Test Server patch Feb 9, 2005. Major changes again...

[Alkiera]

Hit the test server Wed Feb 9th, apparently planned to go live next week...

The highlights...  Crafters will no longer be obnoxiously interdependant.
SK/Paly horse speeds are nerfed alot, all horse speeds are slowed a little.
Class balance changes in the 35-50 range... Wizards and warlocks get major boost, which they really needed, fighters got taken down a little bit, mostly by nerfing the benefits of having obscene STR(3-400).

Other stuff mentioned in Headlines below.

*** Headlines ***
 
- See your enemies in a whole new way with our new /con system!
- Short-duration group buffs now last 10 minutes! Single-target buffs last 15 minutes!
- No more fizzles on spells that are blue or lower to you!
- Shorter timers and less restrictions on instanced zones!
- Give your beloved house pets a name!
- All tradeskill classes can now refine their own materials and components!
- Wizards and Warlocks go nuke happy!
- Tanks now tank better with increased mitigation!
- Strike back at your rival city through new sabotage quests!
- More encounters added for soloers and small groups, including solo instanced dungeons!
- You can now store empty bags inside other bags!
- Two new level 50 epic raid zones have been added: Shattered Stillness and Echoes of Time!
- Now easier to search for potions, poisons, activated items, and food!
 

*** Consider System ***
 
- A new NPC consider system has been added that provides players with information on the creatures they encounter.
- When appropriate, your target's level appears next to its name.
- The target window varies based on the target's level of challenge. A weak opponent will have a plain target window with swords under the target's name, while the target window of an epic opponent will be much more ornate.
- While the new system still shows which opponents are linked in an encounter, the consider message is based on the challenge presented by each individual target. Players who prefer to evaluate their opponents' strengths for themselves may enjoy this option
- You can switch between the old system and the new one by selecting the User Interface tab on the Options window. Under the Name and Chat Bubble heading, you can toggle the NPC Evaluation drop-down between Simple (new system) and Detailed (old system).
 

*** City Sabotage ***
 
- Wreak havoc behind enemy lines! Sabotage missions are now available from agents in Antonica and the Commonlands.
 

*** Gameplay ***
 
- House pets can now be named while you are in your house by right-clicking on your pet in the inventory window and selecting Name Pet.
- Creatures that used to appear alive after being killed should now look properly dead.
- There is now a ding, accompanied by congratulatory text, when your guild levels up.
 

*** Mechanics ***
 
- The damage bonus given by extremely high amounts of strength has been reduced. For example, having a strength of 400 previously gave a 200% damage bonus; after this change, the damage bonus is 155%. There is no change to the damage bonus at a STR of 100, and only a slight reduction at 200 STR.
- Heavy armor now mitigates 11% more damage. Light armor now mitigates 35% more damage.
- Having stamina greater than 200 will now increase the character's maximum health pool.
- Maximum power will increase when the stats used to determine it (strength, agility, intelligence, or wisdom) go above 200.
- Melee combat arts will decrease in effectiveness when equipping a weapon that is green to the character. They will decrease even further if a grey weapon is equipped.
- If an epic opponent can only be hit by a certain quality of weapon, that weapon's level must be within 75% or 5 levels of the target's level.
- A bug that was giving some characters extra points in certain skills has been corrected. For example, Artisans will no longer receive 5 extra points in the skills they stop advancing when they choose a class or subclass, and Brawlers no longer gain extra Deflection at lower levels.
- Players will no longer receive a "mini-ding" at reaching 100% of a level if they are unable to gain a level due to a milestone requirement (such as the citizenship quest, class quest, etc.).
 

