The sorry state of cash-less payment today

[Jeff Kelly]

Today marks the fifth time in the last 2 years that Visa has suspended one of my CCs due to their automatic fraud prevention system. This time it was because I had the audacity to buy something online from an US merchant which somehow must have confused the computer responsible for checking transactions.

I understand, it's highly unusual for somebody in germany to buy something in the US, it's not as if we had the means to travel quickly between continents or access to a world wide communication network that enables us to buy stuff everywhere. Oh wait a minute....

The story will unwind as it has the last four times this has happened.

Nobody has contacted me or will contact me about the fact that my CC was suspended. I will only realize it the next time I want to pay something with my card. Error messages by CC terminals and ATMs will be less then helpful, because it won't state the obvious (your CC has been suspended) but instead offer some kind of confusing message instead (we don't accept cards from your bank, Please contact them for support)

Call center staff from Visa and my bank will have no way to access my account (for security reasons) and the flagged purchase doesn't show on my statement so I will have no way to check if it is a valid purchase or not. This is especially annoying because I'm 90% sure which billing was flagged. I'm also annoyed because it will be a billing that has been made every month for the past three years without any issue.

This will mean that the CC has to be cancelled and a new one to be issued. Which will mean that I'll have to wait for two to three weeks until card and PIN-number arrive. After that I will have to contact everyone that uses my CC number in order to update it and run the risk that any one of my subscription billings will raise another alarm with Visa fraud prevention (because it's a new card you see and this payment wasn't ever made on this new card) which will potentially restart the whole process from scratch.

My new card has lasted for three weeks before it was suspended, I haven't even updated the billing info with everyone yet.

After dealing with customer support from Visa ("I'm sorry, we can't help you. Please contact your issuing bank") and my bank ("This line is only open Mondays though Fridays from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m.) and being unable to spend any money this weekend I had  time to think about the sorry state of e-payment and cash-less payment in 2011.

So there is this card which promises me the ability to pay for goods and services anywhere in the world without the need to carry local currency around. That means if the store actually accepts the card. Since Visa and the other greedy fucks don't offer flat fees but rather 2.x % disagio on every purchase made and prevent you from charging the extra fee to your customer a lot of stores and businesses don't accept cards or only accept them over a certain purchase limit (which goes against Visa policy but who cares)

So I could at least withdraw money from ATMs everywhere? Yeah if the owner of the ATM actually allows you to withdraw money from other institutes but which usually means excessive ATM fees ($15 are not that uncommon). Good luck with getting cash from an ATM by the way if you currently have no money and the next one is s few miles away.

But I can at least buy stuff online? Yeah if processing of your CC actually works. Tough luck if your name and address contains non-ascii characters or if you are resident in a country that doesn't have states or if the name on your CC is written differently than the name on your ID etc.

The last time this has happened, it was because of Visa suspending all CC's issued before a certain date because of security flaws. This cost me a few hundred dollars to rectify because I had to call my family and friends from India and explain to them that they'll have to wire money to me by Western Union. After I was able to explain to the less than thrilled Hotel owner that I was intent on paying him just unable to do so right now. Next option would have been to call the German consulate.

So I'll probably go back to the way I traveled in the eighties and nineties. Carry three different CCs from three different companies with me and also a few hundred dollars in cash (dollars will be accepted almost everywhere) just to avoid the risk of ending up in Jail in New York or London because an overzealous computer suspended my account.

Which makes credit cards rather pointless if you have to basically assume that you won't be able to use them.

[Ironwood]

Did I ever tell you about the time I cancelled my cards because I thought I lost them and found them  - the SECOND I hung up the phone - in my shirt pocket ?

No ?

Probably because no-one cares.

 

[Der Helm]

Did I ever tell you about the time I cancelled my cards because I thought I lost them and found them  - the SECOND I hung up the phone - in my shirt pocket ?

I am pretty sure we all have been there.

Several times.

 

[Ironwood]

Just my point.

[Quinton]

The last time my visa card company detected "suspicious activity" (one $10 online purchase from a small shop), they sent me an email!  I could then log in to their website, review the questionable charge, and click the "no, I meant to buy that" button, at which point they left me alone.

It was shocking how painless the experience was.  Previously they'd call me or send me snail mail.

