Good character for a total newb

[Thrawn]

With a terrible team? You just sort of stand around holding your dick in your hand cause she can't do shit on her own.

Indeed, I always remember a game I played with Hoax where he unintentionaly was getting last blows and had tons of kills on Sona, completely fed.  It didn't matter at all because all he could do was support better than average. 

[Malakili]

Sona is my ranked game go to character, with a halfway decent team you can really carry them through proper support/items.

With a terrible team? You just sort of stand around holding your dick in your hand cause she can't do shit on her own.

I agree with this.  Although I don't play rannked yet.  But whenever I play support in general it ends poorly because I end up supporting people who are terrible.

[K9]

I have a lot of fun playing Janna as support, her toolset makes her pretty hard to kill and decent at saving sub-par teammates. With a good teammate she's a boss.

[Margalis]

There is no worse feeling than playing support well on a sucky team. There just isn't anything you can do. Every other role if played well can at least somewhat carry.

I'm not a big fan of the 0 CS support game. I mean it's obviously effective but it also ensures that no matter how well support plays it can never do anything but support.

[HaemishM]

I've seen Sona solo the top lane against two players while I jungled with Yi. Good support players are worth their weight in gold.

[Prospero]

There is no worse feeling than playing support well on a sucky team. There just isn't anything you can do. Every other role if played well can at least somewhat carry.

Tanking with an incompetent team also sucks. There's no such thing as a carry Amumu.

[HaemishM]

So I don't think I like Olaf. I got mightily owned at lunch using him. Me and a Caitlyn started top lane against a Yi and Akali combo, who just kept gangbanging me early until I got a few items. Then later on, the other team's Amumu and Karthus would just fucking roll in with whoever else in tow and start destroying shit. I think Amumu was at like 4k hit points with 2 warmog's and a sunfire cape. I think Olaf just doesn't do enough burst damaging for me.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Am I just a terrible jungler? I've been trying a couple chars no and I constantly get people bitching about not getting any ganks as early as level 4.  I get lanes dying left and right then blaming me when they're 0/4 at the 5min mark.  Then, when they're fed team starts pushing into my jungle and ganking me I get blamed for that too!

[Rasix]

So, Wukong is on sale Friday.  I'm assuming this might be a good purchase for someone that primarily plays top lane bruisers?

[statisticalfool]

Who are you jungling as?

Most ganking junglers do gank at level 4 (and some of the heavy gankers, like Rammus, start at 2). Most routes which aren't involving counter jungling involve doing one partial clear and one full clear, which gets you almost always to level 4.

I mean, when I'm playing Warwick, who has little ganking potential pre 6, I pretty much just let my lanes know that I'll cover if they need it, but I'm just trying to get six as fast as possible.

[statisticalfool]

As someone who is constantly annoyed by wukong, yes, he's worth it now.

[Mosesandstick]

Wukong has no sustain, but good damage, escapes and utility in team fights. He's definitely enjoyable.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Initially I was trying shyvana and while she's good at the actual jungle, I feel like her ganking potential is kind of bad since she needs to build up a good slowing weapon to be useful.

After that I've been going fiddle but again, by level 4 he just doesn't seem beefy enough to do much besides harass a opposing lane.

[HaemishM]

I like the Yi jungling, personally. 

Shyvana seems like she does good damage output and can be quite annoying, but then you get to the end of the game and see her kills aren't really that high. Not sure what is up with her.

I saw the Wukong sale and I'm tempted. I'm REALLY tempted to get the Pharoah Nasus skin which is also going on sale. I got Nassus with IP and bought his Galactic (read: Stargate) skin, but the Pharaoh one looks really cool.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I've played her a LOT since she was released since the character really appeals to me so I feel I've got a good handle on her. Shyvanna's problem is twofold, the first being lack of any c.c, no innate stuns, snares or roots make it very hard to get into melee without items. 

Her W is meant as a runspeed chasing mechanic but it doesn't last nearly long enough, while her passive allows it to last longer through melee attacks, it doesn't help when trying to chase someone.  You can either use W to intercept in which case you won't have it when they start to run, or you just run in without W and try and use it to catch up when they try and run away but then any snare on you means you aren't autoattacking and your W wears off fast.

Then her ultimate which seems really good on paper just doesn't seem to work in the field. The knockback on it just does not seem sufficient at all, it moves the enemy only a fraction and it's actually hard to position yourself to not knock them in a favorable position(back to their tower or into the bush) so even that means you're running around more than is necessary. You definitely cannot use her ult when chasing either for the same problems, you just end up helping them escape. 

The second problem is that her ult just makes her abilities aoe but her abilities on their own don't do very much damage at all, her autoattacks are where her dps is centered around.  So unless you build a full AP shy her ult is really lackluster

[Megrim]

Am I just a terrible jungler? I've been trying a couple chars no and I constantly get people bitching about not getting any ganks as early as level 4.  I get lanes dying left and right then blaming me when they're 0/4 at the 5min mark.  Then, when they're fed team starts pushing into my jungle and ganking me I get blamed for that too!