*** Spells ***
 
- Spell casters will no longer fizzle on any spell that is blue, green, or grey to them, as long as their casting skills are maximized.
- Targeted persistent hostile spells (such as DoTs) should no longer drop if the caster summons a pet.
- Spectral Guard and Malefic Shroud will now last up to 10 hits before expiring instead of fading after a single hit.
- Flaming Agony and Fiery Doom should now show in the maintained window once they have been cast.
- Vexation upgrades are now available in from the appropriate merchants, recipe books, and loot drops.
- The stat bonuses given by Geotic Brand will no longer change when a player zones.
- Flameshield now does heat damage instead of divine.
- Wizard changes:
   - Breath of the Tyrant and Immolation no longer share the same reuse timer.
   - Ball of Flames and Ball of Fire no longer share the same reuse timer.
   - Piercing Icicles and Icy Coil no longer share the same reuse timer.
   - Ball of Flame now has a cast time of 2 seconds and a recast time of 6 seconds.
   - Burning Intimidation now does 4 times its previous amount of damage.
   - Immolation now deals 2 additional ticks of heat damage at 120% of the initial instant damage. The cast time has been increased to 3 seconds and the recast time is now 21 seconds.
   - Ice Comet's damage has been increased 275%, and its reuse time is now 45 seconds.
   - Freeze and Daenor's Lingering Frost now do 3 times their previous amount of damage.
   - Icy Coil's initial instant damage has been increased 350%.
   - Piercing Icicles now deals 200% additional instant piercing damage.
- Warlock changes:
   - Negative Absolution no longer shares a reuse timer with Null Absolution or Nil Absolution, and the maximum number of targets has been limited to 5.
   - Null Absolution no longer shares a reuse timer with Negative Absolution or Nil Absolution, and the maximum number of targets has been limited to 5. The spell now deals additional poison damage over time.
   - Nil Absolution no longer shares a reuse timer with Negative Absolutionor or Null Absolution, and the maximum number of targets has been limited to 5. The spell now deals additional poison damage over time and lowers strength by 5.
   - Dark Distortion no longer shares a reuse timer with Nil Distortion, and its damage has been increased to 150%.
   - Nil Distortion no longer shares a reuse timer with Dark Distortion. Its damage has been increased to 240% and it has a reuse timer of 18 seconds.
   - Flashfreeze now has a casting time of 1 second, and its damage has been tripled.
   - Noxious Bolt now has a reuse time of 6.5 seconds, and its damage has been tripled.
   - Dark Emanations no longer shares a reuse timer with Torment of Shadows.
   - Torment of Shadows no longer shares a reuse timer with Dark Emanations. Its instant damage has been tripled, and its damage over time has doubled.
   - Dark Nebula now does 3 times its previous damage. It is an upgrade to Grievous Blast, sharing a reuse timer with Grievous Blast and Putrid Cloud.
   - Devastation will now affect up to 5 targets in a radius of 10 meters with a recast time of 45 seconds. Its instant damage and DoT effect has been reduced by 50%.
- Short duration group buffs now last 10 minutes, and single target buffs now last 15 minutes. This affects the following spells:
   - Assassin: Bleeder's Talent, Merciless Villainy
   - Bard: Bria's Stirring Ballad, Performer's Talent
   - Berserker: Bloodlust, Battle Chant, Screaming Fury, Tides of War, Destructive Rage, Greater Fury, Uthros' Superior Tactics
   - Brigand: Burgle, Rough Skin, Stealthy Burglary, Aegis
   - Bruiser: Intimidating Orders, Rousing Cry, Velan's Nervy Order
   - Coercer: Recklessness, Refresh, Annoying Demeanor, Empathic Link, Mind's Eye, Konious' Glowing Breeze, Glyssa's Emboldening Glyph
   - Conjurer: Provocation, Fire Seed, Volatile Refuge, Vehement Stone, Flameshield, Blazing Presence, Varski's Encouraging Ward
   - Crusader: Offering of Armament, Theron's Heartening Call
   - Defiler: Dread Invective, Lucar's Grasping Tendrils
   - Dirge: Death's Scent, Hyran's Angry Sonata, Lithe Disbelief, Tuyen's Chant of the Arcane
   - Druid: Nettleshield
   - Enchanter: Breeze
   - Fighter: Call to Arms
   - Fury: Bristlepelt, Savagery, Fae Fire, Porcupine, Brishan's Quillshield, Hammerwind's Zealous Frenzy
   - Guardian: Form of Ferocity, Guardian's Call, Call of Command, Desperate Flurry, Do or Die, Call to Battle, Return to Battle, Briteblade's Command, Braksan's Desperate Rally
   - Illusionist: Fleeting Thoughts, Alacrity, Scintillating Aura, Intensity, Kor-Sha's Adroit Seal, Fozzin's Propitious Visions
   - Inquisitor: Act of Belief
   - Monk: Wisdom of Zephyl, Everburning Flame, Quiet Purity
   - Mystic: Avatar
   - Necromancer: Boon of the Lifeless, Rending Frenzy, Opal's Aggravating Seal, Darkbriar's Corpseskin
   - Paladin: Blessing of the Penitent, Divine Inspiration, Blessing of the Devout, Prayer of Devotion, Call to Glory, Caswon's Penitent Benediction, Theron's Call of Hope
   - Predator: Hunter's Instinct
   - Ranger: Steady Aim, Forester's Insight, Veil of the Forest, Tolan's Talent
   - Rogue: Smuggle, Street Smarts
   - Shadowknight: Unholy Order, Insatiable Hunger, Genux's Dark Embrace
   - Sorcerer: Burning Radiance, Accord
   - Summoner: Agitation
   - Swashbuckler: Swarthy Distraction, Freeboot, Flight of Fancy, Feigned Bravado, Bootleg, Bladeweaver
   - Templar: Vigilant Benediction, Glory of Combat, Resolve
   - Troubador: Alin's Soothing Serenade, Elise's Ditty, Kian's Destructive Anthem, Daelis' Dance of Blades, Cassindra's Chant of Clarity
   - Warden: Barbcoat, Primeval Instinct, Numbing Spores, Duststorm, Vesteri's Gorseshield, Salmekia's Pact of the Pride
   - Warlock: Venomous Runes, Abhorrent Gift, Toxic Grasp, Nihilism, Palon's Burning Blood
   - Warrior: Battle Tactics, Uthros' Defiant Cry
   - Wizard: Flametongue, Concurrence, Frostbound Gift, Frostshield, Casthopur's Frostburn, El'Arad's Custodial Warding

