for every single side in the league.  :oh_i_see:

And I am still waiting to see any statistical evidence for these teams getting greater TD difference due to their speed. I'm sure Ironwood and Haem's results will clearly demonstrate that TD diff > H2H is clearly unfair...

I've played Megrim twice recently. Once was Nurgle v Human. Once was Skaven v High Elves. One game ended 2-1. One ended 4-0. Guess which teams played in which?

Yeah. Nurgle scored 4 times and Skaven scored once.

Anyway, I thought this was a voting thread, not a "lobby against people voting for TD difference" thread.

Bashy teams are in theory going to hold on to the ball longer as they trundle down the pitch, bringing down the amount of time the opponent can score.  Fast teams give the opponents more chances to score.  It all evens out well enough.  There have only been a handful of games that have been decided by more than 3 scores over the history of the f13 league.  And yes, I realize those that won by more are the passing/speed teams.  You can't score when you're in the casualty box.  Suck it up, princesses.

I'm not hiring any fucking goblins, dammit.

The only reason I think TD Difference is acceptable in this case is that in BB one head to head game can be a little misleading. What if one team just gets horrible luck and loses by one? What if one team was badly beaten up the game before and loses by one?

Not that I wouldn't be fine with Head to Head first its really a coin flip for me. My beef with TD difference is that if you have a really new coach or a joke team or a team that just gets ground under and jacked up during the course of the season meaning there is a game your division plays against an inferior opponent the reality is a skaven or elf team will be able to score a lot more against this big underdog then a dwarf team ever can. In a league setting where all the coaches are equally skilled and nobody is playing ogres/halfing/goblin on a lark and nobody gives up because its very RAWR TRYHARD this might not be as important but in our league I think its a factor.

That said I'm going to change my vote order around to put head to head first.

I agree with your thought process on that one.

3- Head to Head
2- TD Difference
1- Most TD Scored (best attack)

3. Head to Head
2. TD Difference
1. Most TD Scored

My biggest issue with head to head is that it degenerates into a farce once three teams are on the same points score.

I'd also have no problem with 'fewest matches in match history' as tiebreaker (better than lowest TV imo)

You keep mentioning this, yet I've absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I've played your Nurgle?! When? What?

2 turn TDs are "possible" for dwarves, but only barely so, and they require you to make some pretty sub-optimal formation choices. I haven't raised a stink about it because life is too short but TD differential does have a minor anti-dwarf bias. It doesn't really matter as long as I just keep winning, though, so ultimately it isn't a big deal.

That's the thing about tiebreakers; they only come into play after you already screwed up anyway, so I'm not going to be too heartbroken if I lose one someday. I should have played better and not been in a tie.  :grin:

Well, I lean towards TD diff just because I want you stupid bastards who try to hold the ball next to the end zone an entire half get punished somehow.   :-P

But in acknowledging the apparent angst from some teams, I'll adjust my vote to something fairer.

1.)  Least TD Sustained
2.)  Head 2 Head
3.)  TD Diff

Least TD's sustained seems to be the best compromise metric.  It doesn't matter who your playing, or what your own team is, you shouldn't be giving up lots of TD's.  This helps balance teams that lose close games vs. teams that have the shit beat out of them.  I feel this is better overall than Head to Head.  Lets say your using the Head to Head tie breaker, and team A beat Team B 2-1.  It was a close fought match, but Team B just had some bad luck with it.  However, Team A, over the course of the season, has given up way more TD's.  Team B should advance because over the course of many games, they've proven they're a better coach.  They've both won an equal amount of games, but Team B's games have been of higher quality.  Team A's win over Team B is shown to be more of a fluke rather than the rule, and so H2H wouldn't be the best metric.

As a long-suffering elven punching bag, yes, I can score super quick. But I've been on my fair share of 3-0 and 4-0 games where I can't do shit with the ball, long bombs or no.

Lowest F13 rank
A 200 word essay on the merits of Turn 16 fouling
Best Team Theme (as voted by the rest of the division)
TDs Inflicted + Casualties Inflicted
Lowest number of team levels

I'm helping!  :grin:

How about we just agree that all inferior races non-elven teams instantly lose tiebreakers.  And if its a tie between two non-elven races, then they both don't move forward!

You're right, I was massively confused. It was Comstar, at it was only 3-0.