TF2 Uber Update

[K9]

Going with a Mafia theme

I should go play some TF2, it's been a while

[Malakili]

As much as I love that Valve continues to support this game with free updates, I feel like they've just added way too much to the game, way too much variation.

[luckton]

Looking forward to more Tim Schafer comedy antics in the Medic video 

[Kail]

As much as I love that Valve continues to support this game with free updates, I feel like they've just added way too much to the game, way too much variation.

Ya, pretty much my sentiments.  It just looks stupid now.  Not like funny stupid, either, like inconsistent and random stupid.  Like whoever did their original art design left and they couldn't get anyone competent to replace them so now they're just taping random shit like tiki masks and cactuses to everything.  And every new weapon has it's own little effects and it's just a clusterfuck of abilities and those goddamn hats now.  Adding yet more shit is not going to bring me back, I suspect.

Still interesed to see if they crank out another video, though.  Those were pretty cool.  Seems odd to be five years out and still haven't finished that series.

[Valmorian]

That's funny, I LOVE that they keep adding new things.  Helps keep the game fresh.  As for the aesthetic, I don't really care one way or the other. 

[Musashi]

Every time something awesome happens some of you fuckstains have to shit up the thread with this nostalgic 'not what it was' bullshit.  Shut the fuck up.  This is the best shooting game ever made.  If you're playing a shooting game on the internet, and it's not this game, you're flat out doing it wrong.  This game is so goddamn well done that litterally the only possible improvement (and I say improvement fully well knowing that term in this case is totally relative to how much you want the following) will be when the genre advances to mmo fps.  

And you dog gone retards do the same fucking thing in every fucking thread.  Stop it.  You're entitled to your opinions of course, but when you're being emo pussies expect to be called out.  

"Oh god the art direction."  What the fuck.  Seriously?  I literally do art for a living.  I love art.  I'm one of those hippie douchebags that thinks that everything he sees is art.  But even I am dumbfounded at this statement.  They add mob guns and all of a sudden it's shark jumping in your mind?  The art direction in this game IS shark jumping.  One hundred years from now in some digital art museum, a tightly wound British docent will explain that this is when Gabe Newell's art director screamed, "HAHA LOL GG!" to the world, and in doing so changed all our lives forever.

"Oh there's too many variables."  While somewhat more legitimate, still falls on the 'eyeroll' end of the convolution spectrum.  It's not convoluted.  It's very well, and constantly balanced.  Except spies.  Fuck spies.  When you say that, all I hear is, "People who play all the time have all this stuff.  I don't know what do."  You're fine with stock equipment.  Stop being a bitch.

The only test this game has to pass is this:  Have any other online shooters had as much stickiness?  No.  Not quake.  Not counterstrike.  Not TF classic.  Not even my beloved ET.  And if anyone even thinks about saying Halo, I will kill you with my thoughts.  Ergo, it's the best.  Now fire this shit up, or eat a bag of ass.

[Mrbloodworth]

/thread

[Valmorian]

The only test this game has to pass is this:  Have any other online shooters had as much stickiness?  No.  Not quake.  Not counterstrike.  Not TF classic.  Not even my beloved ET.  And if anyone even thinks about saying Halo, I will kill you with my thoughts.  Ergo, it's the best.  Now fire this shit up, or eat a bag of ass.

While I totally agree that TF2 is the best shooter out there, to be fair counterstrike still regularly has more players:

As of a couple seconds ago...

Current Players    Peak Today         Game
 
53,954    69,816         Counter-Strike
51,793    65,808         Counter-Strike: Source
28,943    36,148         Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 - Multiplayer
22,304    30,324         Football Manager 2011
20,366    26,451         Call of Duty Black Ops - Multiplayer
17,741    17,741         Team Fortress 2

[Malakili]

"Oh there's too many variables."  While somewhat more legitimate, still falls on the 'eyeroll' end of the convolution spectrum.  It's not convoluted.  It's very well, and constantly balanced.  Except spies.  Fuck spies.  When you say that, all I hear is, "People who play all the time have all this stuff.  I don't know what do."  You're fine with stock equipment.  Stop being a bitch.