*** Items ***
 
- Empty bags can now be stored inside other bags. You can't put any items into a bag that is located within another.
- The run-speed benefits of mounts and certain items have been reduced:
   - Starter Mounts (2.5pp) - 24%, formerly 32%
   - Standard Mounts (5pp) - 32%, formerly 40%
   - Best Non Status Mount (8.2pp) - 40%, formerly 48%
   - Flying Carpets/Undead Mounts (50pp and status) - 48%, formerly 56%
   - Crusader Mounts - 10%, formerly 32%
   - Totem buff - 24% with a 30 minute duration, formerly 40%
 

*** Zones and Population ***
 
- Timers on most instanced zones have been reduced. Level and group size requirements have been removed, except for guild raids purchased with status points and certain quest-specific zones. The new timers are as follows:
   - Level 10-19 zones - 1 hour fail, 8 hour reuse
   - Level 20-29 zones - 2 hour fail, 12 hour reuse
   - Level 30-39 zones - 2 hour fail, 18 hour reuse
   - Level 40-49 zones - 4 hour fail, 18 hour reuse
   - Level 50+ zones - 6 hour fail, 18 hour reuse
- The vertical doors in Solusek's Eye and the Obelisk of Lost Souls should work better.
- Keys that allow you to progress deeper into the Wailing Caves will now be found on their respective owners' corpses rather than inside treasure chests.
- Venekor's breath attack has been adjusted so that subsequent ticks of its damage-over-time spell do the same amount of damage as the initial hit.
- The Vision of Vox's breath weapon does less damage, but can now affect all members of a raid party. Her loot quality has been improved.
- The loot dropped by encounters in the Draconic quests has been improved.
- Foulgill the Rotten's loot has been adjusted to better match the challenge of the encounter.
- Raids cannot zone into the instanced dungeons in Enchanted Lands and Thundering Steppes.
- Solo versions of the instanced dungeons in Orcish Wastes, Enchanted Lands, and Thundering Steppes have been added. If you are solo or grouped with one other person, you will automatically enter these instances. Groups of three or more will enter the heroic versions.
- Entrances to the instanced dungeons in Orcish Wastes, Enchanted Lands, and Thundering Steppes will now appear more frequently.
- Advanced solo/small group encounters have been added to the Orcish Wastes, the Feerrott, and Rivervale.
- Two new level 50 epic raid zones have been added: Shattered Stillness in Antonica, where you may find Arch Lich Udalan; and Echoes of Time in Commonlands, where you will find King Zalak. Be wary, for these beings are rumored to be a challenge for a full raid of hardy adventurers.
- That greedy little rat Stiletto fired his scouts and is carrying out his orders alone now to maximize his profits.
- Bouncer Prud can now be found more frequently.
- Opponents that require two or more groups are now more likely to drop useful crafting components.
- NPCs in the Open Grave Heroic zone should now be between 25 and 27, except for the boss who is a higher level.
- Adjusted some of the abilities of the Drakota Niscanth.
- Level 40+ epic encounters do slightly more spell damage and heal for slightly more.
- Boss lifetap abilities now do more damage.
 

*** Quests ***
 
- Sir Tatters will now give the Small Matter of Bristles quest to those adventurers who declined or were unable to accept the quest before.
- Nillipuss will now only reward adventures upon completion of his quest.
- Varski, Part III can now be completed and the appropriate rewards will be given.
- Drodo will now let you complete Drodo's Goodies if you completed Curse of the Bloody Shank beforehand.
- Completion of The Lost Legend of Lavastorm heritage quest will now award status points.
- Targok will now give you another chance at accepting the third part of his quest if you initially declined the invitation.
- The items Bendik Jonkers seeks can now be found in the Edgewater Drains.
- Language quest items will now drop as corpse loot to allow those who have outleveled the creatures to complete the associated language quests.
- Additional dialog responses have been added into the Bitter Brew quest.
- Players will now receive a title reward for completing the "Deception" quest.
- Fixed some issues with the Hostile Forge instance and lowered its reuse timer.
- Corrected an issue with the access quest to the Vestibule.
 