The last time they called me about something, I asked them how in the world was I expected to know that the random number they called me from actually *was* them and not a phishing attempt of some sort -- giving my CC number to anyone who calls me claiming to be my bank or credit card company seems like a bad decision.  They admitted that there really was no way for me to be sure it was them, and apparently harboured no ill-will when I said I'd call them back via the 800 number on the back of my credit card.

Every time I have ever cancelled a lost credit card, I have found it within 5 minutes of hanging up the phone. 

Payment systems *are* pretty broken.  Sadness.

[ghost]

So I'm hearing you bitch because your credit card company is trying to protect your interests?  Buying things in another country is a huge red flag.  I have had 3 credit cards "stolen" and people have tried to charge things in Singapore, Britain and Germany.  The fact that American Express caught on and denied the charges saved them thousands of dollars.

It sounds to me like you just need to suck it up and carry cash.  It would probably also be a good idea to call your credit card company and let them know when you are planning out-of-country purchases. 

[Morat20]

I've found it worthwhile to call your credit card company and advise them if you're going on a trip. I also do it for very large purchases.

Don't know about yours, but mine is happy to flag my account as "Due to travel to X, Y, Z on dates A-B".

Before I started doing that habitually when I left the country, I'd generally have a day or three of flack trying to do things like "pay for my fucking cruise" or "Buy shit in the Carribean".

[Merusk]

Yeah not only are they happy to do it, you can do it online OR over the phone weeks in advance or right up to the day before you travel.

Let's be clear on this, it's the Bank that's shut you off, not Visa.  You've got to take some responsibility yourself on this.  Things are like this because of the massive rewards of fraud.  The banking companies are going to protect themselves and the easiest way anymore is to just say "Turn it off" and apologize later because you couldn't be arsed to let them know.

If nobody contacted you, or you don't have the ability to notify the company about out of country purchases then either, you've got a shitty bank or you haven't set-up the services to do so and I'd bet on the latter.  I've worked with 4 different Credit companies (Dell, Bill Me Later, Chase and Capital One) and 3 banks (ING, USAA, 5/3) in the last 4 years and they've all offered me e-mail, phone and text alerts. All I had to do was go to the CS section of their site and turn them on or give them an e-mail address.

The rest of it is you ranting about banks making money.  Yes, they're shitty about it. We know.  Nothing's going to be done about it so either live with it or stuff your paycheck in a mattress and hope Spongebob, Patrick and Squidward don't decide you need to sleep better.

[Lt.Dan]

It's a pretty shitty system (whether it's the bank or Visa) that cuts off a customer without contacting them for verification or informing them of the reason for the suspension. 

We've recently moved to a separate lower credit-limit credit card that we use only for on-line purchases.  It was originally to reduce the impact of stolen credit card details or on-line fraud but would also be useful for you here.  At least if the bank cancels the card you don't have to reconfigure any automatic payments.

[Koyasha]

The part that baffles me about this is that you say you have to cancel the card and get a new one.    Having my card blocked because of suspicious activity can be annoying, but it's happened to me twice now (with American Express both times) and what happened was basically, I tried to use it, it got declined, a few moments later my phone rings and it's them checking to see if I'm making this charge.  The first time I missed the call and had to call them back, but I still got it sorted in about 10 minutes.

I can't even imagine a company that makes you cancel the card and get a new one issued, but I can say with absolute certainty that if I encountered such a thing I wouldn't be getting another card from that company.  It'd be cancelled permanently and I'd find some other card to do business with.  Visa and MasterCard are through banks (generally?  always?  Not sure.), so it sounds like you have an unbelievably horrible bank, not that this is a systemic issue with credit cards in general.

[Jeff Kelly]

Did I ever tell you about the time I cancelled my cards because I thought I lost them and found them  - the SECOND I hung up the phone - in my shirt pocket ?

No ?

Probably because no-one cares.

 

Hey, there#s a reason I started it in serious business 

[Jeff Kelly]

It's a pretty shitty system (whether it's the bank or Visa) that cuts off a customer without contacting them for verification or informing them of the reason for the suspension. 

We've recently moved to a separate lower credit-limit credit card that we use only for on-line purchases.  It was originally to reduce the impact of stolen credit card details or on-line fraud but would also be useful for you here.  At least if the bank cancels the card you don't have to reconfigure any automatic payments.