Last time I played TF2 I decided to arbitrarily limit myself to the vanilla loadouts and I still topped servers consistently, this isn't about being butthurt over not having the weapons.  Its about adding things into the game which prevent intelligent decision making.  One of Valve's great achievements with TF2 (That they talk about a LOT in the dev commentary) is how its very easy to see whats going on quickly and identify things quickly.   

The weapons might technically be "balanced" but the way I play the game takes into account things like "I will die in 2 more rocket hits" and that matters with what I'm going to do when I see a soldier.  If they have 3 different rocket launchers all with varying damage models, you basically take away a lot of that decision making because you can't change the way you play because you have no idea what the fuck you're going to get shot with.

Lastly, I fully realize that most people don't play like this, TF2 is still great for that.  But for me, it just doesn't do it anymore.   Now I'll sit back while you all rip me for not understanding what fun is.

[Valmorian]

If they have 3 different rocket launchers all with varying damage models, you basically take away a lot of that decision making because you can't change the way you play because you have no idea what the fuck you're going to get shot with.

I am certain I am a FAR worse player than you, and I have absolutely no trouble telling what weapons other players are using.

[Musashi]

So the game isn't fun anymore because you can't predict who and what's going to kill you with as much precision as you could when there were fewer weapons.  Correct me if that summary is off.

I'm sorry, but I can't follow why that's a good thing at all.  I might agree with you if it ever got to the levels of mmo button mashing sillyness - every character has three different forms all with 30 different playstyles.  But come on man.  You can still play like that.  It's just harder now that there's more stuff.  Other people might feel like it's more interesting that way.  It's not like you can't peek out and see what the soldier is carrying.  They're pretty easy to differentiate.

[Malakili]

So the game isn't fun anymore because you can't predict who and what's going to kill you with as much precision as you could when there were fewer weapons.  Correct me if that summary is off.

I'm sorry, but I can't follow why that's a good thing at all.  I might agree with you if it ever got to the levels of mmo button mashing sillyness - every character has three different forms all with 30 different playstyles.  But come on man.  You can still play like that.  It's just harder now that there's more stuff.  Other people might feel like it's more interesting that way.  It's not like you can't peek out and see what the soldier is carrying.  They're pretty easy to differentiate.

Its fairly on point.  I really enjoy working out those very fine grained details.  Its one of the reasons I still think Quake 3 (Live) is probably the best shooter ever made.

Its not like TF2 went from being amazing to shit.  It went from being amazing to something that isn't my best option anymore, and thats really all that matters.

[Kail]

This game is so goddamn well done that litterally the only possible improvement (and I say improvement fully well knowing that term in this case is totally relative to how much you want the following) will be when the genre advances to mmo fps.  

This is the only way the game could improve?  So then, by your own argument, any other changes to the game would be bad, right?  Hey, what a coincidence, that's what I'm arguing, too.

TF2 is a fine game, I have something like 400 hours logged, but the changes they are making annoy me.  Since this thread is about changes to the game, pardon me if I bitch about the ones I don't like.

I don't care if the art direction in this game is intentionally shark jumping, it's getting fucking retarded.  You can't just throw in random tacky bullshit and then expect me to suddenly think it looks good because they were trying to go for random tacky bullshit.  It's not like the look of the game was vastly improved by sticking googly eyes on the pyro and giving the sniper a jar of urine to chuck at enemies.  I can understand maybe people having differences of opinion, but there comes a point at which you have to step back and look at what you just said, and I think it's somewhere before "someday, this game will be put in a museum as the first game to give players the ability to beat people to death with a fish while wearing a beer hat."

But by all means, keep digging on a game because it has so much "stickiness," a metric which only you have access to.  Maybe they'll let you pre-order Call of Juarez and you can unlock a novelty foam cowboy hat for your scout, I know your artist's soul will thrill at the subtle aesthetic genius behind that move, while us plebs ignorantly assume it's a cheap cash grab.