*** Tradeskills ***
 
- Four new crafting abilities have been discovered: apothecary, weaving, timbercraft, and geomancy. These skills allow all artisans to refine the materials and components needed to make final products. New recipe books can be found on merchants or scattered throughout Norrath which teach you how to use these skills. Artisans automatically gain 5 points per level in these skills.
- New events and reaction arts have been created for apothecary, weaving, timbercraft, and geomancy. Reaction arts for these skills are based on thaumaturgy, binding, woodcraft, and geocraft. These skills increase through use. The higher your skill level, the better your chances of creating higher-quality items.
- All tradeskill recipes now require a new type of fuel at each tier. Fuel cost increases with level.
- A bug causing certain artisan-related skills to be 5 points too high has been corrected.
- The Advanced Scholar 15 book has been added to the appropriate loot drops.
 

*** Controls, Commands, and UI ***
 
- Examining a spell or art now gives you more detailed information on the exact effects of the ability. Some refinements will be made to the examine data before this feature is moved to the live servers.
- Heal amounts are now sent to the chat window, as in "You heal for X hit points." A Heal subcategory has been added to the chat options.
- A Combat General chat option has been added to filter start/stop fighting messages.
- Dragging a recipe icon into the chat window should no longer cause a crash.
- Checking and unchecking categories in Chat Options now work more logically.
- Merchant UI: New categories have been added for Potions, Poisons, Lore, and Attuneable items.
- Merchant UI: Searching for Activateable items works properly.
- Merchant UI: Searching for food by con color works properly.
- Merchant UI: The names of unusable items now appear in red.
- The scroll speed of the recipe examine window has been increased.
- The chat tab frame now fades along with the main chat window frame.
- Various issues with chat scrolling have been addressed.
- A keymap has been added for the Implied Target window. You will find the option to bind a key to this window in the Controls tab of the Options menu under Window Keys.
- Chat tabs no longer share the same buffer. You can now view up to 1000 lines of text in each chat tab.
- Chat tab titles can now be up to 20 characters long.
- Shift + Page Up and Shift + Page Down now let you scroll through responses on the primary chat window (defined with "Always Chat Here").
- Your guild will no longer show up at the bottom of the social structure list.
- Quest update messages now tell you the current/needed target numbers. The wording on many quest update messages has been clarified, and colors have been changed for emphasis.
- The tooltip on ranged weapons should now report the correct damage information for when the user masters the weapon.
- Item con colors in the broker, merchant, trade, and examine windows should better indicate whether someone can use an item.
 

*** Art ***
 
- Riders should no longer float above their horses.
- Fixed the tail on fancy horse LODs.
- Improved the horses' idle animations.
 

*** Audio ***
 
- You can no longer change the speaker type from within the game.
- Many city folk who were quiet before have found their voices.
 
Note: There is a new optional audio download available via the launchpad.
 

Alkiera

[Murgos]

- Four new crafting abilities have been discovered: apothecary, weaving, timbercraft, and geomancy. These skills allow all artisans to refine the materials and components needed to make final products. New recipe books can be found on merchants or scattered throughout Norrath which teach you how to use these skills. Artisans automatically gain 5 points per level in these skills.

So, thats huge.  Being able to make your own base items will take a lot of the suck out of the crafter game.

Not that it is not still (yay negatives) a tedious time wasting suck of hell spawned activity.

[jpark]

One of the few things I consider an actual improvement in EQ2 over EQ1 was the crafting system - which appears to be improved further by removing some interdependencies.

At level 27 I stopped playing - but I will be curious to see how crafted drops compare to raid drops.

The sobatoge missions sound interesting.  It is a small step in making the Quenose / Freeport partition relevant to game play.

Have they done anything further to differentiate the classes or offer more choice in abilities within a class?

[kaid]

It is not a change in some of the interdependancies it turns out it makes every crafter who wishes to be completly independant. I think that is probably a bit more than was really necessary myself and we shall have to see what the repercussions for it are. This really smacks alchemists in the jaw though as pretty much all they ever do is make sub components for others. As a scholar though I like not having to beg borrow and steal items to make my spells.


kaid

[jpark]

It is not a change in some of the interdependancies it turns out it makes every crafter who wishes to be completly independant. I think that is probably a bit more than was really necessary myself and we shall have to see what the repercussions for it are. This really smacks alchemists in the jaw though as pretty much all they ever do is make sub components for others. As a scholar though I like not having to beg borrow and steal items to make my spells.


kaid

Aye.  In my guild we had a level 50 alchemist...

[Sobelius]

Hmmm...not totally clear to me.

The way I initially read it, it sounded like I could refine any raw material -- but this still forces me to go to another crafter for interim components needed for a final item.

As a weaponcrafter, I currently need someone else to make (interim) wooden staves for use in the (final) axes I can make. This change makes it sound like I will be able to refine wood into planks so that a woodcrafter can make the staves. But it doesn't sound like they've changed it to allow me to make the staves myself.

