Supercapitals, Ponies and Rainbows.

[Numtini]

Whether your first six months are fun or not has a very direct relation to whether or not you are in CONDI. Your options if you're not are slim to none and slim's out of town.

[eldaec]

Another thing CCP won't do but would help enormously is take a look at buff/debuff mechanics.

If it were possible to stack debuffs on specific targets, subcaps would be able to multiply up their power in a way that would be massively more powerful against single large targets than against balanced fleets.

It might also reduce POS shooting and lead to slightly more interesting support ships than the current logistics mediocrity.

I hold no hope for CCP ever doing this when they regularly claim there are literally no ideas for roles for new ships (I can only assume they have never played another computer game in their lives because jesus christ it is not difficult to come up with a dozen concepts without having to think for more than 10 seconds)

Whether your first six months are fun or not has a very direct relation to whether or not you are in CONDI. Your options if you're not are slim to none and slim's out of town.

Not just your first six months. We tried other alliances and holy shit I'm not doing that again.

[Pezzle]

Inventing a ship to kill off a ship that has big balance problems is doing it wrong.

Why? That's how it's done in real life.

I'm sorry, I though we were playing a video game that was striving for some level of viability for all players.  Balance in this case is not MAD. 

[tmp]

If it were possible to stack debuffs on specific targets (..)

It used to be. I forgot what specific use got that eventually nerfed.

[DLRiley]

No one new will ever join Eve if they have to grind being a spearman for 6 months.

Not what I meant. I meant that, in real warfare, if you've got some sort of overwhelming advantage -- either people invent a counter, or you win. :)

Since "them winning a crushing victory forever and ever" is out, and it appears that -- tactically -- there is no real solution, the EVE devs are forced into one of two solutions.

Either nerf the overwhelming advantage bit or develop a counter.

Something like cheap destroyers fitted with capital ship-killers is actually not only a kinda workable idea, but is the sort of tactic/response real world would come up with. (As noted above with carriers, submarines, etc).

The worst thing you could do would be to develop an even bigger ship, capable of killing capital ships. Then everyone would just move on to flying that. Retasking something like t2 or t3 destroyers and forcing the enemy to start dedicating resources to handling them is at least a leg up on that. Every pilot flying an escort ship isn't one flying a capital ship, and as long as the new anti-capital ship ships aren't capable of face-raping battleships, well....

Plus it fits into their already developed "big and slow can't hit fast and small" concept. You won't want to risk your blob of supercapitals until you clean out all their nasty little "I might die, but I'm taking two months of supercap with me" gankers.

anything that hits hard enough to bring a supercapp to the red is hard enough to one shot gg a lesser ship.

[Thrawn]

anything that hits hard enough to bring a supercapp to the red is hard enough to one shot gg a lesser ship.

Like shooting torpedos at an interceptor and firing your dreadnaughts guns at the frigate that has you tackled.  So unfair to just one shot smaller ships. 

[JWIV]

Inventing a ship to kill off a ship that has big balance problems is doing it wrong.

Why? That's how it's done in real life.

No one new will ever join Eve if they have to grind being a spearman for 6 months.

Everyone in EVE "grinds" flying a small tackler/ewar/bomber/whatever for at least 6 months. Then generally have more fun than the capital guys do, because a Rifter pilot never ever has to shoot or rep a POS.

Takes almost 6 months before you can fly a mediocre battleship properly. These are arguably the most enjoyable 6 months you'll ever have in EVE Online : The Spaceship Themed Bad Game.

Yes.  This a 1000 times.   You may feel goofy flying a rifter in the presence of the various battleships/cruisers, etc.  Don't.  Unlike that group of poor bitter vets whom are locked into the hell of set optimal and push butan, you get to zip around with your afterburners blazing brightly locking down shit to your hearts content.

[eldaec]

If it were possible to stack debuffs on specific targets (..)

It used to be. I forgot what specific use got that eventually nerfed.