It might depend on who you're neutralling with, but it shouldn't really be your fault. At worst, most lanes should be able to just turtle up at their tower if they are losing the harass game. Then you sweep in and save them. But if they are 0/4 before you even get there, not much you can do apart from jumping that lane repeatedly in an attempt to equalize the situation.

I've played her a LOT since she was released since the character really appeals to me so I feel I've got a good handle on her. Shyvanna's problem is twofold, the first being lack of any c.c, no innate stuns, snares or roots make it very hard to get into melee without items.  

Her W is meant as a runspeed chasing mechanic but it doesn't last nearly long enough, while her passive allows it to last longer through melee attacks, it doesn't help when trying to chase someone.  You can either use W to intercept in which case you won't have it when they start to run, or you just run in without W and try and use it to catch up when they try and run away but then any snare on you means you aren't autoattacking and your W wears off fast.

Then her ultimate which seems really good on paper just doesn't seem to work in the field. The knockback on it just does not seem sufficient at all, it moves the enemy only a fraction and it's actually hard to position yourself to not knock them in a favorable position(back to their tower or into the bush) so even that means you're running around more than is necessary. You definitely cannot use her ult when chasing either for the same problems, you just end up helping them escape.  

The second problem is that her ult just makes her abilities aoe but her abilities on their own don't do very much damage at all, her autoattacks are where her dps is centered around.  So unless you build a full AP shy her ult is really lackluster

I was really struggling with her for a while, having the same problems as you do. Then I just started buying Boots 3 and enough points in the Util mastery for the speed boost. And possibly speed Quints. Also consider buying a Bilgewater. Once you start hitting 500ms, it doesn't even matter if they Flash or Ghost.

The ultimate is a bit different for her as well. Typically for most heroes, if you get into a big fight you tend to just blow all your cooldowns, ultimate included. She has to actually think about when and how to activate it, since using it will commit you to a prolonged fight. You're mistaken about the abilities imho, but this is because they're actually quite hard to pull off well. If you land an aoe fire-breath cone, then cleavebite someone with the armour debuff (and their friends around them), that does a LOT of damage. The biggest problem I have with that though, is her dragon form being so god damned clumsy to move and aim properly. Its like a somehow worse version of a fully grown Cho'Gath.

[Thrawn]

Am I just a terrible jungler? I've been trying a couple chars no and I constantly get people bitching about not getting any ganks as early as level 4.  I get lanes dying left and right then blaming me when they're 0/4 at the 5min mark.  Then, when they're fed team starts pushing into my jungle and ganking me I get blamed for that too!

I play jungle a lot.  Now I am by no means anywhere close to great at it but I've learned an important lesson, you will ALWAYS be blamed by lanes for anything that goes wrong.

Mid gives up FB, it's because you didn't gank.
Bot gives up 2 deaths, it's because you aren't counter jungling.
They get dragon, it's because you didn't take it the second it spawned.
Top gets outfarmed 150 - 10, it's because you didn't support him enough.

etc..etc..etc...

[Ice Cream Emperor]

After that I've been going fiddle but again, by level 4 he just doesn't seem beefy enough to do much besides harass a opposing lane.

Keep in mind that the people you are ganking are also going to be mostly level 4, and that you are going to have help. Gankers don't single-handedly kill people, they provide opportunities for the people in lane to kill their opponent. In Fiddle's case, if you run in, fear, and drain someone (especially someone who doesn't have a stun) then once you factor in your teammate(s) autoattacking, etc. they are probably going to be pretty fucked up. Especially if the opponents have pushed the lane and so have no easy way to retreat.

It's still worth doing this even if all you are doing is forcing someone to flash, or making your opponents paranoid.

[Thrawn]

It's still worth doing this even if all you are doing is forcing someone to flash, or making your opponents paranoid.

100% this.

Getting a lane to blow their summoners to escape your gank is huge.  Having a mid battle where their solo's flash is down and your solo's isn't makes it so much easier for your solo to kill them, and you should be ganking that lane again if at all possible while you know the escape is down.

[HaemishM]

Speaking of good deals on champs, I give you the Triple Threat Value Pack. Katarina, Miss Fortune and Xin Zhao for only 625 Riot Points. I already had Katarina, but for that price, I couldn't resist. Hell, Miss Fortune alone is 975 RP and I really like her as a ranged carry.

[statisticalfool]

Yeah, I thought about it, but I figure the only reason I'd be buying that is so I could buy a lot of awesome MF skins.

[HaemishM]

Heh, yeah, I'm tempted by at least 2 or 3 of her skins, especially the Waterloo skin. She's also just a good carry, though I got owned a bit in a game of Dominion with her at lunch. I blame my teammates. 

[Dark_MadMax]

I recently disovered Ryze. What an amazing AP he is! - you build  defense (banshees ,frozen heart) and it gives you damage! He has a nice burst and very tanky.

[DLRiley]

I recently disovered Ryze. What an amazing AP he is! - you build  defense (banshees ,frozen heart) and it gives you damage! He has a nice burst and very tanky.