IMHO, they should have made it much easier for crafters to sell to other crafters. Instead of having merchants sell low quality components like oils and washes, they should have created merchant vendors inside trade skill instances that served as brokers only for crafted components -- refined and interim level stuff -- so crafters within a given society could more easily sell to each other those things that only crafters really care about. That would have cleared a bunch of crap out of the broker system so that only final-stage crafted items would be listed on brokers. Furthermore, it would have allowed crafters a way to continue crafting while selling off components to other crafters who might get online at a different time. There's nothing worse than needing an interim component like a hilt or a stud or a buckle and having to hunt down someone to make them.

Guess I'll check out the changes when it goes live.

[Avatard]

- There is now a ding, accompanied by congratulatory text, when your guild levels up.

God forbid they leave out a ding.

[Kenrick]

Quenose

You were obviously a Freeport native.  Either that or you're just a really bad speller.  

I quit at 30, 50% because of game suckage and 50% due to lack of playing time.  And this game requires a shit ton of playing time.

[Alkiera]

  Impiouseq2 wrote:
    W W !  Great news Moorgard.  The only thing in here I didn't see that I want to see is that if you have gotten around to re-itemizing the solo/small group encounters.  How far off are you guys on that?  As soon as that's done I'll be reactivating but I'm very glad to see these changes, especially putting the fragile casters back at the top of the DPS chain, where they should be.

Since I'm sitting right here -- Good point.  We haven't mentioned this lately.  Checkins for those have been occurring daily.  It's a whole lot of data for our folks to develop and then to be QAed.

The current estimate is the update cycle following this one.  We want it out there as badly as you do, I promise.

This update adds even more of the Advanced solo encounters as well as the first of the Solo Instances.  We're doing our best to deliver improvements here every update, and also to get those updates out to you as frequently as possible.

- Scott

____
Scott Hartsman
Senior Producer, EverQuest II

So, more solo content in this patch too.  Looking forward to those solo instances, been hoping for that kind of thing for awhile.

Alkiera

[schild]

Gallenite threatened to ban me on the EQ2 beta boards when I began to relentlessly assault fanbois for not understanding the game needed work.

Other than the praise I give the EQ2 live team and their ability to release positively monstrous patches with little to no problems, I've no love for what they're doing.

[El Gallo]

As an outsider since beta closed, these patches are amazing in scope, and the notes impressive in detail.  WoW's live team is put to utter shame by these guys.

[Toast]

Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic?

[jpark]

As an outsider since beta closed, these patches are amazing in scope, and the notes impressive in detail.  WoW's live team is put to utter shame by these guys.

True.  But Eq2 is in its paid beta period :P

[Big Gulp]

Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic?

Come on, it's hardly the Titanic. 

Now the Andrea Dorea, I can see.  A cruise ship struck by a larger vessel that gradually sinks into oblivion.  Perfect analogy.

ETA:  As long as we're on ship metaphors:

WWII Online = Titanic (Sunk on maiden voyage)
Ultima Online = USS Constitution "Old Ironsides" (Antiquated and obsolete, but achieved huge upsetting victories in the past)
Everquest = Queen Elizabeth II (A stately craft, the benchmark for cruise ships)
World of Warcraft = USS Kittyhawk (Leaves a huge wake, targets and destroys lesser ships)
City of Heroes = A Nitro burning cigarette boat (Small, but efficient and focused on what it does)
Star Wars Galaxies = The Achille Lauro (An grand vessel, until everything went horribly, horribly wrong)

[Sky]

So, more solo content in this patch too.  Looking forward to those solo instances, been hoping for that kind of thing for awhile.

Solo and duo. Which is at least a step up from their previous "Solo means 1-3 players".

In my world, solo means one player. Not two. Balancing a dungeon for two players is not a solo dungeon.

[jpark]

Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic?

Come on, it's hardly the Titanic. 

Now the Andrea Dorea, I can see.  A cruise ship struck by a larger vessel that gradually sinks into oblivion.  Perfect analogy.

ETA:  As long as we're on ship metaphors:

WWII Online = Titanic (Sunk on maiden voyage)
Ultima Online = USS Constitution "Old Ironsides" (Antiquated and obsolete, but achieved huge upsetting victories in the past)
Everquest = Queen Elizabeth II (A stately craft, the benchmark for cruise ships)
World of Warcraft = USS Kittyhawk (Leaves a huge wake, targets and destroys lesser ships)
City of Heroes = A Nitro burning cigarette boat (Small, but efficient and focused on what it does)
Star Wars Galaxies = The Achille Lauro (An grand vessel, until everything went horribly, horribly wrong)

You have great metaphors.  This could almost be a ranking system.

[Toast]

Some additional ship metaphors:

Lineage II:  Roman slave galley.
Players toil for months and months for some limited pvp conflict

Wish:  USS Indianapolis
Was torpedoed in the Pacific, but nobody noticed.