@all: Hey, I know it's a rant so bear with me:

Contacting the CC company does work if you know that you'll be out of country. It doesn't protect you against purchasing online though, because you usually cannot control which CC processor the service uses. For example until two years ago Amazon Germany still used the Amazon UK or Amazon US CC processing service even for purchases made from the German site, because the German Amazon didn't have it's own.

So every purchase made was flagged as occuring in the UK and US. Same with a lot of online services (dropbox for example or even Apple's MobileME). It's fairly common now at least in Europe to buy something online from a company anywhere in the EU so any one day my purchase history could be all over the place.

Your tip regarding a seperate CC might work, unfortunately additional CC's have a negative impact on credit histories (additional liabilities for debt) so there's a limit on how many cards you want to have.

I don't complain about the suspension per se, I get that it's a security measure. I complain about how they handle the suspension which has always been just shitty. I also sort of complain about a billing system that is so broken that they actually have to do suspensions automatically because fraud is so easy and prevalent.

My bank has never contacted me when this happened and even if they did, how on earth would I know that it's actually my bank and not some phishing site?

As for the "cancelling and reissuing" of cards. Visa can not access my statements because they are handled by my bank so I can not challenge suspensions by calling Visa. My bank doesn't allow their customer service reps to access my account details "for security reasons" so I can't challenge a suspension with them either. I cannot switch banks either because in my experience it's the same with most of the others too.

What would I expect? I'd expect them to just hold suspicious activity instead of suspending the whole card. I'd expect them to contact me if they do it, I'd expect them to implement security measures that don't lead to rampant theft of CC numbers and subsequent fraud so that they don't have to do that anymore.

Alternatively I'd be glad if as someone here desribed I could just log into my account online and just say "No I actually bought that".

If you use your CC online you simply have no control about how it's processed. You might be buying something from a company's domestic site and it might route payments through a CC processor in Pakistan for all that you know. So the simplest alternative probably would be to just use a second card for online payments and take the hit on my credit history.

[kaid]

I have had this happen a few times but its not a big deal. I would much rather they be a bit jumpy about out of this than to let people run wild on my credit cards. Normally when I have this issue its when I make a purchase thats out of character for my normal patterns. Every time I upgrade to a new puter I have to call in and let them know its going to happen or they will balk at it.

[Lantyssa]

If you use your CC online you simply have no control about how it's processed. You might be buying something from a company's domestic site and it might route payments through a CC processor in Pakistan for all that you know. So the simplest alternative probably would be to just use a second card for online payments and take the hit on my credit history.

I've been told, though years and years ago now, that three cards is the ideal.  I have three.  One for general purchases, one for a couple of set expenses or if they don't take the first, and a third for emergencies that might get used once every three years.  (All paid off monthly, which I believe is more important than the number of cards.)  My credit is about as close to perfect as actually possible.  I've had loan officers look at me in amazement, so one more card probably isn't going to hurt your score to any significant degree.

[Jeff Kelly]

Don't confuse the way American banks calculate credit scores, which is opaque and arcane with the German way credit scores are calculated, which is opaque and arcane in an entirely different way  .

There are three major scoring agencies in Germany that each use an entirely different way to calculate your score. One factor they all take into account is the amount of debt you could accumulate on short notice. If I have an overdraft limit on my checking account and limits on one or more CCs then the score declines as cards are added even though I might have never missed a payment in my entire life. The reasoning is that I somehow might use the credit limit all at once at some point which is a potential risk to other regulars payments.

[Lantyssa]

Then get one with a very low limit?

[Merusk]

Yeah, that. I could have a 3k or better limit on my current main card but I have them keep it at $1500, which I know I could pay off in a few months, if forced, but will still cover any major emergencies.  (The Auto-Only card is $3k.. I figure more than that and it's time to buy a new car.)

[ghost]

There are three major scoring agencies in Germany that each use an entirely different way to calculate your score. One factor they all take into account is the amount of debt you could accumulate on short notice. If I have an overdraft limit on my checking account and limits on one or more CCs then the score declines as cards are added even though I might have never missed a payment in my entire life. The reasoning is that I somehow might use the credit limit all at once at some point which is a potential risk to other regulars payments.

Isn't this exactly the same as in the US?