Wait till you add mana per level runes on ontop of that.

[HaemishM]

Tried Shyvana at lunch today, just using her in a lane with a decent player using Fizz as my early lane partner. Our team was down 4v5 from the get go, but it took them 40 minutes or more to beat us, and they were carried by a turret ninja Yi. Still, Shyvana is pretty goddamn strong. Early on, I was battering the fuck out of the Taric/Tristana combo that we laned against, and won most straight up 1v1 fights. Late in the game she does seem to suffer a little unless using exhaust for a slow (and when the exhaust cooldown is refreshing), but man, she can dish out some damage, especially with attack speed items.

[Rasix]

Any advice for someone that's thinking about starting to  jungle?  I've got Shaco, Nocturne, GP, Nunu.  I'm most confident that I can do the route easily with Shaco.  With boxes you can start off and solo red/blue without any help.   I've seen (and tested) a route I like where you pile boxes at red, smite the blue wraith, and down red pretty easy.  Then you can either gank bot or continue your route.  Just not very experienced with Shaco in general, but I'm pretty sure I can play him AD solidly.

[Malakili]

Shaco jungle is something I hate playing against, for whatever its worth.  He is a good ganker, and his jack in the boxes give good vision/map control.   I've been playing Jungle Yi a bit lately with some pretty good success as well, and he is cheap if you want to buy him.

[Rasix]

I already have Yi (came in pack), just no experience playing him.

[Mosesandstick]

Nocturne is generally a fairly easy jungler. Make sure you pick up some armor seals, they're cheap and will help immensely.

[HaemishM]

Yi is a great jungler, especially good with attack speed weapons. What little I've played Shaco I didn't like him, but he is a goddamn nuisance to play against, especially if he's a good ganker.

[statisticalfool]

So this has all gotten a lot easier post mastery change: bad leash? Who cares? You're going to clear your jungle fast.

Nunu is by far the easiest of those to jungle, and has the smoothest transition. That said, your ganks are going to rely on coordination to work, and in the end, you've get a kinda tanky snowball/buff bot. But he's a really easy jungler to learn with, and if you like counter-jungling and abusing the other jungler, just run around their jungle and make them cry. (Really: more than anybody, buying wards on Nunu to ward their buffs is guaranteed hilarity, especially against newbie junglers who don't pull their buffs into the bush.)


Nocturne, those nerfs are pretty significant, but he's maybe the most consistently terrifying jungler. He exerts a lot of pressure. People get scared. Your ganks are easy. Also, he benefits greatly from that regardless of whether you get fed or not, he's still useful after the transition.

Yi is I think, trickier than he seems. I mean, his jungling is fine. But if he's going to do well, he needs CC coordination (or the opponents to be playing badly), and he needs to get some ganks to keep up. As opposed to Nocturne, an underfed Yi is just laughable...and the jungle isn't rich enough right now to feed you.

AD Shaco is high skill cap. High fun if you're doing well. But I feel like to do well with him, you have to really get how to be a son of a gun, do all sorts of clever tower dives, and be dropping boxes everywhere useful.  His teamfighting is kind of shitty* too, so if you're not putting out a lot of presence early, you're sort of missing the point with him. Let's not talk about AP shaco, okay?

* S tier split pusher though.

GP: I haven't really jungled with him much, so I'm not sure. He had problems with speed of routes/needing runes, but that's presumably fixed post-mastery change. His jungling's a little less braindead than anybody else: managing parley to get max gold is kind of tricky. He's good at punishing overextenders, but his ganks don't have as much versatility as say Shaco or Noct, but he's GP, so he's got utility. I just prefer playing him solo top.

[statisticalfool]

By the way, the new masteries pushed Jungle Rammus into a terror, especially if you've got money for armor quints.  He can now jungle fast, he's not sacrificing build, and he's got great, early ganks.

[Rasix]

Did pretty good with my first game as Wukong.  Opponents were pretty bad though.  In my 2v1 lane (we had jungle Lee Sin), the AP Sion looked like he was playing while reading notes and the Nid was pretty terrible.  They only managed to get me once and Lee Sin never felt like he needed to gank my lane.  Finished 11/2/16 with the last death coming at the very end when I was tower diving 3 of them at Nexus.  

Good damage and great escapes.  His E -> Q combo hits pretty damn hard.  People aren't expecting it (I wasn't).  Kept fat fingering his damn ulti due to his initiator being an e.  So used to leading with a q.  That w is so fun to have.

Still, very positive experience and seems like a summoner I'll be able to play pretty well.  Of course, could have just been luck and playing a bunch of muppets.

edit: Dragon lady is hard as fuck to chase down. 

[Mosesandstick]

Assuming you're safe and can get it off, an autoattack --> Q --> E combo does a fair bit more damage with Wukong.

[Rasix]

Tried out Noct's jungle path.  Really easy, easier than Shaco even, and you don't have to rely on boxes.  Shaco would make people rage more, but Nocturne seems like the most beginner friendly jungle option for me.   If only there were a way to ensure the other team had a jungler in blind pick.