[Big Gulp]

Some additional ship metaphors:

Lineage II:  Roman slave galley.
Players toil for months and months for some limited pvp conflict

Wish:  USS Indianapolis
Was torpedoed in the Pacific, but nobody noticed.

I bow to you, sir.  That there is good stuff.

[UD_Delt]

There is more info from the test server RE: crafting changes.

Apparently the new books have ALL subcombines for ALL classes. If you so desire you will never again have to buy a subcomponent from another class.

This completely changes the base of the tradeskill system. Before you had 2 markets as a tradeskiller: crafters and adventurers. You now only have one market and that is adventurers. The only exception is the provisioner who even before the patch was independant, they retain both markets.

This is a large blow to classes whose market was mainly other crafters such as the alchemist, woodworker, and jeweler. Alchemist and jeweler at the least retain their market of selling a few skill upgrades for the select skills that don't have a shit-ton of adept drops. Woodworker no longer really has a market for anything other than maybe selling a few SoW totems here and there.

[Drubear]

Ditto the weaponsmith who's only way to get money to work on crafting was to sell spikes and such. Basically a low brow alchemist.

At issue is that altho some screamed bloody murder about it, the various crafts were able to get some plat moving by working that interdependence. Alchemists and WS have pretty much no adventure market at all. There is talk of making the writs (city, wholesaler, workshop) more lucritive, but those would be tough to balance.

What's sad (and shocking) is SOE appears to moving forward despite many people complaining about it. I think part of the (over-) reaction is SOE's very visceral response to so many alchemists at 50, buying top end horses, and sitting on mountains of plat. Obviously you have to read between the lines to get that (and maybe put on an aluminum hat too) but it sure looks that way to me.

Basically, an interesting twist on the whole I-wanns-bake-bread portion of these games that they're basically backing down from as being Too Hard To Balance As Is So We're Just Giving Up. .

Maybe in EQ3 (!) they'll get it working...

[Murgos]

Ditto the weaponsmith who's only way to get money to work on crafting was to sell spikes and such. Basically a low brow alchemist.

Other than, of course, all the hundreds of weapons he makes.

[Sobelius]

Ditto the weaponsmith who's only way to get money to work on crafting was to sell spikes and such. Basically a low brow alchemist.

At issue is that altho some screamed bloody murder about it, the various crafts were able to get some plat moving by working that interdependence. Alchemists and WS have pretty much no adventure market at all. There is talk of making the writs (city, wholesaler, workshop) more lucritive, but those would be tough to balance.

What's sad (and shocking) is SOE appears to moving forward despite many people complaining about it. I think part of the (over-) reaction is SOE's very visceral response to so many alchemists at 50, buying top end horses, and sitting on mountains of plat. Obviously you have to read between the lines to get that (and maybe put on an aluminum hat too) but it sure looks that way to me.

Basically, an interesting twist on the whole I-wanns-bake-bread portion of these games that they're basically backing down from as being Too Hard To Balance As Is So We're Just Giving Up. .

Maybe in EQ3 (!) they'll get it working...

I keep wondering why crafting continues be the model:

- collect parts
- collect recipes
- combine said parts with said recipe to produce predetermined object
- provide a system where the parts, recipes and final product are balanced for the time vs. cost vs. reward triangle

Why can't crafters...craft?

Why not give me the ability to put together multiple pieces/styles/colors/materials in new ways and to make truly different and interesting looking objects?

Imagine as a crafter you get to play with something like the CoH character creator, but for making armor, weapons, furniture -- whatever -- and the system already comes loaded with basic building blocks that you combine in a multitude of styles. Add on such things as particle effects or procs...but let the players decide how to combine -- obviously within some sort of checks and balances system.

Bottom line is, I have never seen much craft in crafting. Horizons briefly promised something like this (I remember Bowman making some statement about the astronomical number of items people could create in the game by varying blades/hilts/pommels/tassels on weapons, for example -- all done in an engine where these details were impossible to see, so in the end was pointless...too bad).

[Samwise]

ATitD had crafting like that.  I never got far enough in the game to actually try it, but supposedly artists created complex objects by arranging primitives, and then had the value of their work judged by other players.

SWG players also were able to do stuff like that, with great difficulty, by cleverly exploiting bugs in the furniture placement system.

[jpark]

Why can't crafters...craft?

Why not give me the ability to put together multiple pieces/styles/colors/materials in new ways and to make truly different and interesting looking objects?

Imagine as a crafter you get to play with something like the CoH character creator, but for making armor, weapons, furniture -- whatever -- and the system already comes loaded with basic building blocks that you combine in a multitude of styles. Add on such things as particle effects or procs...but let the players decide how to combine -- obviously within some sort of checks and balances system.

To me this is a whole new vision as to how crafting should work.  Inspired - I like it.