Dampeners. But only because all current ewar has a terrible design which leaves the target ship either utterly useless or entirely unaffected.

[Kitsune]

I think if they just made it so that nothing supercap could hit anything subcap, ever, even if it's not moving and target painted, a lot of the problem would go away.  A balance of caps raping subcaps, supercaps raping caps, and subcaps raping supercaps would force people to field substantial mixed force fleets rather than simply plopping as many supers as possible on the field with zero support.  Titan weapons shouldn't be turned on anything smaller than a POS or a capital, any more than the death star's main gun should be used to shoot down X-wings.

[Goumindong]

Dampeners and tracking disruptors still stack, they just don't have enough effect to matter with capitals (supes are immune, dreds are immune when sieged).

Previously ECM stacked (They provided a set number and once the sum of the number exceeded your sensor strength you were jammed forever) but it was changed for obvious reasons.

Soft counters in the form of ewar aren't ever going to be strong enough to counter super-capitals without them also being strong enough to ruin smaller gangs. Its not worth trying. Also because as Eladec mentions, ewar has an inherent factor of "entirely useful or entirely useless"

[Lantyssa]

It's possible to make it so stacking only works only on capitals or supercaptials.  There's no reason to do so for subcaps.

[Sir T]

Yeah but ECM only works on carriers (aside from non sieged dreads) so why bother? You will just be nerfing carriers.

Of course you could take away Supercaps ECM immunity but that would leave them vulnerable to being pointed by rifters, and we cant have that.

[eldaec]

That would still be horrible and would actually overpower subcaps because the design of ewar is so mind numbingly terrible.

They need a debuff system redesigned from the ground up. It won't happen because it would take significant effort away from RMT in stations, but would have benefits across much of eve.

[Numtini]

Not just your first six months. We tried other alliances and holy shit I'm not doing that again.

It's not just "having fun in a corp" it's getting into one at all. Until you can fly a fully T2 fit battleship, you have very limited options and you have essentially none until you can at least fly a BS of some sort. When BAT moved south I wanted to get into the Max 2 war last summer (on the right side) and it was really hard to find a spot even with a pet. Having said that. I could join LAWN again in a minute. Though I'm not sure how bright their future is. Even the old pirate corp, the Bastards, that I flew with as a Hellcat wants 4m SP and that's just to gank newbies in lowsec.

[Morat20]

anything that hits hard enough to bring a supercapp to the red is hard enough to one shot gg a lesser ship.

Only if you design it stupid. I'm talking weapons that are only effective against supercaps -- specifically designed anti-supercap missiles or whatnot, that can't even hit or track anything smaller. (IE: Giant bonuses against supercaps, huge penalties against anything else).

That's just an extension of the sub/carrier concept mentioned above -- carriers were forced to surround themselves with escorts if they wanted to survive, because they were pretty darn defenseless against subs.

I'm not talking "make a bigger hammer" -- that what lies mudflation. I'm talking make a specific, anti-supercap tool. Which means your supercap fleets will have to much smaller and fly surrounded by escorts if they want to live to get to the target. Supercap blobs will just be eaten alive by roaming hit-and-run gangs of smaller, cheaper ships fitted with anti-supercap weaponry. (Said gangs would be vulnerable to anyone fitted out to deal with BS or smaller ships, since their anti-supercap weapons are freaking useless against battleships and the like)

[Sir T]

Without disagreeing with what Morat said, there is however the factor of the Jump drive, which means that the Supercaps dont have to nove through hostile space getting eaten alive. They can just appear when needed, wherever needed, and when its safe. Which means the opposition would still have to be pretty cagy with having a fleet of super-killers ready.

However that would increase the level of strategy in the game, you have to admit.

[Morat20]

Fuck, I'd just add a super-cap killer to stealth bombers. :) Watch a blob of those fuckers uncloak and blow up a dozen supercaps before being podded would be amusing.

[eldaec]

specifically designed anti-supercap missiles or whatnot, that can't even hit or track anything smaller. (IE: Giant bonuses against supercaps, huge penalties against anything else).