[MuffinMan]

I always thought high limits with low balances looked good here in the US so that at least sounds a little different. In the end, I don't think anyone really knows.

[lamaros]

Get a better bank.

[WindupAtheist]

We coulda let this go with Ironwood's "cool story bro" post.

[RhyssaFireheart]

We coulda let this go with Ironwood's "cool story bro" post.

I dunno, it does help to illustrate how fucked up banks are all over the place with how they handle credit any more.

Earlier this month the husband called to ask why we hadn't gotten our replacement BP cards since ours expired at the end of April.  We were told that they'd reviewed our account history and decided to not renew our account, despite the fact that it's been active for over 20 years now, we've never missed a payment, I'm making more money that I was at this time last year and we've paid down our debt by a good 10-12k.  That's apparently not good enough any more and it makes no fucking sense that banks can just do that to you for no apparent reason.

[ghost]

TThat's apparently not good enough any more and it makes no fucking sense that banks can just do that to you for no apparent reason.

Sure it does.  They are a private company and can really do business in any way that they see fit.  It sucks, yeah, but they have the right to do it.  So you just need to go get an Exxon or Shell card and tell BP to go suck a fatty. 

[Merusk]

we've never missed a payment, I'm making more money that I was at this time last year and we've paid down our debt by a good 10-12k. 

This right here?  That's why they didn't renew you.  They're not interested in good customers, only profitable ones.

[Mrbloodworth]

Yeah, they don't want you to pay your bills on time, or pay early. That's not how they make the $$$.

[Minvaren]

I always thought high limits with low balances looked good here in the US so that at least sounds a little different. In the end, I don't think anyone really knows.

Some available credit is good for the credit score.  Too much available credit freaks it out a bit - you could go out and run it all up on the spur of the moment.

[RhyssaFireheart]

I always thought high limits with low balances looked good here in the US so that at least sounds a little different. In the end, I don't think anyone really knows.

Some available credit is good for the credit score.  Too much available credit freaks it out a bit - you could go out and run it all up on the spur of the moment.

But do people really do that?  I mean enough to be more than a tiny statistical blip.

Sure it does.  They are a private company and can really do business in any way that they see fit.  It sucks, yeah, but they have the right to do it.  So you just need to go get an Exxon or Shell card and tell BP to go suck a fatty. 

Sadly, we have Exxon/Mobil, Shell and marathon cards as well.  Price of gas in Chicagoland means the cards fill up quick, esp. when you're spending ~$65/week to fill up around here.  And that's just for me.  Husband works closer to home, luckily, so he only fills up about every 7-8 days instead of every 4-5 like I have to. :( 

[Jeff Kelly]

Get a better bank.

That's not how F13 rolls.

[Ironwood]

Ain't that the truth.  We turn the burnt grass story into an epic mega thread with an attached Real Life Minigame.

[Sand]

Sadly, we have Exxon/Mobil, Shell and marathon cards as well. 

 

[Minvaren]

I always thought high limits with low balances looked good here in the US so that at least sounds a little different. In the end, I don't think anyone really knows.

Some available credit is good for the credit score.  Too much available credit freaks it out a bit - you could go out and run it all up on the spur of the moment.

But do people really do that?  I mean enough to be more than a tiny statistical blip.

Only thing I can say is that Fair Isaac - I mean "FICO" - uses it in their score calculations, so it's likely more than a statistical blip.

[RhyssaFireheart]

Sadly, we have Exxon/Mobil, Shell and marathon cards as well. 

 

What?

Amoco/BP card from college, when those were the stations around.  Shell card because the husband had that before we were married (more common where he was), Marathon card for traveling, Exxon/Mobil card because there are more of those around where we live now.  Why on earth would it be unusual to have more than one kind of gas card?

[ghost]

Ain't that the truth.  We turn the burnt grass story into an epic mega thread with an attached Real Life Minigame.

How's the crafting?

[Strazos]

Why on earth would it be unusual to have more than one kind of gas card?

Never met anyone who actually had gas cards, not to mention multiple cards.

Do they give discounts, or is it more to just parse out the gas expenses? Luckily I don't really drive nowadays, so even $4-5/gallon gas at the pump isn't much of an issue for me.

[Merusk]

Shell gives discounts if you use their card, I don't know about the others.  However, you have to make sure to pay it off monthly because your minimum APR is something like 15%.