[Musashi]

This game is so goddamn well done that litterally the only possible improvement (and I say improvement fully well knowing that term in this case is totally relative to how much you want the following) will be when the genre advances to mmo fps. 

This is the only way the game could improve?  So then, by your own argument, any other changes to the game would be bad, right?  Hey, what a coincidence, that's what I'm arguing, too.

Changes that are not explicit improvement is not the same thing as bad.  So, uh.  No.

I'll just spend a little time with you, as this I think is where you're missing the point.  Yes it's a cash grab.  But in the history of cash grabs, it's probably the most innocuous one ever.  Except in your case, apparently, as the aesthetic is overwhelming for you.  And as I said, you're welcome to that opinion.  But it seems to me an irresponsible position, as the aestetic started out very obviously trying to be overwelmingly, overtly, over the top.  So, for example, from my perspective it looks like more of the same.  But in a game as popular and successfull as this one, the fact that they have not started making weapons (or other game altering things) that are exclusive to the cash shop is the real story here.  Yes, there are hats out the yang, and it's very hard to get them all without shelling out.  Yes there are hats that are promotions only obtained by purchase.  But none of these things have any effect what-so-ever on the gameplay.  They are, in fact, just a bunch of fucking hats.  Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo wat.  For that reason, even if upon viewing these hats, your mind is literally blown, I hope you can appreciate the fact that what these hats accomplish is a shiload of free content for you.  The hats pay for the continued development.  And while the point that the continuing infiltration of offensive art - in your opinion - is actually not a boon for you or others with your ill-considered opinion is not lost on me....  They're litterally selling people imaginary hats.  Do you understand the magnitude here?  The hats do nothing.  They are selling nothing, and instead of blowing the money on hookers and blow (well all of it anyway), they're using it to pay for more stuff for you.  Don't you get it?  You're saying, "I don't like these hats they're using to pay for the stuff they're giving me for free.  The stuff looks funny."

OH MY GOD SHUT THE FUCK UP AND GET SOME HATS YOU STUPID MOTHER FUCKER.

[Malakili]

I also don't mind the store - the point being that they'd rather just run the economy in house instead of having one pop up on eBay or whatever people use to sell shit these days.   Even if everything was given to all players for free, no unlocks, no finding items, no achievements, whatever, I still think their addition hurts more than helps the gameplay.  Obviously I'm in the minority by a pretty wide margin, but I still find it to be the case.

[Soln]

I think I might print this out and frame it for the home

/threadageddon

[Kail]

Yes it's a cash grab.  But in the history of cash grabs, it's probably the most innocuous one ever.  Except in your case, apparently, as the aesthetic is overwhelming for you.  And as I said, you're welcome to that opinion.  But it seems to me an irresponsible position, as the aestetic started out very obviously trying to be overwelmingly, overtly, over the top.  So, for example, from my perspective it looks like more of the same. 

These two points are probably what we're butting heads over.  

1- I've seen better cash shops (League of Legends, for example), largely because the idea that they'd just decide to add one on after I already bought the game is not endearing to me.  Especially since the money is going towards making a game I enjoy less enjoyable for me.  It's not like the game was shit when it launched, so aside from the addition of new maps, I'm not really in favor of the "they need money to make more content" idea.  If they'd designed the game from the bottom up to be a cash shop, I don't think I'd object, but it's a significant departure from the game I signed up for.

2- The aesthetic was always over the top, but previously it was A: clear and B: consistent.  You saw a soldier, you could identify him very quickly and guess what his abilities were, even if you were new to the game.  Now, though, he's running around looking like Carmen Miranda with a grenade belt and combat boots and I don't know which of the half dozen different rocket launchers he's got in his backpack.  If they'd given him different hats but kept him looking like a soldier, that would be one thing, but they're decking him out with viking helmets and greek helmets and the Cat in the Hat hats and all kinds of stuff that breaks the metaphor.  A better option, in my opinion, would be something like League of Legends, where there are a bunch of stupid skins but they're full character skins (so the character looks consistent at least, rather than just having a stupid hat on a normal skin) or Brink where you can kit your security guy out in any one of a dozen different hats but they all look like something a security character would wear.  