[Margalis]

I don't know so much about arranging items as art and such - sounds like a useless diversion. But I do think that same sort of freedom can be applied to "real" crafting to a degree.

For example, if I'm making gun, allow me to choose different parts to influence:
Range
Accuracy
Power
Weight
Ammo Capacity

So maybe if I want high accuracy I choose a longer barrel, but that in turn makes the gun weigh more. (Assuming weight is a negative in the game world) That sort of thing. Different weapons or metals for different weapons, things like that.

[Sobelius]

I don't know so much about arranging items as art and such - sounds like a useless diversion. But I do think that same sort of freedom can be applied to "real" crafting to a degree.

For example, if I'm making gun, allow me to choose different parts to influence:
Range
Accuracy
Power
Weight
Ammo Capacity

So maybe if I want high accuracy I choose a longer barrel, but that in turn makes the gun weigh more. (Assuming weight is a negative in the game world) That sort of thing. Different weapons or metals for different weapons, things like that.

I think DAOC has something akin to this with the Diablo-esque gem-embedding/slotting system. Take it further with visual design mods so that a crafter can actually create totally new-looking or unique items. Again, the CoH costume designer is, to me, a visual feast. I still haven't tired of playing with it just to design different looking characters (that i'll never play -- but damn it appeals to my creative/crafting side just to tinker with color schemes, patterns and armor pieces, etc. -- just looking foreard to even more coming down the road).

I've often wondered if one of these days we'll get a design-your-own spell effects in a MMORPG -- manage the range, duration, damage, etc. all in a checks and balances way as you described for the gun, and let the spellcaster choose from a library of colors and effects and casting animations such that even if two players' spells have identical effects, they could appear in the game differently (or vice versa -- similar casting animation and visual FX but different game effects).

[Drubear]

Ditto the weaponsmith who's only way to get money to work on crafting was to sell spikes and such. Basically a low brow alchemist.

Other than, of course, all the hundreds of weapons he makes.

Oh, sorry you're right of course. (sarcasm on) WS's can >>get<< money by selling the weapons he makes back to vendors. But to actually >>make a net profit<< on stuff made, spikes was it.

The sell back on weapons (like most items) is less than the cost to make. The only profit to be made is supplying items to other players: finals to adventurers, interims to crafters. Oh and some finals are good for crafters as well (food/drink specifically) but that's the way it works.

Latest news from Test is that non-specialist fuel cost will be double on interims. So there might be lower cost interims available than what you could make yourself.

[Alkiera]

Why can't crafters...craft?

Why not give me the ability to put together multiple pieces/styles/colors/materials in new ways and to make truly different and interesting looking objects?

Imagine as a crafter you get to play with something like the CoH character creator, but for making armor, weapons, furniture -- whatever -- and the system already comes loaded with basic building blocks that you combine in a multitude of styles. Add on such things as particle effects or procs...but let the players decide how to combine -- obviously within some sort of checks and balances system.

To me this is a whole new vision as to how crafting should work.  Inspired - I like it.

Other than it's more or less exactly what Horizons let you do.   If you were a weaponsmith, you'd say I wanna make a... 1h sword.  Because I'm a mid level smith, I can make it out of steel(or whatever), which determines the base stats of the sword.  Then I can go and choose the visual effect of the weapon...  A curved wide scimitar blade, or a single-edged katana blade, etc... and you could change the style of the hilt, and I believe a tassel hanging from the hilt.

As you got better at crafting, you could use special 'techniques' in the creation of the weapon that would modify the base stats, perhaps you had a specail way of shaping the blade that made it swing faster, or a sharpening technique to increase the damage, or techniques to add diablo2-esque slots to the sword, so gems found while hunting could be added to it to add magical effects or what have you.

This kind of thing went for all the crafts, as far as I know.  weapons, armor, clothing, even spells could be improved over the normal...  Instead of just an upgrade to adept level of spell, it'd be an upgrade to adept, with a special technique applied to make the spell cost less mana, or cast slightly faster, or do more damage... and you could alter the nature of the spell effects as well, iirc.

It's too bad that the rest of the game sucked so bad.

Alkiera

[schild]

Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic?

[Murgos]

Ditto the weaponsmith who's only way to get money to work on crafting was to sell spikes and such. Basically a low brow alchemist.

Other than, of course, all the hundreds of weapons he makes.

Oh, sorry you're right of course. (sarcasm on) WS's can >>get<< money by selling the weapons he makes back to vendors. But to actually >>make a net profit<< on stuff made, spikes was it.

Exactly my point.  Why are almost none of the weapons made by a weaponsmith sold to players?  A player made weapon is much better than the purchased equivalent. The problem is that the cost to the players is still WAY to high because the EQ crafting system doesn't compensate player time and effort and it NEVER will without a complete unfucking of the mindset at sony.  And now you will see why the EQ2 crafting system is still horribly, horribly broken.