These already exist. They are called 'Torpedoes' or 'Citadel Torpedoes'. Also Bombs to a different extent.

[Morat20]

These already exist. They are called 'Torpedoes' or 'Citadel Torpedoes'. Also Bombs to a different extent.

Hmph. I've never played the game at that level. If they exist, they need to be buffed a bit. The idea is to make a weapon that forces either supercaps to unblob (either by making large groups of them dangerously risky, or by requiring supercaps to need non-supercap escorts) -- without just creating a new ship everyone uses and becomes the new problem.

[Comstar]

Anti-Supercap Bombs. You can't carry many, they don't work vs subcaps (meaning you either load one or the other pretty much unless you have mitch cow blockade runner with you) and now a blob of supercaps is a blob of dead supercaps.

[Kageru]

Not just your first six months. We tried other alliances and holy shit I'm not doing that again.

It's not just "having fun in a corp" it's getting into one at all.

Goons are pretty much 70-90% of what makes Eve tolerable. And they have a culture that celebrates the Hero Rifter.

If you want to join a Leet-PvP corp like PL then yeah, but your catass trackies on and get ready for 1-2 years of training, corp hopping and building a rep.

[Stabs]

Some of us really enjoy Eve without being in Goons or an elite pvp corp. There's a lot more to the game than just those two options.

[Fordel]

You could mine Veldspar for example. 

[Stabs]

Funnily enough I was just mining Veldspar. In nullsec. In my Crow.

Just as well I didn't get killed, some of the meaner people might have mocked my fit.

[Phildo]

You'd make more isk/hour doing that in a Vexor or Arbitrator.  Just saying.

[Stabs]

I just needed 999 Veld for a storyline mission. It made sense to me at the time.

[Morat20]

You'd make more isk/hour doing that in a Vexor or Arbitrator.  Just saying.

I use my old Vexor for mining. I think I once refit a Myrmidion as a salvager and was following a corp-mate as he ratted in 0.0. (This was before I could fly a BS, and my skills made 0.0 ratting in a BC a bit iffy).

I was having a solid bit of fun running L4's in high sec (like 0.6) and selling the occasionally good piece of loot, collecting the salvage, and melting down the rest. I rather enjoyed manufacturing rigs with it and selling them as well.

There was something deeply pleasant to log on and have made millions while offline. (There's also the fun "Oh wait, I have research agents. I haven't collected from them in months" fire sales).

[eldaec]

I just needed 999 Veld for a storyline mission. It made sense to me at the time.

You'd make more isk/hour buying it. Just saying.

[Lantyssa]

The 999 quest makes you go out and harvest it.  Doesn't complete until you do.  I know because I got it five times in a row and I have a stack of Veldspar sitting in my cargo bay.

[eldaec]

In summary, fuck CCP right in the sandbox.

[Sir T]

In summary, fuck CCP right in the sandbox.

But that could chafe my willy.

[Stabs]

I just needed 999 Veld for a storyline mission. It made sense to me at the time.

You'd make more isk/hour buying it. Just saying.

There was none on the market.

[Stabs]

I just needed 999 Veld for a storyline mission. It made sense to me at the time.

You'd make more isk/hour buying it. Just saying.

There was none on the market.

The 999 quest makes you go out and harvest it.  Doesn't complete until you do.  I know because I got it five times in a row and I have a stack of Veldspar sitting in my cargo bay.

I think you may be mistaken. Try moving the ore out of your cargo bay and into your items hangar then completing the mission. Also double check you have enough.

It's certainly possible to complete the higher level ore storylines with purchased Kernite and Omber.

[Stabs]

Back on topic

Does the Goon victory at VFK indicate Supercaps are not as broken as we all thought or was it just a case of exceptional circumstances?

[Comstar]

Exceptional Circumstances. We were fighting under a jammer, in our capital system, with all our allies, and enemies made a strategic mistake of attacking Stalingrad-On-the-Volga level.