I'm probably overselling the whole thing (OMG I HATE VALVE FOREVER I QUIYT), but it does bug me, and it is always there.  There's always people wearing this crap, and it always nags at me.  And like I said, I don't begrudge them the desire to make money, I just wish they hadn't gone about it in this way.  They put out two Left 4 Dead games in the meantime, you'd think that they'd be able to throw together "Team Fortress: Ultimate" or something, where the cash shop stuff is integrated into the game rather than bolted on.

Like, for this update, it's allegedly Mafia themed.  I could maybe see League of Legends doing this and releasing some mafia themed skins or something, sure.  But for this, you've got a few new hats and some weapons which are probably inspired by gangster flicks, but still being carried around by a skinny dude in a bright red t-shirt and running shoes.  Which makes me kind of wonder what the point is.  Though I am looking forward to the video, at the very least.

[Ingmar]

The character silhouette and the way it moves hasn't changed though, I've certainly not had trouble with IDing classes, even after the parade of silly hats.

[Kail]

Ya, the silhouette's the same, but the information it conveys is different.  The reason it's important to quickly identify someone's class is to get an idea of what they can do, but now you need to know what they're carrying as well, which the game doesn't tell you.

And the silhouette is only part of how the character looks, part of the idea behind the original design was also to let novice players know what each class does.  Originally, a new player who's never heard of Team Fortress before could look at an engineer and know that he built things, look at the soldier and know that he was a fairly heavy combat type guy, and so on.  But now, the soldier's got, say, a samurai hat on, does that mean he's got a sword?  Is he really good at melee?  It's just not as straightforward.

[Samwise]

A soldier is still a big burly guy carrying a rocket launcher.  You can probably guess he's gonna shoot a rocket at you and take a few more hits than the little skinny guy.

[Kail]

A soldier is still a big burly guy carrying a rocket launcher.  You can probably guess he's gonna shoot a rocket at you and take a few more hits than the little skinny guy.

You can guess that, and you'd be wrong, if the solder had a Rocket Jumper and the Scout had a Bonk.

[Musashi]

So, despite some really bad examples, it's clear to me that Kail doesn't like all that stuff they're adding.  So instead of shitting on your chest some more, I'm just going to once again try and reinforce the idea that there's a cash shop that doesn't interfere with the balance of the game AT ALL.  And in return for enduring that cash shop and the sundry hats it foists upon your precious person, you get free stuff.  You get a popular game with people willingly paying for servers.

I haven't played LoL since beta, and I can't really talk about their cash shop.  But even if it's awesome, and for the sake of argument I'll say it is, you can bet it was inpired by this cash shop here.  Maybe it would be a good idea for a broader perspective.  So here goes.  In a sea of money grubbing corporate dick holsters who can't wait to figure out a way to monetize their product by shoving facebook credits up your ass, Valve does an end-around that delivers in pretty much every way through the vehicle of imaginary hats.  It's so beautiful that it makes me misty, man.  And I'm a grown ass man.  You don't like the aesthetic?  It's such an ancillary concern that it's pretty much irrelevant.  If you hate it that much, I guess you gotta hate.

[Samwise]

A soldier is still a big burly guy carrying a rocket launcher.  You can probably guess he's gonna shoot a rocket at you and take a few more hits than the little skinny guy.

You can guess that, and you'd be wrong, if the solder had a Rocket Jumper and the Scout had a Bonk.

I agree, the fact that a complete noob would not be able to predict the actions of his opponents with 100% accuracy makes it a terribly boring game.  

[Nija]

I uninstalled TF2 about a year ago. It was getting way out of hand.

It's filled with silly horseshit and all the players worth playing against have long since quit.

I'm sure it's fine for pubbie stomping, but there are dozens of games better suited for that.

[Kail]

I agree, the fact that a complete noob would not be able to predict the actions of his opponents with 100% accuracy makes it a terribly boring game.  

Huh?  Don't strawman this.  I'm not quite that stupid.

But even if it's awesome, and for the sake of argument I'll say it is, you can bet it was inpired by this cash shop here.