Hell, player made armor was almost twice as good as store bought stuff of the equivelant level while I was playing and thats not counting the stat and resist bonuses.  The problem was that I could buy store bought armor for 1/5th to 1/10th the cost of player made and it was generally good enough for what I needed it to do because of EQ2's asstastic conning/mob difficulty system.

[Sobelius]

Other than it's more or less exactly what Horizons let you do.   If you were a weaponsmith, you'd say I wanna make a... 1h sword.  Because I'm a mid level smith, I can make it out of steel(or whatever), which determines the base stats of the sword.  Then I can go and choose the visual effect of the weapon...  A curved wide scimitar blade, or a single-edged katana blade, etc... and you could change the style of the hilt, and I believe a tassel hanging from the hilt.

Yeah -- I shot that duck in my original post when I said "Horizons briefly promised something like this (I remember Bowman making some statement about the astronomical number of items people could create in the game by varying blades/hilts/pommels/tassels on weapons, for example -- all done in an engine where these details were impossible to see, so in the end was pointless...too bad)."

I played the Horizons Beta and so badly wished some of their crafting game, pawn broker system, and item/inventory management system could have been ported over to a better adventure game. The world had some amazing landscape visuals; the visuals for housing "under construction" was interesting and the concept of being able to work on other people's buildings by fulfilling a contract (and getting paid at the price the builder offered) was unique in my experience. But a truly horrible adventure game combined with terrible network coding > the other unique/innovative elements.

[Samwise]

The SWG experimentation/subcomponent system theoretically let you choose which stats to emphasize - when experimenting, you could improve DPS, or HAM cost, or accuracy, or durability.  And different subcomponents had different effects as well; a scoped rifle had higher accuracy but higher HAM cost, and a stocked rifle had higher damage but lower speed and higher HAM cost.

The problem is that they never bothered to balance any of this.  HAM costs were absolutely negligible if you had buffs, since the buffs would literally quintuple your base stats.  Speed didn't matter for most people, since the firing speed skills went from reasonable to infinite when you got the master box in your combat profession.  And that aside, the bonuses for experimentation just weren't thought out at all - putting an experimention point into DPS would boost damage by maybe 5% and putting that same point into accuracy would boost it by less than 1%, relative to all the accuracy mods that you had already.  So no weaponsmith ever did anything but put all their experimentation points into DPS, and those who tried "experimenting" with other strategies never sold a weapon.

Theoretically, the combat revamp might try to fix this, since it's really just a matter of tweaking numbers.  But I doubt it.   

Sorry, I'm derailing a bit.

[Margalis]

No, I think that's on-topic. Systems that are too open are hard to balance, and tend to wind up in global minima and maxima. You might be able to tweak 50 parameters, but it will probably turn out that one set of tweaks is basically strictly better than the other.

[CmdrSlack]

Ditto the weaponsmith who's only way to get money to work on crafting was to sell spikes and such. Basically a low brow alchemist.

At issue is that altho some screamed bloody murder about it, the various crafts were able to get some plat moving by working that interdependence. Alchemists and WS have pretty much no adventure market at all. There is talk of making the writs (city, wholesaler, workshop) more lucritive, but those would be tough to balance.

What's sad (and shocking) is SOE appears to moving forward despite many people complaining about it. I think part of the (over-) reaction is SOE's very visceral response to so many alchemists at 50, buying top end horses, and sitting on mountains of plat. Obviously you have to read between the lines to get that (and maybe put on an aluminum hat too) but it sure looks that way to me.

Basically, an interesting twist on the whole I-wanns-bake-bread portion of these games that they're basically backing down from as being Too Hard To Balance As Is So We're Just Giving Up. .

Maybe in EQ3 (!) they'll get it working...

I keep wondering why crafting continues be the model:

- collect parts
- collect recipes
- combine said parts with said recipe to produce predetermined object
- provide a system where the parts, recipes and final product are balanced for the time vs. cost vs. reward triangle

Why can't crafters...craft?

Why not give me the ability to put together multiple pieces/styles/colors/materials in new ways and to make truly different and interesting looking objects?

Imagine as a crafter you get to play with something like the CoH character creator, but for making armor, weapons, furniture -- whatever -- and the system already comes loaded with basic building blocks that you combine in a multitude of styles. Add on such things as particle effects or procs...but let the players decide how to combine -- obviously within some sort of checks and balances system.

Bottom line is, I have never seen much craft in crafting. Horizons briefly promised something like this (I remember Bowman making some statement about the astronomical number of items people could create in the game by varying blades/hilts/pommels/tassels on weapons, for example -- all done in an engine where these details were impossible to see, so in the end was pointless...too bad).

Well, there's always Second Life.  You can pretty much build anything you can figure out how to build.  Scripting language + 3D modelling tools = lots of crap you can conceivably make.