Might want to get a source for that, given that League of Legends launched in 2009 and the TF2 store just went live last September.

The thing is, though, I don't care if they're "giving this stuff away for free."  I'm not sure why you're not seeing this.  You can't just show up at someone's house one day and repaint their shit, and then tell them to stop yelling at you because you did it for free, and if the aesthetics bother them, it's such an ancilliary concern that it's irrelevant.  They didn't give the game away for free, I already paid for it, and I do not feel it is greatly enhanced by adding toilet plunger hats to it, so any "upgrade" which increases the frequency at which I'm going to run into them is not a free service for which I feel grateful.

And really, aesthetics are about half of what this update is (or more, if you really believe it when you say all these new weapons have no impact on balance).  So saying they're irrelevant is kind of missing the point of a thread discussing the update.  What do you want us to talk about, how awesome the game is?   I mean, I love the game, it's a lot of fun.  But the update is about new hats.  So that's what I'm talking about.

[Musashi]

You can't just show up at someone's house one day and repaint their shit, and then tell them to stop yelling at you because you did it for free, and if the aesthetics bother them, it's such an ancilliary concern that it's irrelevant.

Bad analogy homeboy.  Try again.

[Prospero]

Do we really have to do this again? We need some sort of official TF2 changes anger me reference thread we can just add to the first post of every Tf2 update thread and call it a day. Honestly I think we could shorten a lot of threads around here that way. The politics forums might fade away entirely.

I'm curious to see what the big changes are; rumors have been a F2P model which makes a fair amount of sense. Monday wasn't terribly exciting although I'm always happy to see new Valve maps, and new payload maps in particular.

[Valmorian]

A soldier is still a big burly guy carrying a rocket launcher.  You can probably guess he's gonna shoot a rocket at you and take a few more hits than the little skinny guy.

You can guess that, and you'd be wrong, if the solder had a Rocket Jumper and the Scout had a Bonk.

In the VAST majority of cases, the classes maintain their domain.

[Prospero]

Also in the Bonk case the player sees a ton of big "MISS!" graphics and the guy has a super speedy blur effect and looks like he might be hard to hit. It still fits the character.

[Strazos]

And the Soldier with the Rocket Jumper? You should be happy if he's using it - means he's not much of a threat. Lets try something here...

Scout - avoid his shots or melee, just kill the kid.
Soldier - Dodge rockets, try not to melee, shoot him in the face.
Pyro - Stay away at all costs, shoot him/her.
Demo - Dodge nades, watch for stickies, stay away and shoot him.
Engineer - shoot him in the face, then shoot his stupid passive-aggressive sentries from afar. Or use a spy/uber.
Heavy - Stay away, shoot in the face.
Sniper - Get to medium/short range and shoot/slash him, or snipe him first.
Spy - always be on the lookout for these bastards, shoot them dead.
Medic - shoot them first. In the face.

Maybe it's just the way I play, but my approaches to fighting different classes hasn't changed a whole lot since launch. The only classes that have fundamentally different playstyles are the options for Demo, Spy, and maybe engineer. And those different styles, except for maybe Spy depending on watch/knife options, are sub-optimal (DemoKnight, mini-sentries) under most conditions.

And the crack on the Jarate? Shit, that item was a god-send and is crazy-useful.

[Strazos]

http://www.teamfortress.com/uberupdate/

Finally, Snipers get a primary weapon that may have a clear reason to use it over the stock rifle. Will be more interesting if the new rifle has a bit less base damage - I would actually prefer trade-offs to a flat-out upgrade.

[Prospero]

It's base recharge is slower than the standard rifle.

[Strazos]

Where did you find that out? If true, that's very interesting.

[Nija]

Demo - Dodge nades, watch for stickies, stay away and shoot him.

And watch out for the fucking broadsword. Or the shield. So stupid.

[Strazos]

Sure, you might get charge killed from time to time, but a good demo with stickies is almost infinitely more dangerous.

As a sniper, I cannot count the number of demos I've headshot as they charge in a straight line...